Confused about the Mastered Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

I've never really got the idea of what this "form" was really supposed to be but I looked up the wikia and basically it says...

"The key to this state is energy conservation rather than boosted energy output. This results in a Saiyan who is able to fight longer and more efficiently than with the Ascended and Ultra stages of Super Saiyan"

So that makes sense but what I don't get is why such a thing was necessary to begin with. Goku despite mastering this Super Saiyan and supposedly being able to fight longer and having more stamina was more exhausted after his fight with Cell than he was with Frieza which was a longer fight and he was just the regular Super Saiyan.

I don't recall there ever being any mention of the Super Saiyan having this energy conservation problem in the first place.

The other thing that I don't get is that if this MSSJ is just the same as the regular SSJ with the exception that it could supposedly be use longer then why did that allow Goku to be able to put up such a good fight with Cell? Even if Goku could keep the Super Saiyan form up indefinitely shouldn't Cell just completely have wiped the floor with him just from having a lot more power?

He didn't flinch when the amped up ASSJ Vegeta kicked him in the neck but Goku as just a SSJ could hurt him by punching him and this was an even more powerful Cell?

The MSSJ like the SSJ should have the same 50x multiplyer from base form right? Does it mean that Goku and Gohan just raised there base power level so high which in turn raised there Super Saiyan power level high enough to be a match for Cell?

If Goku and Vegeta had the same base power level and Goku went MSSJ and Vegeta ASSJ wouldn't Vegeta beat the tar out of him just from the physical strength difference?

Based on how little time Goku fought Cell for wouldn't it have just been better for him to use his ASSJ form so he could have dished out more damage?

I don't get it.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The MSSJ like the SSJ should have the same 50x multiplyer from base form right? Does it mean that Goku and Gohan just raised there base power level so high which in turn raised there Super Saiyan power level high enough to be a match for Cell?

That's exactly what happened. The procedure of mastering Super Saiyan was the main source of Goku's & Gohan's gains from their training according to SEG.

If Goku and Vegeta had the same base power level and Goku went MSSJ and Vegeta ASSJ wouldn't Vegeta beat the tar out of him just from the physical strength difference?

I imagine that Vegeta would have the advantage in the beginning, but after some time he would get tired, and thus, weaker. Goku won't have this problem though.

Super Saiyan Grade 2 & Super Saiyan Grade 3 can be compared to Freeza's & Muten Roshi's Max Power states respectively. Max Power Freeza got tired after fighting SS Goku for a while, and Muten Roshi only had his Max Power state for using a Max Power Kamehameha. So, SSG2 is only good for fights against much weaker opponents (see: Super Vegeta vs 2nd Form Cell), and SS3 is only good for firing huge ki blasts. But when Super Saiyan 2 is achieved, it surpasses them all in everything, and has less strain on the body, so they become completely useless.

Based on how little time Goku fought Cell for wouldn't it have just been better for him to use his ASSJ form so he could have dished out more damage?

He could had used it for a few hits, and he could have used SSG3 for his Shunkan Ido Kamehameha. But Goku's goal wasn't to defeat Cell, he wanted Gohan to do it so that he would unleash his dormant power.

[gojirason]

I would think that being more relaxed and having less stress on the body would allow for bursts of higher power with less downside.

It's not so much that the multiplier increased as much as they're still capable of putting out more power more easily, ala Piccolo vs Gero.

SSJG2 is more powerful all around, but it's highly stressful to keep that motor running high at all times as opposed to bursting (and I highly doubt it actually can do that as well), which should give the same result for less continuous effort. That's normally not very easy with normal SSJ1 though, as it's already a stressful constant increase on the body, so SSJG2 really does address an issue they had. It's just that Full Power SSJ decided to "why does there need to be an obstacle in the first place?"

[Bullza]

I imagine that Vegeta would have the advantage in the beginning, but after some time he would get tired, and thus, weaker. Goku won't have this problem though.

That's true but Vegeta would win before he even got tired, he didn't seem that tired after fighting the two forms of Cell. With the extra power he should have then a few punches to Goku's gut and that'd be that.

He could had used it for a few hits, and he could have used SSG3 for his Shunkan Ido Kamehameha. But Goku's goal wasn't to defeat Cell, he wanted Gohan to do it so that he would unleash his dormant power.

I think if Goku could have won then he would have won, he gave it his all in order to try to stop Cell. If blowing the top half of his body off isn't trying to win then I don't know what is.

The point is that even with Goku's mastering the form so that he could fight longer he didn't actually fight that long and was still tired, he's fought longer as a Super Saiyan already. Vegeta probably spent more time fighting as a ASSJ. So how did Goku's mastering the form have any affect on that fight than if he'd just fought as a regular SSJ?

[sekzee]

That is because Vegeta had the advantage over Cell at the time, so he was not exerting himself the way Goku was while attempting to keep up with Cell.

[Super Vegetto]

Goku mastered SSJ so that he could achive full power without drawbacks, which were SSJG2-3.

When he got used to powered up form (regular SSJ), he could push SSJ to Full Power without his body having to evolve to contain the power, which happens with SSJ grades and ofc big drawbacks...

That's the whole point...

[sekzee]

Goku mastered SSJ so that he could achive full power without drawbacks, which were SSJG2-3.

When he got used to powered up form (regular SSJ), he could push SSJ to Full Power without his body having to evolve to contain the power, which happens with SSJ grades and ofc big drawbacks...

That's the whole point...

Your post seems to suggest MSSJ = SSJ + SSJG2/SSG3 power without the drawbacks. That is not the case.

[Super Vegetto]

Goku mastered SSJ so that he could achive full power without drawbacks, which were SSJG2-3.

When he got used to powered up form (regular SSJ), he could push SSJ to Full Power without his body having to evolve to contain the power, which happens with SSJ grades and ofc big drawbacks...

That's the whole point...

You post seems to suggest MSSJ = SSJ + SSJG2/SSG3 power without the drawbacks. That is not the case.

Actualy i point out that Full power SSJ = SSJG3 without drawbacks,,mastering SSJ was the only way to achive full power of SSJ the right way...

[Kaboom]

"Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different than regular Super Saiyan in terms of the power it grants the user. It's still a standard 50x boost instead of something greater like Grade 2 or 3. However, in addition to the obvious benefits of minimizing stress and energy drain to make the form super-easy to use in battle, being able to remain within the form for extended periods of time grants a huge boon to training. One of the Super Exciting Guide books actually points this out and credits it as a huge factor in Goku's power growth while he was in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Something about operating at such a higher level of power must make for drastic power increases, but it wasn't possible to do so for any worthwhile amount of time until Super Saiyan was mastered. So Goku didn't end up so much stronger than "Super Vegeta" and able to tango with Perfect Cell not just from mastering Super Saiyan alone, but by training so much with Gohan after doing so and greatly raising his overall power.

[Super Vegetto]

But mastered SSJ isn't official name and it basicly means controling 50x destructive power like if it's natural base,excluding anime episodes where Gohan can't control his powers yet, but is in right way.

Full Power SSJ in other hand is official name, and there must be a reason behind naming it Full Power of Super Saiyan form...

Also some guide names FPSSJ a Grade 4, which means that it should also be superior to normal SSJ in power...

[Cursed Lemon]

I interpret SSJG3 to more or less equal the pure ki output of a SSJ2, but with a markedly decreased speed that makes fighting a worthy opponent impossible.

Therefore, I believe that it is an "imperfect" version of SSJ2, rather than an extension of SSJ1.

What that makes SSJG2, I can't really say. As far as FPSSJ, it's not really a separate form, it's just being in better control of the SSJ state, which by definition is radical and untamed.

[Kaboom]

But mastered SSJ isn't official name and it basicly means controling 50x destructive power like if it's natural base,excluding anime episodes where Gohan can't control his powers yet, but is in right way.
Full Power SSJ in other hand is official name, and there must be a reason behind naming it Full Power of Super Saiyan form...

Honestly? Given the context of the picture used and the description within Daizenshuu #2... I think it's only called "full power" because it refers to when Goku finally went up to 100% against Cell after being chill and suppressed for the past 10 days. Which fits with how it's labeled as appearing only in Volume 34 and onward (34 starting with Goku's match with Cell), while he first emerged from the RoSaT halfway through 33.

Also, even though we know Gohan did the same thing, he's only labeled as "Super Saiyan" within the same guide.

Also some guide names FPSSJ a Grade 4, which means that it should also be superior to normal SSJ in power...

Going merely by that label, I guess you might find it implied... But reading carefully through that old guide's info as translated by Herms, it doesn't actually label 'Grade 4' as being stronger than the others or granting more power in and of itself. It just talks about how it comes more naturally and is easy to use.

[Pantalones]

It seems like the big difference that "mastering" Super Saiyan made was that staying in Super Saiyan for so long strengthens your body to resist the strain that the form normally puts on it, making you stronger overall (in both base and Super Saiyan forms.) Gaining just a few million in base form equates to gaining hundreds of millions in Super Saiyan, so it's no surprise that strengthening one's body to the point that SSj no longer strains it would provide a pretty significant boost in power.

So that makes sense but what I don't get is why such a thing was necessary to begin with. Goku despite mastering this Super Saiyan and supposedly being able to fight longer and having more stamina was more exhausted after his fight with Cell than he was with Freeza which was a longer fight and he was just the regular Super Saiyan.

Goku was significantly more powerful than Freeza from the moment he went Super Saiyan, while Freeza started to wear out and grow weaker after staying at his "100%" power for very long. Goku wasn't even hardly trying toward the end (heck, you could probably say he wasn't putting everything he had into the fight earlier on either, what with letting Freeza smack him in the face with a beam just to show how ineffective it would be and stuff like that), and even gave Freeza a second chance once he was cut in half by his own attack.

On the other hand, Cell was always one step ahead of him and the only reason Goku didn't get completely flattened in that fight was because Cell was still holding back some of his power so they could have a good fight... since Cell (well, Perfect Cell anyway) has that Saiyan-like "I want to fight strong guys" mindset, too. Goku wanted Gohan to be the one to beat Cell, hence why he gave up eventually rather than keeping on even after he was worn out and ending up in even worse shape... but he still had to give this fight everything he had just to stay even with Cell, and in the end it wasn't quite enough.

It makes sense to me that fighting someone more powerful than you would wear you out quicker than fighting someone who starts out weaker (and only gets even weaker from there as the fight drags on), at least. I would assume that the energy drain of standard Super Saiyan wasn't that severe (compared to the "Grade 2"/"Ascended" and "Grade 3"/"Ultra Super Saiyan" forms... and especially compared to SSj3!), so the major factor in how tired out he would end up in either fight is "how much energy is Goku using up throughout the fight" rather than "how much of a strain is the Super Saiyan form putting on him (or not, in the case of Cell.)" And the fight with Freeza wasn't really that long, either; wasn't it supposed to be less than 5 minutes? I'm not sure how long Cell vs. Goku might have taken, but it wasn't a 3-seconds-and-it's-over sort of thing at least.

[gojirason]

"Mastered" Super Saiyan is no different than regular Super Saiyan in terms of the power it grants the user. It's still a standard 50x boost instead of something greater like Grade 2 or 3. However, in addition to the obvious benefits of minimizing stress and energy drain to make the form super-easy to use in battle, being able to remain within the form for extended periods of time grants a huge boon to training. One of the Super Exciting Guide books actually points this out and credits it as a huge factor in Goku's power growth while he was in the Room of Spirit and Time.

Something about operating at such a higher level of power must make for drastic power increases, but it wasn't possible to do so for any worthwhile amount of time until Super Saiyan was mastered. So Goku didn't end up so much stronger than "Super Vegeta" and able to tango with Perfect Cell not just from mastering Super Saiyan alone, but by training so much with Gohan after doing so and greatly raising his overall power.

The only problem with this is that, greater increases training or not, once he actually got into the fight with Cell, he still had access to Grade 2. Vegeta and Trunks did too, against the Cell Juniors, in a relatively even fight even, but they weren't using it anymore after their second trip into the RoSaT and realizing what Goku did. Doing so didn't help them get super strong like Goku did either.

There are some distinctive differences between SSJFP and SSJ too, anyway, such as the ability to powerup in the form, and a different aura.
By concept, what higher stamina really allows him to do is fight harder, not less hard for longer; the latter doesn't make any sense to do against an Android, let alone one who can regenerate. He's also the one who berated Gohan for dragging the fight out, and Piccolo notes it's unusual for him to do so at all against 19.

I'm not saying the multiplier is any higher (and Cell stating that Trunks is stronger than he is might suggest that SSJG3 Trunks is stronger than FPSSJ Goku in raw power), but it does seem there is at least some kind of power advantage to achieving it, beyond just accelerated training results. That wasn't the reason Goku turned down the Grade forms in the RoSaT anyway, and he had no way of knowing it would make them stronger faster anyway.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That's true but Vegeta would win before he even got tired, he didn't seem that tired after fighting the two forms of Cell. With the extra power he should have then a few punches to Goku's gut and that'd be that.

Vegeta & Trunks didn't use the form against the Cell Jr.s they fought, and they were about equals. Goku also didn't use it against Cell, and they were also about equals. So, this implies that using SSG2 wouldn't help that much because it doesn't give a very significant boost, and it would probably turn against them, since it would tire them & make them weaker than the weaker-than-them enemies.

Against 2nd Form Cell, Vegeta didn't have to even try, so he didn't get tired. But he got very exhausted after using the Final Flash.

Honestly? Given the context of the picture used and the description within Daizenshuu #2... I think it's only called "full power" because it refers to when Goku finally went up to 100% against Cell after being chill and suppressed for the past 10 days. Which fits with how it's labeled as appearing only in Volume 34 and onward (34 starting with Goku's match with Cell), while he first emerged from the RoSaT halfway through 33.

No, it's talking about allowing Goku to use the full power of the Super Saiyan form because there is no strain anymore. The same name was used for Goku & Gohan in D10. And besides, it doesn't make sense for the section to be saying "This is Goku, using his full power!", since that section only divided a character when he had a different form or state, or when he changed significantly (like boy -> adult).

[Bullza]

Vegeta & Trunks didn't use the form against the Cell Jr.s they fought.

Trunks was using his his USSJ form against the Cell Jr and Vegeta was arguably using his ASSJ also. If it didn't look that way then it's due to the artwork.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trunks was using his his USSJ form against the Cell Jr and Vegeta was arguably using his ASSJ also. If it didn't look that way then it's due to the artwork.

It looks like that in the anime, but the manga is very clear that they are both regular Super Saiyans, and also hinted that they had mastered the form.

[sekzee]

The only problem with this is that, greater increases training or not, once he actually got into the fight with Cell, he still had access to Grade 2. Vegeta and Trunks did too, against the Cell Juniors, in a relatively even fight even, but they weren't using it anymore after their second trip into the RoSaT and realizing what Goku did. Doing so didn't help them get super strong like Goku did either.

That is because Vegeta opted to train alone, yet again, and Trunks was forced to as well.

Goku and Gohan had the benefit of the two truly pushing one another.

[Bullza]

It looks like that in the anime, but the manga is very clear that they are both regular Super Saiyans, and also hinted that they had mastered the form.

I was going by the manga. Trunks has the same spiky hair style he had when he used the USSJ.

Toriyama couldn't always clearly separate the appearance of the SSJ1 and SSJ2 very well so comparing a SSJ1 to a slightly bigger ASSJ when the images were from a distance aswell just isn't gonna happen. The anime portrayed it that way for a reason.

When was it hinted they mastered the form?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I was going by the manga. Trunks has the same spiky hair style he had when he used the USSJ.

Because his hair aren't tied.

Toriyama couldn't always clearly separate the appearance of the SSJ1 and SSJ2 very well so comparing a SSJ1 to a slightly bigger ASSJ when the images were from a distance aswell just isn't gonna happen. The anime portrayed it that way for a reason.

The difference between SS, SSG2, and SSG3 is very obvious. Vegeta & Trunks have their SS aura, and they don't have huge muscles like they did before. Just compare them.

The anime can be very inconsistent some times. SS2 Goku had his SS hairstyle some times during his fight with Vegeta.

When was it hinted they mastered the form?

They had the SSFP aura in some points, they had gotten much stronger in their SS forms like Goku & Gohan did, and it's not very hard to figure out how Goku & Gohan mastered the form.