The Newest Batch of Toriyama Tidbits...

[MagicBox]

These minor factoids are usually discussed in places like the "full color manga" thread when they're revealed, but I thought maybe they could use their own thread so that we wouldn't hijack another one. If this feels more appropriate in the "In-Universe" section, then I apologize. I put it here since these Q&A's sometimes reveal behind-the-scenes info in addition to in-universe stuff.

The main site has translated some new goodies for us, and I can't wait to hear everyone's thoughts.

Spoiler:

TaoPaiPai killing Mister Satan's master is my favorite, despite (and because of) how random the whole thing is. It's nice to know where Mr. Satan gets his "title" from, though.

I wonder how these little questionnaires between Toriyama and Ooishi really go. I doubt he comes into the room with all this stuff prepared. I bet he sits there for four or five minutes just saying "Uh... let me think, let me think... Oh! I got it!" That's what some of this stuff sounds like. I love it, though.

[omegalucas]

Liked the Boo being an immortal evil force that Bibidi managed to summon. Also funny how Beerus was the one who sealed Old Kaioshin in the Z sword

[UpFromTheSkies]

The most interesting part is that he says Goku won't become SS2 or SS3 any more after having become SSG, so it's official that GT didn't happen I think they should make GT a dream Beerus had while sleeping for 3 years after his fight with Goku.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

The staff members were right, there are various levels of "Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!" and "Cool, but did we need to know that?"while reading. Like always, at least as of late, lots of new and interesting info...coupled with basically an equal number of contradictions. Still, even if they are contradictory, I like hearing the things that rattle around in Toriyama's head.

The most interesting part is that he says Goku won't become SS2 or SS3 any more after having become SSG, so it's official that GT didn't happen

To be completely fair, he didn't say Goku wouldn't transform into those stages, he said he probably wouldn't. Which, if anything, may actually go right along with GT since SS2 was only used like once by Goku for a split second, and I don't think SS3's screen time amounted to more than a minute....

[Low Tone G]

The most interesting part is that he says Goku won't become SS2 or SS3 any more after having become SSG, so it's official that GT didn't happen I think they should make GT a dream Beerus had while sleeping for 3 years after his fight with Goku.

Yeah. But I will still miss Goku's departure with Shenlon from the end of GT. So Goku's base and SSJ were the form to master SSJ-G power later on.

[Kamiccolo9]

Ugh...not a big fan of the Buu "revelations." Although this one was kinda cool.

*By the way, since the bad Buu was pure evil, he was easily purified in the afterlife, and was able to be reincarnated as Uub right away.

So I guess that there is a direct correlation between how good or evil you are, and the amount of time it takes to be reincarnated?

[Marco Polo]

Mmh, the Buu origin thing is strange. How did he came into being if it wasn't Bibidi then?

I really like the other tidbits though. And while most of the Kais are scared shitless of Beerus, I can totally see the Old Kai not being afraid of him and annoying him over some trivial matter.

[Freeza Soldier #156]

Liked the Boo being an immortal evil force that Bibidi managed to summon.

I'm actually not sure that I really like this one. If Majin Buu had already been around since the beginning of time, wreaking havoc around the universe, then wouldn't the Kaioshin have known who Buu was? Why would they say that Bibidi created him when they knew that Buu had been around since long before Bibidi? I actually liked the original explanation much better: that Bibidi's creation of Buu was really a magical accident.

[Kamiccolo9]

Mmh, the Buu origin thing is strange. How did he came into being if it wasn't Bibidi then?

I really like the other tidbits though. And while most of the Kais are scared shitless of Beerus, I can totally see the Old Kai not being afraid of him and annoying him over some trivial matter.

Didn't the Old Kaioshin say that they enemy who sealed him wasn't as strong as Buu, though? That doesn't match up with BoG at all.

I do like Toriyama pointing out that Vegeta watches TV though

[Kaboom]

If Majin Buu had already been around since the beginning of time, wreaking havoc around the universe, then wouldn't the Kaioshin have known who Buu was?

Kaioshin has never come across to me as particularly well-informed...

The staff members were right, there are various levels of "Whaaaaaaaaaaat?!" and "Cool, but did we need to know that?"while reading. Like always, at least as of late, lots of new and interesting info...coupled with basically an equal number of contradictions. Still, even if they are contradictory, I like hearing the things that rattle around in Toriyama's head.

To be completely fair, he didn't say Goku wouldn't transform into those stages, he said he probably wouldn't. Which, if anything, may actually go right along with GT since SS2 was only used like once by Goku for a split second, and I don't think SS3's screen time amounted to more than a minute....

Yeah, I don't think we need to take that as, "Goku will never, under any circumstances, use Super Saiyan 2 or 3 again." If the fate of the Earth depends on him using Super Saiyan 3 for a total of five seconds, he's not going to refuse to do it. It only need mean that Goku realizes his base and mastered Super Saiyan forms are the best ones for battle, so he'll stick with those unless he really NEEDS something higher.

And since Toriyama says, "after the battle with Beerus," then considering Goku retained most or all of this god-power, he may very well never actually need SSJ2 or SSJ3 again.

[Marco Polo]

Didn't the Old Kaioshin say that they enemy who sealed him wasn't as strong as Buu, though? That doesn't match up with BoG at all.

Good point. Toriyama may have forgotten that. An in-universe explanation, however, could be that the Old Kai said that to keep Goku and Gohan focused on Buu. In BoG North Kai didn't want to tell Goku about the existence of Beerus so maybe the Old Kai thought the same thing in the Buu Saga.

Similarly, North Kai didn't want to tell Goku about Freeza way back in the Namek Saga.

[UpFromTheSkies]

The most interesting part is that he says Goku won't become SS2 or SS3 any more after having become SSG, so it's official that GT didn't happen

To be completely fair, he didn't say Goku wouldn't transform into those stages, he said he probably wouldn't.

Close enough

[UpFromTheSkies]

If Majin Buu had already been around since the beginning of time, wreaking havoc around the universe, then wouldn't the Kaioshin have known who Buu was?

Kaioshin has never come across to me as particularly well-informed...

Maybe Buu was stronger before absorbing other people, and being split up.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Didn't the Old Kaioshin say that they enemy who sealed him wasn't as strong as Buu, though? That doesn't match up with BoG at all.

Good point. Toriyama may have forgotten that. An in-universe explanation, however, could be that the Old Kai said that to keep Goku and Gohan focused on Buu. In BoG North Kai didn't want to tell Goku about the existence of Beerus so maybe the Old Kai thought the same thing in the Buu Saga.

Well, going by the Daizenshu timeline, the Elder Kaioshin was sealed ~75 million years before the Buu Arc. Very possible Beerus wasn't as strong as Buu when he sealed the the Kaioshin in the sword.

[Low Tone G]

Mmh, the Buu origin thing is strange. How did he came into being if it wasn't Bibidi then?

I really like the other tidbits though. And while most of the Kais are scared shitless of Beerus, I can totally see the Old Kai not being afraid of him and annoying him over some trivial matter.

Didn't the Old Kaioshin say that they enemy who sealed him wasn't as strong as Buu, though? That doesn't match up with BoG at all.

It's really strange indeed. I have not read that parts of the magna, but he says that anime the one who sealed him wasn't that strong like Buu, but was way more evil like Buu was, but also Beerus was proven to be not that evil at all in movie! The things with Beerus are totally opposite, as Beerus was may more powerful than the strongest Buu, and wasn't really evil, but Kid Buu really was, like Toriyama himself confirms it as Kid Buu was pure evil, and right away was reincarnated as Uub. Twisted!

Very possible Beerus wasn't as strong as Buu when he sealed the the Kaioshin in the sword.

Or wasn't a God of Destruction then, so wasn't that strong, but used to be very evil

[Freeza Soldier #156]

Or wasn't a God of Destruction then, so wasn't that strong, but used to be very evil

Toriyama states that it was a God of Destruction that sealed the Old Kaioshin up and then a few sentences later says that it was Beerus. He said that Beerus got annoyed at a meeting and that caused him to seal the Old Kaioshin away. It definitely sounds like something Beerus would do.

[Marco Polo]

Holy shit Beerus has lived for more than 75 million years?

[Herms]

Initial thoughts:

--The Satan and his master vs Tao Pai Pai thing is a tad odd when considering official ages and the timeline and whatnot. Satan's supposed to be the same age as Kuririn, so he'd still be a kid when Tao Pai Pai got beaten by Goku. Meaning either the barroom brawl happened with cyborg TPP (would they really casually make fun of a cyborg dude?), or Satan became world champion while still in his early teens.

--Buu's new origin (or lack thereof) is weird. On the one hand, it explicitly goes against what we were told before, but then, Toriyama acknowledges that right out if the gate, so it's not just some brain fart. But I don't understand the point of changing Buu's backstory, unless Toriyama was concerned Buu was too much like Cell, being an artificially created creature. Actually, this new version of early Buu sounds really similar to Beerus (sleep, destroy, sleep, destroy). So maybe Toriyama is trying to tie the too together, hinting at Buu being some long-forgotten elder God of Destruction?

--I love his the aside on evil Buu's quick reincarnation time has seemingly no connection whatsoever to the main question about candy.

--The spell for sealing away Buu gets my vote for most baffling. Why did Toriyama decide to share this? I'm not complaining, but it just seems so...random, weird, etc. and unlike Toriyama to sketch in so specific a detail. Unless there's some hidden pun/joke/reference I'm just not getting. Also, in light of Buu's new origin, shouldn't this actually be a spell to put Buu back to sleep?

--I really like the idea of Kaioshins working in shifts, and one taking over when another dies by "growing like a plant", and all that. It just...contradicts a lot. First of course it doesn't seem to fit Toriyama's prior Q&A origin for the Kaioshins. Worse, the idea of there being three Kaioshins is hard to reconcile with the manga, where we're told there were five, before four were killed/absorbed by Buu, at which point they were pointedly not replaced by anyone. We even see Elder Kaioshin die in the manga, and nobody sprouts up to replace him. The 75,000 year life span is the same as Toriyama gave in the SEG for Shinjin/Core People, but now that it's applied specifically to the Kaioshin, it ends up explicitly contradicting the official timeline, which has East Kaioshin living at least 5 million years (before, we could at least say golden fruit Shinjin were an exception or something).

--So, Beerus sealing Elder Kaioshin away. I like that Toriyama is trying yo integrate Beerus into the previously established DB world as much as possible, but I feel like "Beerus did it" is starting to become a default explanation (why is Kaio's planet so small? Why did Freeza destroy Planet Vegeta? What killed the dinosaurs?). Toriyama's explanation here doesn't match what Elder Kaioshin says in the manga very well either. In the manga, EK says he got sealed away by a super strong, super evil dude (that was still weaker than Buu), because the guy was afraid of EK's power-up ability. Here, Toriyama says it was because EK got into an argument with Beerus (a not all that evil guy who's way stronger than Buu) over some piddling little thing. Maybe they were arguing about EK's power-up ability, and EK underestimates Beerus' power? But you'd think EK would actually mention during the course of BoG that he had this prior encounter with Beerus. Maybe.

--Toriyama's explanation for how 18 fell for Kuririn is, actually, the same exact thing he said in Daizenshuu 7's "character secrets"page.

--The bit on Super Saiyan 2/3 seems like a callback to Goku's comments in the series about the "Grade" forms' drawbacks and how regular SSj is the most balanced. Toriyama also seems to be implying that rather than going endlessly forward with new Super Saiyan forms, the real secret is to perfect the basic form. Compare with the end of BoG where Goku absorbs the Super Saiyan God power and does better as a regular SSj than he did before as a SSj3. And angry regular SSj Vegeta apparently surpassing SSj3 Goku. And Toriyama's comments about giving SSj God a simple design because he thought Goku was getting too elaborate with his transformations. And the whole concept of EK's power-up and Ultimate Gohan. I'm not even sure what I'm trying to say, there just seems to be a common thread here.

[Jackal puFF]

That's pretty cool for Satan to survive a cyborg TPP attack.

[Low Tone G]

Or wasn't a God of Destruction then, so wasn't that strong, but used to be very evil

Toriyama states that it was a God of Destruction that sealed the Old Kaioshin up and then a few sentences later says that it was Beerus. He said that Beerus got annoyed at a meeting and that caused him to seal the Old Kaioshin away. It definitely sounds like something Beerus would do.

Yeah, as he was annoyed by Mr. Buu and wanted destroy the Earth only has hasn't gotten pudding. I wouldn't be surprised if a food case would have been occured when Olda Kai got sealed away.

Anyway.....
As the Old Kai sad he was very evil, but not as strong like Buu could mean that he treated Beerus very bad for sealing him , but if he would mention Beerus to stronger than Buu it was considered dangerous for him as being affraid that will get sealed again by him..

Just speculating!