SS3 Gotenks and SS3 Chibi Goku

[Dominator]

Now, we all know that during GT Goku couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 unless he had a tail. Presumably this form of Goku was older than Goten and Trunks of the Buu saga at the time of their Fusion.

How is that a fusion of two child Super Saiyans can reach Super Saiyan 3 by just trying (was Gotenks already in Super Saiyan 2 when he powered up?) and Goku can't?

[VegettoEX]

How is that a fusion of two child Super Saiyans can reach Super Saiyan 3 by just trying (was Gotenks already in Super Saiyan 2 when he powered up?) and Goku can't?

Mystical properties of the fusion .

[Dayspring]

How is that a fusion of two child Super Saiyans can reach Super Saiyan 3 by just trying (was Gotenks already in Super Saiyan 2 when he powered up?) and Goku can't?

Mystical properties of the fusion .

I agree. He doesn't seem capable of going SSJ2 for some reason. I think SSJ2 and/or SSJ3 are about strength AND anger, so fusion probably helped them reached the amount of energy they needed. Neither Goten nor Trunks can go higer than SSJ, but Gotenks can, and when he does he just skips straight into SSJ3.

[Metrite]

Now, we all know that during GT Goku couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 unless he had a tail.

You must have missed GT. Goku did go ssj3 wothout a tail, he just wasn't able to handle it for as long(he said it was because of how small his body now was). He later gets his tail back and that didn't help that problem any. I don't think it's ever explained why size would matter. Oh well, when thinking of something like that, I guess it's just best to remember the general rule of GT: if it happened in GT, it couldn't have happened in DB/Z(which is true, seeing how GT's story's soul purpose was to contradict everything from it's predecessor ).

[Dayspring]

Now, we all know that during GT Goku couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 unless he had a tail.

You must have missed GT. Goku did go ssj3 wothout a tail, he just wasn't able to handle it for as long(he said it was because of how small his body now was). He later gets his tail back and that didn't help that problem any. I don't think it's ever explained why size would matter. Oh well, when thinking of something like that, I guess it's just best to remember the general rule of GT: if it happened in GT, it couldn't have happened in DB/Z(which is true, seeing how GT's story's soul purpose was to contradict everything from it's predecessor ).

Actually a lot of GT could have taken place if handled differently. Pilaf turning Goku into a kid was stupid, but could have happened with the regular DBs (Pilaf being used was based on Toriyama saying that Pilaf never quit looking for the DBs and trying to take over the Earth). When asked if Pilaf had another wish, Goku could have jumped in and said "No! Now make it so Pilaf can never find the DBs!" Oopsy! Shenron grants the wish by scattering them all over the universe. Now Goku has to go get them all or face the wrath of Chichi.

That's just one example of how to make GT fit while removing plotholes, etc. Back on topic, SSJ3 Goku's problems weren't GT only. GT explained that, as a kid, he's more or less weaker than before. Goku as an adult couldn't even control SSJ3 very long, so what hope does Goku as child have?

[Metrite]

Pilaf turning Goku into a kid was stupid, but could have happened with the regular DBs

Not really, since they can't affect anyone too strong(so it would just be, "your wish can't be granted"). It's true that some ideas in GT could have had potential if done differently in a different story that made sense, but since the writers were going out of their way to contradict everything on purpose(it had to be, how in the world could any officail writers ever make so many huge, countless plotholes if they had ever really seen DB?), that kinda became the general rule of the GT we ended up with.

[Dayspring]

Pilaf turning Goku into a kid was stupid, but could have happened with the regular DBs

Not really, since they can't affect anyone too strong(so it would just be, "your wish can't be granted"). It's true that some ideas in GT could have had potential if done differently in a different story that made sense, but since the writers were going out of their way to contradict everything on purpose(it had to be, how in the world could any officail writers ever make so many huge, countless plotholes if they had ever really seen DB?), that kinda became the general rule of the GT we ended up with.

Dende is an extremely powerful Kami compared to when he was first "inaugurated". 15 years since Buu? It's more than possible they could simple say he became strong enough so that Shenron no longer has to adhere to that rule.

[Metrite]

It's more than possible they could simple say he became strong enough so that Shenron no longer has to adhere to that rule.

If they wanted it to make sense(it was a stupid idea, anyway), but Dende becoming over a hundred times more powerful than the one before him ever was in just a couple of decades seems pretty crazy (plus it wouldn't be too good for the story, the whole point of the rule that they can't affect anybody too strong was always apparently there because it would be pretty lame if they could have ever simply wished away enemies).

[Victator Supreme]

Turning Goku into a child would be easy for Shenron. A wish like kill Goku, or take all of his power would not work. There is nothing to suggest Shenron could not turn Goku into a child.

The only times he was unable to grant a wish was

When Oolong asked him to kill the saiyans.

When Kuririn wished for 18 to be turned back into a normal human.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

Now, we all know that during GT Goku couldn't go Super Saiyan 3 unless he had a tail. Presumably this form of Goku was older than Goten and Trunks of the Buu saga at the time of their Fusion.

What? Goku couldn't go SSJ3 in GT without a tail? I think you're mistaken, especially after seeing Goku go SSJ3 and fight Bebi before the Earthlings where moved to Plantsei.

[DBZ MAN]

Yeh he could of still transformed to ssj 3 if he did not have the tail.
Just because they do not show that does not mean he can't.

[Dayspring]

It's more than possible they could simple say he became strong enough so that Shenron no longer has to adhere to that rule.

If they wanted it to make sense(it was a stupid idea, anyway), but Dende becoming over a hundred times more powerful than the one before him ever was in just a couple of decades seems pretty crazy

15 years is crazy? That's a hell of a long tme! We're always being shown that the characters are makng huge progress in short amounts of time, and you think 15 years is a short period to gain strength in? He shows up and his DBs are already at least twice as powerful than Kami's! Then the Buu saga comes along 7 (or 6, I always mix up) years later and he's already increased them to granting 3 wishes. Now add 15 years. There's no telling how powerul the DBs could have become.

[Chaos Saiyajin]

15 years is crazy? That's a hell of a long tme! We're always being shown that the characters are makng huge progress in short amounts of time, and you think 15 years is a short period to gain strength in? He shows up and his DBs are already at least twice as powerful than Kami's! Then the Buu saga comes along 7 (or 6, I always mix up) years later and he's already increased them to granting 3 wishes. Now add 15 years. There's no telling how powerul the DBs could have become.

The dragonballs can grant three wishes in the Majin Buu saga?

[BlaZin]

^^Yeah according to the magna. Dende recreated the dragon balls making Shenron able to grant three instead of one. I think someone mentioned that somewhere around here before. The dub just leaves out a third wish for reasons unknowned to me.

[Socar15]

^^Yeah according to the magna. Dende recreated the dragon balls making Shenron able to grant three instead of one. I think someone mentioned that somewhere around here before. The dub just leaves out a third wish for reasons unknowned to me.

I'm not sure where you're referring to, but I'm looking at the manga right now, and the discussion between Bulma, Goku and Piccolo clearly indicates that it can only grant 2 wishes. Bulma mentions how she's worried that her parents will be killed, and Goku mentions that they can be brought back to life with the dragon balls. Bulma then mentions that the whole city will also be destroyed, and Goku says they can use the wish after that to restore it to the way it was. Piccolo then says that it won't work because they already used the first wish to revive people back to life. So there are clearly only 2 wishes. However Porunga on Namek can grant 3 wishes.

[Dayspring]

^^Yeah according to the magna. Dende recreated the dragon balls making Shenron able to grant three instead of one. I think someone mentioned that somewhere around here before. The dub just leaves out a third wish for reasons unknowned to me.

I'm not sure where you're referring to, but I'm looking at the manga right now, and the discussion between Bulma, Goku and Piccolo clearly indicates that it can only grant 2 wishes. Bulma mentions how she's worried that her parents will be killed, and Goku mentions that they can be brought back to life with the dragon balls. Bulma then mentions that the whole city will also be destroyed, and Goku says they can use the wish after that to restore it to the way it was. Piccolo then says that it won't work because they already used the first wish to revive people back to life. So there are clearly only 2 wishes. However Porunga on Namek can grant 3 wishes.

I'm talking about when the wish was first used. Shenron says he can grant three wishes, and then when Goku telepathically tells Dende that a wish was made, Dende tells Goku that the DBs will regenerate in only 4 months provided the other two wishes aren't made.

[Socar15]

I'm talking about when the wish was first used. Shenron says he can grant three wishes, and then when Goku telepathically tells Dende that a wish was made, Dende tells Goku that the DBs will regenerate in only 4 months provided the other two wishes aren't made.

Yep you're right. That's weird. I guess Toriyama probably just forgot that he had made it 2 wishes back in the Cell saga. Oh well.

[Dayspring]

I'm talking about when the wish was first used. Shenron says he can grant three wishes, and then when Goku telepathically tells Dende that a wish was made, Dende tells Goku that the DBs will regenerate in only 4 months provided the other two wishes aren't made.

Yep you're right. That's weird. I guess Toriyama probably just forgot that he had made it 2 wishes back in the Cell saga. Oh well.

7 (or 6? Dammit!) years went by. I figure it's from Dende getting stronger and/or reshaping them that a third wish appeared.

[Socar15]

7 (or 6? Dammit!) years went by. I figure it's from Dende getting stronger and/or reshaping them that a third wish appeared.

It was 7 years. And yeah, I would say that's a definite possibility at least as far as keeping things consistent, though to be honest Toriyama might have just plain forgotten. I'll just go ahead and look on the positive side of things and believe in your explanation.