Was Android arc Piccolo the weakest among the adult aliens?

[Angelus]

Excluding Tien, since a lot of people still consider him just human.

With that said, among the adults, was Piccolo (pre-Kami fusion) largely behind SSJ Future Trunks, Vegeta, and Goku?

Would the pecking order go like this?

1st and 2nd place: Either SSJ Goku or SSJ Vegeta
3rd place: SSJ Future Trunks
4th place: Piccolo (pre-Kami fusion)

Could you estimate how much weaker Piccolo was compared to the Super Saiyans? Was he atleast 5x or 3x weaker than say Future Trunks or Vegeta/Goku?

Could Piccolo get beaten easily by SSJ Future Trunks?

[Kaboom]

No good way to tell. How much stronger Piccolo or Trunks each became from training is largely up to personal opinion.

[Darkron2151]

If I were to rank them, I'd say:

• SSJ Vegeta: 25.6
  SSJ Goku: 24
  SSJ Future Trunks: 20
  Piccolo: 14.4
  Piccolo (Kami-Fusion): 36

I wouldn't put the Super Saiyans multi-fold greater than Piccolo, but he's still a good deal weaker. Mostly because Krillin not only compared his power to be around the same ballpark as a Super Saiyan (IMO Namek SSJ Goku-ish), but also because of his feats against the likes of Android 20, even after he absorbed energy from the Z Fighters.

[Vice]

If you're asking if he was behind the Super Saiyans, then yes, of course he was.

[Angelus]

If you're asking if he was behind the Super Saiyans, then yes, of course he was.

Well mainly that was the question but the other question was how far behind was he from, the presumed weakest Super Saiyan, Future Trunks? Could Super Saiyan Trunks effortlessly trash pre-Kami fusion Piccolo?

[Vice]

I don't think the plot would ever allow for a main character to be fodderized by another unless the difference was like that between a Super Saiyan and a human, but Trunks was definitely stronger than Piccolo at that point. Wouldn't trash him though.

[Galan007]

Personally, I think SSJ Trunks was significantly beyond pre-fusion/Android-arc Piccolo.

After Fusing with Nail on Namek, Piccolo could only stalemate 2nd form Freeza(PL=a little over 1m.) When Trunks went SSJ against Freeza/Cold, his ki was stated to be the same as Goku's was on Namek(PL=150m.) There were a total of 4 years between the end of the Namek-arc, and the beginning of the Android-arc. Even if we assume Trunks didn't become any more powerful during that years-long hiatus, Piccolo still would've had to increase his power by well over 100x just to even think about posing a challenge. Sans highly specialized training, like the RoSaT and/or fusion(neither of which he received), I see no possible way for him to have increased his power that much.

[Hitiro]

Personally, I think SSJ Trunks was significantly beyond pre-fusion/Android-arc Piccolo.

After Fusing with Nail on Namek, Piccolo could only stalemate 2nd form Freeza(PL=a little over 1m.) When Trunks went SSJ against Freeza/Cold, his ki was stated to be the same as Goku's was on Namek(PL=150m.) There were a total of 4 years between the end of the Namek-arc, and the beginning of the Android-arc. Even if we assume Trunks didn't become any more powerful during that years-long hiatus, Piccolo still would've had to increase his power by well over 100x just to even think about posing a challenge. Sans highly specialized training, like the RoSaT and/or fusion(neither of which he received), I see no possible way for him to have increased his power that much.

I think you are confusing the statement with Trunks being like Goku when he was fighting against Freeza and King Cold. What was actually said wasn't in reference to Ki size. But rather how the Ki felt. What Gohan was saying was "This Ki feels like Dad's back then!" not "This Ki is as strong as Dad's back then!" We know that the characters can distinguish whether a Saiyan is a SSJ or not through the feel of their Ki. A SSJ's Ki feels different from a base Saiyan's Ki.

Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).

In all eventuality it is understandable that it is like this because Goku was severely depowered on Namek due to fighting Freeza before he transformed. Unless you are of the mind he recovered then it is more than likely he was fighting at a fraction of his full strength against Freeza. Freeza was also injured by the Genki Dama so his 100% is going to be different if he is injured. It makes the scene more believable because Trunks would be stronger than Gohan's father but Gohan would just chalk this down to Goku being at full power. Whereas if he was at full strength on Namek then it would have left questions. If Trunks is weaker than Goku at 100% then Gohan would have wondered why his father has gotten weaker since he last sensed him.

[freezamite]

If you're asking if he was behind the Super Saiyans, then yes, of course he was.

Well mainly that was the question but the other question was how far behind was he from, the presumed weakest Super Saiyan, Future Trunks? Could Super Saiyan Trunks effortlessly trash pre-Kami fusion Piccolo?

Piccolo was at SSJ Trunks level at that time. The proof is the beating he gives to A20. If they fought I would give the edge to Piccolo because as a fighter he is better than Trunks.

But rather how the Ki felt. What Gohan was saying was "This Ki feels like Dad's back then!" not "This Ki is as strong as Dad's back then!" We know that the characters can distinguish whether a Saiyan is a SSJ or not through the feel of their Ki. A SSJ's Ki feels different from a base Saiyan's Ki.

Yes, it's completely normal for Gohan to sense a Ki much larger than his dad and to say "it's dad's ki" without even commenting on the power gap! In fact, when Goku found Pilaf for the first time he thought "wow, he is stronger than myself in the future after transforming into a SSJ3" but he didn't tell us to make things more interesting.

Trunks had the same power Goku had on Namek, and the proof is Gohan saying what he says. Your point is that since Gohan can distinguish whether a Saiyan is a SSJ or not when he says "equals" he means "the type of ki" but the fact is that Gohan could also distinguish THE SIZE of the kis and to say that a much larger Ki than the one his father had was "his father's ki" (and that's reinforced by the fact that once they know about the existence of Trunks they can differentiate him from the rest of the SSJ which means that despite being a SSJ type of ki it still was different than the one Goku had, even if only slightly) makes no sense.

You don't say "that's my car" in front of a Ferrari only because your Skoda is of the same colour. If Trunks had been stronger than Goku, then Gohan would have said so. Furthermore, we latter see Goku demonstrating that he's at Trunks level after saying that he didn't have time to train besides learning the shunkanido and how to transform at will which further confirms that Trunks and Goku had the same power level more or less.

[Hitiro]

Yes, it's completely normal for Gohan to sense a Ki much larger than his dad and to say "it's dad's ki" without even commenting on the power gap! In fact, when Goku found Pilaf for the first time he thought "wow, he is stronger than myself in the future after transforming into a SSJ3" but he didn't tell us to make things more interesting.

I'm sorry. But if someone is injured and fighting at 100% of his strength which would be weaker than them fighting at 100% without injury the were would not be any comment in the power gap. Are you telling me Gohan is going to say "Oh! He's stronger than before but that is probably because he was injured on Namek and now he isn't injured!" I don't think so. I would also appreciate it if you kept your attitude out of the discussion. I, or anybody else on this site, don't need your condescending tone added to this discussion. As with what the Strength Checker says Gohan never mentions Ki size when thinks that this power is his fathers. If you want to say that he would comment on a power gap then that is unavoidable if Goku was as strong now as we as back on Namek. Because Trunks isn't going to be exactly equal to Goku. We even know that Goku is superior to Trunks because his finger blocking the sword feat shows that Goku is superior even while both of them are fighting suppressed.

Trunks had the same power Goku had on Namek, and the proof is Gohan saying what he says.

No Gohan just proves that the Ki he is sensing is a SSJ Ki. And at the time the only SSJ Ki Gohan has ever sensed was his fathers. Regardless of size its easy for him to be mistaken by this.

Your point is that since Gohan can distinguish whether a Saiyan is a SSJ or not when he says "equals" he means "the type of ki" but the fact is that Gohan could also distinguish THE SIZE of the kis and to say that a much larger Ki than the one his father had was "his father's ki" (and that's reinforced by the fact that once they know about the existence of Trunks they can differentiate him from the rest of the SSJ which means that despite being a SSJ type of ki it still was different than the one Goku had, even if only slightly) makes no sense.

I honestly don't see how this makes no sense. Gohan never says "equals" he just says that the Ki that they are sensing is the same as his dads back when he was a SSJ. You don't seem to understand that an injured Goku is going to have a weaker Ki size than an uninjured Goku. So it doesn't matter what size the Ki is at this point. Because a SSJ Ki is a SSJ Ki no matter what size it is. It wouldn't be weird for the size to be different considering this would be an assumed uninjured Goku's Ki size. Gohan only ever sensed his fathers SSJ Ki while his father was injured. So he has nothing to base Goku's uninjured SSJ Ki on.

You don't say "that's my car" in front of a Ferrari only because your Skoda is of the same colour. If Trunks had been stronger than Goku, then Gohan would have said so. Furthermore, we latter see Goku demonstrating that he's at Trunks level after saying that he didn't have time to train besides learning the shunkanido and how to transform at will which further confirms that Trunks and Goku had the same power level more or less.

But you can say "that's my car" when presented with a Ferrari exactly like your own. The only difference is that this Ferrari has better horsepower than your Ferrari because your Ferrari is a little worse for wear. If cars could heal over time like biological creatures you would think it is par for the course for your Ferrari to have more horsepower after not seeing it for some time. If Trunks is stronger than Goku then Gohan would have assumed this was Goku's true power without injury. Nothing more. Nothing less. What we see later from Goku is that Goku is superior to Trunks even while suppressed. Because he blocks all of Trunks attacks with just his finger. Barely moving. Trunks even says "I have a little hope now that I've seen your strength." Why would Trunks say that if they are equal? Because we know Trunks can't beat an Android. Yet after seeing Goku's strength, which by your admission is practically equal to Trunks, Trunks has hope Goku can win with a similar battler power? Shouldn't Trunks be saying that Goku needs to train hard to beat these Androids because as he is now he doesn't stand a chance? Where is the hope here?

[freezamite]

I'm sorry. But if someone is injured and fighting at 100% of his strength which would be weaker than them fighting at 100% without injury the were would not be any comment in the power gap. Are you telling me Gohan is going to say "Oh! He's stronger than before but that is probably because he was injured on Namek and now he isn't injured!" I don't think so. I would also appreciate it if you kept your attitude out of the discussion. I, or anybody else on this site, don't need your condescending tone added to this discussion. As with what the Strength Checker says Gohan never mentions Ki size when thinks that this power is his fathers. If you want to say that he would comment on a power gap then that is unavoidable if Goku was as strong now as we as back on Namek. Because Trunks isn't going to be exactly equal to Goku. We even know that Goku is superior to Trunks because his finger blocking the sword feat shows that Goku is superior even while both of them are fighting suppressed.

Goku was injured but he regained his strength because of the rage. I mean, I understand chapter 325 of the manga is one of your worst nightmares but it's there, it exists, its real, and it proves that Goku regained all his strength when he transformed due to his feelings towards krilin's death.

To me what's condescending is to defend a stance without listening at other people's arguments and repeat one time after another things that have been demonstrated false multiple times. Look, I recall you saying that Goku didn't dodge Freezer's kienzan only to support your stance that Goku was as weakened in chapter 325 as he was in chapter 317 which is only a proof of how far you will be able to go in order to never admit that you can be wrong on something.

No Gohan just proves that the Ki he is sensing is a SSJ Ki. And at the time the only SSJ Ki Gohan has ever sensed was his fathers. Regardless of size its easy for him to be mistaken by this.

And like always, your only way to argue about something is to use the straw man fallacy. No one's saying that Gohan wasn't confused by the SSJ Ki, what I'm telling to you is that for Gohan to say "it's father with the same ki" makes no sense if Trunks is much stronger. Why would us as readers assume something isn't stated anywhere?

Your point is that since Gohan can distinguish whether a Saiyan is a SSJ or not when he says "equals" he means "the type of ki" but the fact is that Gohan could also distinguish THE SIZE of the kis and to say that a much larger Ki than the one his father had was "his father's ki" (and that's reinforced by the fact that once they know about the existence of Trunks they can differentiate him from the rest of the SSJ which means that despite being a SSJ type of ki it still was different than the one Goku had, even if only slightly) makes no sense.

I honestly don't see how this makes no sense. Gohan never says "equals" he just says that the Ki that they are sensing is the same as his dads back when he was a SSJ. You don't seem to understand that an injured Goku is going to have a weaker Ki size than an uninjured Goku. So it doesn't matter what size the Ki is at this point. Because a SSJ Ki is a SSJ Ki no matter what size it is. It wouldn't be weird for the size to be different considering this would be an assumed uninjured Goku's Ki size. Gohan only ever sensed his fathers SSJ Ki while his father was injured. So he has nothing to base Goku's uninjured SSJ Ki on.

Look, it's a bit weird how you now insist on the fact that Goku was injured (it took me months of discussion with you to make you admit that injured fighters lose strength, but at least this means we are making some progresses) but what can't be denied is that Goku has more power in chapter 325 than he had in chapter 317. Goku regained the strength he lost (and increased it further) because of the rage and that's stated in the manga. Period.

You don't say "that's my car" in front of a Ferrari only because your Skoda is of the same colour. If Trunks had been stronger than Goku, then Gohan would have said so. Furthermore, we latter see Goku demonstrating that he's at Trunks level after saying that he didn't have time to train besides learning the shunkanido and how to transform at will which further confirms that Trunks and Goku had the same power level more or less.

But you can say "that's my car" when presented with a Ferrari exactly like your own. The only difference is that this Ferrari has better horsepower than your Ferrari because your Ferrari is a little worse for wear. If cars could heal over time like biological creatures you would think it is par for the course for your Ferrari to have more horsepower after not seeing it for some time. If Trunks is stronger than Goku then Gohan would have assumed this was Goku's true power without injury. Nothing more. Nothing less. What we see later from Goku is that Goku is superior to Trunks even while suppressed. Because he blocks all of Trunks attacks with just his finger. Barely moving. Trunks even says "I have a little hope now that I've seen your strength." Why would Trunks say that if they are equal? Because we know Trunks can't beat an Android. Yet after seeing Goku's strength, which by your admission is practically equal to Trunks, Trunks has hope Goku can win with a similar battler power? Shouldn't Trunks be saying that Goku needs to train hard to beat these Androids because as he is now he doesn't stand a chance? Where is the hope here?

Bad comparison considering Gohan can sense Trunk's Ki size. Yes, if I'm presented in front of a Ferrari that has the exact same appearance than the one I own I may say "that's my car" without it being the case, but that's because ALL THE ASPECTS OF THE CAR I'M ABLE TO IDENTIFY ARE EQUAL.
In other words, if knowing that the Ferrari in front of me has a much stronger engine I still say "that's my car" then there's only one option: I'm lying.

So to know about Gohan's stance, we only need to answer these two questions:
1. Was Gohan able to sense ki sizes when he said Trunks ki was the same Ki as his father?
2. Was Gohan lying about Trunks?

If the answers are yes to the first and no to the second then there's no way to insinuate than Trunks' power was above Goku's at Namek.

Furthermore, Gohan couldn't possibly think "this is my father once he isn't injured" because Gohan says "It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!" which further demonstrates that you contradict the manga and your previous statements only to not admit not being true. I mean, how can you quote this and transform it into "He's much stronger than father was in Namek, this must be my father once he's been healed"? Easy, because you will do anything before admitting being wrong in something, even if this implies to contradict what yourself wrote in your last message.

[Hitiro]

Goku was injured but he regained his strength because of the rage. I mean, I understand chapter 325 of the manga is one of your worst nightmares but it's there, it exists, its real, and it proves that Goku regained all his strength when he transformed due to his feelings towards krilin's death.

To me what's condescending is to defend a stance without listening at other people's arguments and repeat one time after another things that have been demonstrated false multiple times. Look, if I don't remember it bad you were the one who said that Goku didn't dodge Freezer's kienzan only to support your stance that Goku was as weakened in chapter 325 as he was in chapter 317 which is only a proof of how far you will be able to go in order to never admit that you can be wrong on something.

Nothing indicates Goku regained all of his strength because of the rage. Can you prove to me he did? Is it stated anywhere that he is back to 100%? I do listen to other peoples arguments and I have never said what I propose is fact. But you are telling me that it is fact that Goku regained all of his strength when there is no proof. Nothing has proven my statement false. Just like nothing has proven your statement true. Now you can be of the opinion that Goku did in-fact gain all of his strength back which is up to you. Frankly I find it a bit far-fetched even if his anger did contribute to his SSJ form being released. But the way you talk if very disrespectful. If you can't take other peoples opinions without insulting them or belittling them then I suggest you not come here. Because I or anybody else on these forums don't want this kind of talk. I believe you've been told off before so it isn't like I'm the only person who thinks this way about the way you talk.

I remember just fine and I stand by the opinion that Goku didn't dodge Freeza's Kienzan. Freeza's Ki was tanking, as Goku said, and we know Ki control gets very difficult when it is low. Kuririn demonstrates that when he flies over to Goku and Piccolo. He tells us he is finding it difficult to fly with his low Ki. And again this is my opinion. You can't tell me my opinion is wrong. It isn't like it is a fact.

And like always, your only way to argue about something is to use the straw man fallacy. No one's saying that Gohan wasn't confused by the SSJ Ki, what I'm telling to you is that for Gohan to say "it's father with the same ki" makes no sense if Trunks is much stronger. Why would us as readers assume something isn't stated anywhere?

Why doesn't it make sense? As with my opinion of Goku not being full power on Namek Gohan has no base for comparison to compare a uninjured SSJ Goku to SSJ Trunks. So why can't that be the case? I can understand if I was saying Goku was at 100% on Namek but Trunks is weaker than Goku because Gohan would know how strong his father is at 100% so it would be questionable why 100% SSJ Trunks would be weaker than what Gohan has sensed before. Just because Gohan doesn't state SSJ Trunks > injured SSJ Goku doesn't mean that it isn't possible. The only times a power is questioned is when the increase or decrease doesn't make sense. Piccolo questions why Goku isn't as strong as he should be against the Androids because Piccolo knows how strong Goku should be. Gohan questions his fathers Ki increase from the Kaioshin world because he knows how strong SSJ2 Goku should be. But Gohan can't question why SSJ Trunks is stronger than uninjured SSJ Goku because he doesn't know what an uninjured SSJ Goku would be like. It's par for the course that SSJ Goku(Post-Namek) > SSJ Goku(Namek) because Goku has had time to heal and recover his strength.

Look, it's a bit weird how you now insist on the fact that Goku was injured (it took me months of discussion with you to make you admit that injured fighters lose strength, but at least this means we are making some progress) but what can't be denied is that Goku has more power in chapter 325 than he had in chapter 317.

When did I ever say that injured fighters don't lose strength? I think you have to wrong person here because I've always made that assumption. And the manga has always provided us with clear moments of injured characters being weaker than uninjured characters. The prime and best example is when SSJ2 Gohan took damage protecting Vegeta and he tells us that he lost half of his Ki. And I never said Goku doesn't have more power in chapter 325 than he had in chapter 317. The SSJ multiplier is the reason. Just an example but if Goku only has 10% of his Ki then he is going to be stronger than his 100% base form as a SSJ. Right?

Bad comparison considering Gohan can sense Trunk's Ki size.

Which matters why? If Gohan has never sensed an uninjured Goku's Ki size as a SSJ how can he even make a bad comparison?

Yes, if I'm presented in front of a Ferrari that has the exact same appearance than the one I own I may say "that's my car" without it being the case, but that's because ALL THE ASPECTS OF THE CAR I'M ABLE TO IDENTIFY ARE EQUAL.
In other words, if knowing that the Ferrari in front of me has a much stronger engine I still say "that's my car" then there's only one option: I'm lying.

I never said a stronger engine. The engine is the same it's just that it was a little beat up before so it didn't perform as well. But if cars could heal then you would assume it is your car. Right? Just because the engine has a few extra horsepower you wouldn't question its strength. Because this would just be how strong the engine is when it is in tip-top shape. I don't understand why you can't see that.

So to know about Gohan's stance, we only need to answer these two questions:
1. Was Gohan able to sense ki sizes when he said Trunks ki was the same Ki as his father?
2. Was Gohan lying about Trunks?

If the answers are yes to the first and no to the second then there's no way to insinuate than Trunks' power was above Goku's at Namek.

Why? If Goku wasn't at his peak in the Namek saga then why can't Gohan assume that Trunks' power is Goku's when he is fully healed? Because he doesn't tell us its stronger? Just because he doesn't tell us that doesn't mean it can't be true. If Goku was only at 10% due to injury on Namek then his SSJ form would put him at 15 million. What Gohan senses now is what he believes 100% Goku is like as a SSJ. So why question the strength increase? Because he already knows that what Goku showed on Namek wasn't his peak due to injury.

Furthermore, Gohan couldn't possibly think "this is my father once he isn't injured" because Gohan says "It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!" which further demonstrates that you contradict the manga and your previous statements only to not admit not being true. I mean, how can you quote this and transform it into "He's much stronger than father was in Namek, this must be my father once he's been healed"? Easy, because you will do anything before admitting being wrong in something, even if this implies to contradict what yourself wrote in your last message.

So because Gohan says that you are making the assumption that I must be wrong? Gohan has only ever sensed one SSJ Ki and he knows that there is only one person who can generate a SSJ Ki signature that he knows of. So it must be his dads Ki while he isn't injured. And finally I have not contradicted myself in any of my posts about this subject. And I would appreciate it if you would refrain from attacking me about my opinion. I never said I couldn't be wrong. But this is my opinion of what transpired. There is no need to throw a hissy-fit because my opinion differs from your own.

Also I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Trunks placed Goku's strength so high if they were equal. Trunks confirms that he is nothing to the Androids but when he sees Goku's strength, which you say is equal to his own, he has hope the Androids can be beaten. Please explain why Trunks would think this when he knows that a person of his level is not strong enough to defeat the Androids? If they were even Trunks would have come out and said that Goku must get a lot stronger to beat the Androids. Not gain hope from someone who is equal to his strength.

[freezamite]

Nothing indicates Goku regained all of his strength because of the rage. Can you prove to me he did? Is it stated anywhere that he is back to 100%? I do listen to other peoples arguments and I have never said what I propose is fact. But you are telling me that it is fact that Goku regained all of his strength when there is no proof. Nothing has proven my statement false. Just like nothing has proven your statement true. Now you can be of the opinion that Goku did in-fact gain all of his strength back which is up to you. Frankly I find it a bit far-fetched even if his anger did contribute to his SSJ form being released. But the way you talk if very disrespectful. If you can't take other peoples opinions without insulting them or belittling them then I suggest you not come here. Because I or anybody else on these forums don't want this kind of talk. I believe you've been told off before so it isn't like I'm the only person who thinks this way about the way you talk.

I remember just fine and I stand by the opinion that Goku didn't dodge Freeza's Kienzan. Freeza's Ki was tanking, as Goku said, and we know Ki control gets very difficult when it is low. Kuririn demonstrates that when he flies over to Goku and Piccolo. He tells us he is finding it difficult to fly with his low Ki. And again this is my opinion. You can't tell me my opinion is wrong. It isn't like it is a fact.

Look, when someone consciously lies in a debate, this is the most disrespectful one can be. Now going from that, you're putting excuses in order to justify your stance conscious that those excuses are something totally made up by you and not based on the manga.

For example, you say that "ki control gets very difficult when it is low" and that "Krilin demonstrates that when he flies over to Goku and Piccolo" because "he is telling us "it is difficult to fly with his low Ki". What this means is that if you don't have enough ki to perform an attack that requires a certain amount of ki then you won't be able to do so.
This has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. Freezer had plenty of energy to make the kienzan, he fires it against Goku and Goku moves his head. Hey, it's not as if there wasn't a whole panel of Goku moving his head to a side as he saw the Kienzan approaching. So Goku moved his head which means that he reacted to the kienzan which wouldn't be even possible with a weakened Goku. In fact, even for a healed Goku that was a hell of a feat, which means that he probably was stronger after the rage boost (without SSJ) than he ever was before (of course Kaioh Ken not included here).

The fact that Goku dodges the kienzan and the fact that you won't admit it because when doing so you'll have to admit that your stance contradicts the manga proves me that you aren't here to debate but to impose your view of the manga.

No, seriously, I don't think anyone can look at chapter 325 of DB page 12 and say that Goku didn't react at all to the kienzan, that it was simply Freezer having low accuracy.

Why doesn't it make sense? As with my opinion of Goku not being full power on Namek Gohan has no base for comparison to compare a uninjured SSJ Goku to SSJ Trunks. So why can't that be the case?

I can understand if I was saying Goku was at 100% on Namek but Trunks is weaker than Goku because Gohan would know how strong his father is at 100% so it would be questionable why 100% SSJ Trunks would be weaker than what Gohan has sensed before. Just because Gohan doesn't state SSJ Trunks > injured SSJ Goku doesn't mean that it isn't possible. The only times a power is questioned is when the increase or decrease doesn't make sense. Piccolo questions why Goku isn't as strong as he should be against the Androids because Piccolo knows how strong Goku should be. Gohan questions his fathers Ki increase from the Kaioshin world because he knows how strong SSJ2 Goku should be. But Gohan can't question why SSJ Trunks is stronger than uninjured SSJ Goku because he doesn't know what an uninjured SSJ Goku would be like. It's par for the course that SSJ Goku(Post-Namek) > SSJ Goku(Namek) because Goku has had time to heal and recover his strength.

It can't be because it contradicts what Gohan says in the manga. Gohan says "it's the same ki father had back then" so he is not comparing Goku to Trunks, he is comparing Goku's ki to Trunks' ki, and they're so close that he is mistaking one for the other.
Since size is an aspect of Ki that's instantly measured the sentence "it's the same ki" doesn't make any sense if it's in fact a much bigger ki. And if it's not a much bigger ki, then it doesn't make any sense to say that Gohan's talking about the strength his father would have in case of him not being injured when he says "it's the same ki father had back then". "BACK THEN". See?

If instead of just attacking my stance with everything you've got you just formed a coherent opinion of what the author tried to tell us and use it to debate we could also be disagreeing (of course), but I wouldn't think of you as someone who doesn't admit being wrong no matter how many times you're proven wrong.

When did I ever say that injured fighters don't lose strength? I think you have to wrong person here because I've always made that assumption. And the manga has always provided us with clear moments of injured characters being weaker than uninjured characters.

I stand corrected then. I left the forum after you lied in our last discussion with the kienzan thing so it's possible it was someone else.

And I never said Goku doesn't have more power in chapter 325 than he had in chapter 317. The SSJ multiplier is the reason. Just an example but if Goku only has 10% of his Ki then he is going to be stronger than his 100% base form as a SSJ. Right?

I can't even start to understand why would the SSJ multiplier have any affect when we are speaking of Goku in his base state in chapter 325. It's Goku after distransforming that I'm comparing against Goku before transforming. No SSJ involved in here.

Which matters why? If Gohan has never sensed an uninjured Goku's Ki size as a SSJ how can he even make a bad comparison?

Because Gohan is making the comparison with the ki Goku had BACK THEN. Not uninjured Goku, not anything else. Just the ki Goku had back then.
Now, Gohan compares the ki Goku had on Namek with the ki Trunks has when fighting Freezer at maximum strength (he fights seriously against Mecha Freezer and his father, stated by him when speaking with Goku), and he says "it's the same ki".

It's obvious that this is said considering all the aspects Gohan could measure of Trunks' ki, which are at least "type" and "size". For him to say "it's the same ki" with the meaning of "it's like 20 times bigger but it resembles the type" its pure nonsense.

I never said a stronger engine. The engine is the same it's just that it was a little beat up before so it didn't perform as well. But if cars could heal then you would assume it is your car. Right? Just because the engine has a few extra horsepower you wouldn't question its strength. Because this would just be how strong the engine is when it is in tip-top shape. I don't understand why you can't see that.

Look, Gohan is measuring Trunk's ki and comparing it to the ki Goku had in Namek. If you want to make this comparison then lets do it fine. Let's consider that the speed of a car is like the ki of a fighter. Yes, if I'm in front of a different, apparently equal car and I'm taking by reference my "beaten" car and cars could heal then I could say something like "This is my car! It's as fast as my car!".
The problem is that what Gohan says is the equivalent of saying "This is my car! It's as fast as my car back then (when it was beaten)"! See the difference? Gohan is not making suppositions, he is just making a straight comparison between the ki of Trunks at that moment and the ki of Goku in namek, or the current speed of that car with the speed his car had at that moment.

So if Gohan can measure speeds, and he says this car is moving at the same speed the other car was moving back then, then the cars may be different, but the speed is the same and so is Trunks' ki compared to Goku's.

Why? If Goku wasn't at his peak in the Namek saga then why can't Gohan assume that Trunks' power is Goku's when he is fully healed?

BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT TRUNKS' KI IS THE SAME THAT IT WAS BACK THEN. Yes, the type and all that, but you don't say your red scoda is the same as a red ferrari only because both of them are red. If Trunks had been stronger than Goku then Gohan would've said something like "it's the same (kind of) ki of my father back then, but he is much stronger now!".

Also I'm still waiting for you to tell me why Trunks placed Goku's strength so high if they were equal. Trunks confirms that he is nothing to the Androids but when he sees Goku's strength, which you say is equal to his own, he has hope the Androids can be beaten. Please explain why Trunks would think this when he knows that a person of his level is not strong enough to defeat the Androids? If they were even Trunks would have come out and said that Goku must get a lot stronger to beat the Androids. Not gain hope from someone who is equal to his strength.

Trunks later explains that the Androids had in fact the same strength he had (that's why he could kill them) and Goku still had 3 years to train.

[Galan007]

When Gohan likened Trunks' ki to Goku's ki, he was clearly referencing the power he/they produced--accurately sensing power levels is what the Z fighters *do*, after all. Whether you think he was weakened or not, Goku's PL on Namek was canonically 150m. Thus, Trunks' PL when he fought Cold/Freeza was around 150m as well.

I don't think there is a reason to make this any harder than it needs to be. /shrug

[Hitiro]

Look, when someone consciously lies in a debate, this is the most disrespectful one can be. Now going from that, you're putting excuses in order to justify your stance conscious that those excuses are something totally made up by you and not based on the manga.

Exactly when have I lied? Can you please point it out? Because everything I've said I believe. And everything I provide is subjective to the manga. You suggest Goku just got all his strength back from being angry and it is not stated in the manga. My opinion that he wasn't at full strength when he turned SSJ and after he turned SSJ is just as valid as your opinion he was.

For example, you say that "ki control gets very difficult when it is low" and that "Krilin demonstrates that when he flies over to Goku and Piccolo" because "he is telling us "it is difficult to fly with his low Ki". What this means is that if you don't have enough ki to perform an attack that requires a certain amount of ki then you won't be able to do so.

Kuririn had no problem flying though. He just couldn't fly well. That isn't saying he wasn't able to fly. Just that he couldn't fly properly. Videl who has a significantly lower Ki than Kuririn is able to fly without much Ki. She is only in the tens if not hundreds and Kuririn surely isn't that low. Kuririn is just used to flying with a large amount of Ki and as such he couldn't fly as well as he usually does. I see no problem with Ki control getting worse if you have low Ki.

This has absolutely nothing to do with accuracy. Freezer had plenty of energy to make the kienzan, he fires it against Goku and Goku moves his head. Hey, it's not as if there wasn't a whole panel of Goku moving his head to a side as he saw the Kienzan approaching. So Goku moved his head which means that he reacted to the kienzan which wouldn't be even possible with a weakened Goku. In fact, even for a healed Goku that was a hell of a feat, which means that he probably was stronger after the rage boost (without SSJ) than he ever was before (of course Kaioh Ken not included here).

The fact that Goku dodges the kienzan and the fact that you won't admit it because when doing so you'll have to admit that your stance contradicts the manga proves me that you aren't here to debate but to impose your view of the manga.

The fact that Goku "dodges" the Kienzan thrown by an enemy that has firstly been damaged by the Genki Dama so he has already lost a chunk of energy, secondly has been confirmed to be steadily losing Ki and thirdly be told that his Kienzan technique is worthless and that Freeza should go and recover stamina and polish his skills to beat Goku isn't really much of a feat and doesn't prove anything really. There is nothing wrong with my opinion that Goku turned around and the Kienzan just missed. And the manga doesn't prove you right any more than it proves me wrong. I'm not trying to impose my view on anyone. You are welcome to believe what you want. I'll keep believing Goku wasn't at full strength when he thought Freeza and you can just keep believing he is. To be honest I could say the same for you trying to impose your view of the manga on people. In another thread you are calling everyone wrong by saying the guide is because people choose to follow the guides multipliers. If that isn't imposing your view on people I don't know what is.

No, seriously, I don't think anyone can look at chapter 325 of DB page 12 and say that Goku didn't react at all to the kienzan, that it was simply Freezer having low accuracy.

Goku turned around because he heard something coming, it missing by a hairs-width is perfectly fine for me to believe. I'm sorry you don't think so as well.

It can't be because it contradicts what Gohan says in the manga. Gohan says "it's the same ki father had back then" so he is not comparing Goku to Trunks, he is comparing Goku's ki to Trunks' ki, and they're so close that he is mistaking one for the other.
Since size is an aspect of Ki that's instantly measured the sentence "it's the same ki" doesn't make any sense if it's in fact a much bigger ki. And if it's not a much bigger ki, then it doesn't make any sense to say that Gohan's talking about the strength his father would have in case of him not being injured when he says "it's the same ki father had back then". "BACK THEN". See?

Gohan is talking about the type of Ki here. Size is never considered. "It's the same Ki" just means it's the same type of Ki. Which is a SSJ's Ki. I honestly don't see why you can't see that size has nothing to do with what Gohan is saying here. If size had something to do with this then why doesn't Gohan say "onaji gurai no ki"(same amount of ki)? You can't tell me that I'm wrong because Gohan never talks about size because Gohan never says anything in regarding to size anyway.

If instead of just attacking my stance with everything you've got you just formed a coherent opinion of what the author tried to tell us and use it to debate we could also be disagreeing (of course), but I wouldn't think of you as someone who doesn't admit being wrong no matter how many times you're proven wrong.

I'm not the one who is being aggressive here. You are. You keep saying I'm attacking your stance with everything and all I'm really doing is just offering my opinion and defending it. You are the one who is constantly saying I'm lying or I'm contradicting my opinion left-right and centre when I'm not. You are also being highly offensive in several regards when you talk to me which most people on this forum would probably agree. Also, I think you'll find if you go through me previous posts that I have always kept a clear and concise neutrality when it comes to my opinions. I always say my opinion could be wrong or that I am open to the possibilities of other idea's. And I have changed my view on a few topics and pointed out where I'm wrong in most cases. It seems like it is you who refuses to admit being wrong on things or tries to force your opinion on other people like myself.

When did I ever say that injured fighters don't lose strength? I think you have to wrong person here because I've always made that assumption. And the manga has always provided us with clear moments of injured characters being weaker than uninjured characters.

It may very well be, I left the forum after you lied in our last discussion with the kienzan thing so it's possible it was someone else.

Well I ask you to find this "lie" then. Because I have always been of the frame of mind that damage lowers the users Ki levels. And again just because it is of my opinion that the Kienzan missed its mark doesn't make it a lie. That is my opinion. You are free to refute it and not believe in my opinion. But I take offence you saying I'm lying when I genuinely believe that Goku didn't dodge it.

I can't even start to understand why would the SSJ multiplier have any affect when we are speaking of Goku in his base state in chapter 325. It's Goku after distransforming that I'm comparing against Goku before transforming. No SSJ involved in here.

Why? Because you say he dodged the Kienzan? Even assuming he did and you are right about him regaining his strength. Can you prove to me that he regained all of it? Can you prove that it wasn't the coupled fact that Freeza's Ki had taken a huge hit and now that he was using 100% his Ki was steadily dropping allowing Base Goku > Freeza? I still believe that it missed because Freeza's Ki had tanked so he didn't have as much Ki control as he thought he did. But there are so many conclusions that can be drawn from this scene that does not involve Goku being at full power that they are just as likely as Goku actually being full power.

Which matters why? If Gohan has never sensed an uninjured Goku's Ki size as a SSJ how can he even make a bad comparison?

Because Gohan is making the comparison with the ki Goku had BACK THEN. Not uninjured Goku, not anything else. Just the ki Goku had back then.
Now, Gohan compares the ki Goku had on Namek with the ki Trunks has when fighting Freezer at maximum strength (he fights seriously against Mecha Freezer and his father, stated by him when speaking with Goku), and he says "it's the same ki".

Again, this quote has nothing to do with Ki size. As herms has already told us in the note with the Strength Checker quote. So you are arguing that it does have significance with size when we don't even get told it's to do with size.

It's obvious that this is said considering all the aspects Gohan could measure of Trunks' ki, which are at least "type" and "size". For him to say "it's the same ki" with the meaning of "it's like 20 times bigger but it resembles the type" its pure nonsense.

You are fixating that size must be included in his words. Why can't it just by type? Because you don't want it to be? As I said. There is nothing wrong with thinking that Goku wasn't at full power back on Namek and Gohan is just saying that the type of Ki they are feeling is SSJ Ki. With Gohan knowing that Goku wasn't at his best on Namek there is no need for him to bring up Ki size.

I never said a stronger engine. The engine is the same it's just that it was a little beat up before so it didn't perform as well. But if cars could heal then you would assume it is your car. Right? Just because the engine has a few extra horsepower you wouldn't question its strength. Because this would just be how strong the engine is when it is in tip-top shape. I don't understand why you can't see that.

Look, Gohan is measuring Trunk's ki and comparing it to the ki Goku had in Namek. If you want to make this comparison then lets do it fine. Let's consider that the speed of a car is like the ki of a fighter. Yes, if I'm in front of a different, apparently equal car and I'm taking by reference my "beaten" car and cars could heal then I could say something like "This is my car! It's as fast as my car!".
The problem is that what Gohan says is the equivalent of saying "This is my car! It's as fast as my car back then (when it was beaten)"! See the difference? Gohan is not making suppositions, he is just making a straight comparison between the ki of Trunks at that moment and the ki of Goku in namek, or the current speed of that car with the speed his car had at that moment.

"Back then" could just be him on about the event of the SSJ form. Such as: "I was a SSJ back then." or in this example "This Ki type! It's the same as back then!(When Goku turned SSJ)" You are just forming an opinion, much like myself, on what Gohan has said like I am and I'm not saying you are wrong. But my opinion is as valid as yours because I can also form an opinion of what is said and it is just as viable. Nothing refutes my opinion or yours. But you seem to be adamant that I must be wrong because what Gohan says can, in no way, mean what I am saying. Right?

So if Gohan can measure speeds, and he says this car is moving at the same speed the other car was moving back then, then the cars may be different, but the speed is the same and so is Trunks' ki compared to Goku's.

If you want to take it like this then I can say Gohan is saying that this car "type" is the same as "back then." It is exactly the same as what you are saying. The only difference is type is the only thing in question in my opinion.

Why? If Goku wasn't at his peak in the Namek saga then why can't Gohan assume that Trunks' power is Goku's when he is fully healed?

BECAUSE HE SAYS THAT TRUNKS' KI IS THE SAME THAT IT WAS BACK THEN. Yes, the type and all that, but you don't say your red scoda is the same as a red ferrari only because both of them are red. If Trunks had been stronger than Goku then Gohan would've said something like "it's the same (kind of) ki of my father back then, but he is much stronger now!".

No. Gohan doesn't have to say he is much stronger now because it would be obvious that if he was injured back then his strength would be larger now that he has healed. The only times we get strength checks is when something doesn't add up or we see a new transformation. Two prime examples which I have already provided is when Goku was suffering from the heart virus. Piccolo points out that Goku should be stronger than he currently is and is wondering why he isn't. And the other example is when Goku goes SSJ3. Gohan wonders why Goku has gotten stronger all of a sudden because it doesn't fit with what he believes Goku's level should be. But if you know someone is injured when they show their strength and then they show their strength again later once they have healed you aren't going to say he is stronger now. Are you? That much should be obvious because healed > injured anyway.

Trunks later explains that the Androids had in fact the same strength he had (that's why he could kill them) and Goku still had 3 years to train.

When does he explain that he and the Androids had the same strength? Trunks says that he could fight them fairly well. But Trunks never says they had the same strength he has. The only statements from Trunks about their strength are:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3
Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Chapter: 357 (DBZ 163), P4.3
Trunks: “…But somehow I ended up coming to a past slightly different than the one I know…The timing of Goku’s heart disease was different, there are 3 androids, and their strength is greater too…”

So no. Their strength was above Trunks and Trunks could only fight them fairly well but still could barely escape even with a one-on-one fight. So this really doesn't explain why if Goku is as strong as Trunks that it would give Trunks hope. Because Goku would still not be strong enough to take out an Android from Trunks timeline.

When Gohan likened Trunks' ki to Goku's ki, he was clearly referencing the power he/they produced--accurately sensing power levels is what the Z fighters *do*, after all. Whether you think he was weakened or not, Goku's PL on Namek was canonically 150m. Thus, Trunks' PL when he fought Cold/Freeza was around 150m as well.

I don't think there is a reason to make this any harder than it needs to be. /shrug

The guide gives what their powers would be without injury though. Because both Goku and Freeza receive injury during the battle. And unless somehow Freeza gets his battle power back up to his true 100% with injuries then it doesn't make sense. Freeza says after the Genki Dama that he still has enough strength to beat them. So his battle power had dropped. Yet he and Goku are going fairly evenly during the fight when he is at 100%. So like I said. Either they both healed or they were both injured to the point that it made the fight fairly even until Freeza's Ki started to steadily drop in which case Goku gave up because it wasn't a challenge for him anymore. Unless you think 120 million is Freeza while injured? In that case how strong do you think he is uninjured? Because he was damaged very badly by the Genki Dama. Do you think his battle power only dropped 10% or something with all the damage he had accumulated?

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”

[Galan007]

Multiple guides(inc. the Daizenshuu) depict battle worn illustrations of SSJ Goku and Freeza next to their respective power levels:
http://i.imgur.com/SbI8nhx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Spznew9.jpg

...Given the above, I've always thought the heavy implication was that their in-saga power levels were listed--I see no reason why it would list theoretical PLs we never saw..? Unless I missed something..?

[Hitiro]

Multiple guides(inc. the Daizenshuu) depict battle worn illustrations of SSJ Goku and Freeza next to their respective power levels:
http://i.imgur.com/SbI8nhx.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Spznew9.jpg

So unless I've missed something, I believe it was referring to what their power levels actually were during the saga itself...

The guides also say that SSJ is a 50x multiplier. That wouldn't be possible if Goku got damaged and still output a battler power of 150 mill. Right? Unless he healed due to the SSJ transformation (or rage). But then if Freeza is battle damaged too he wouldn't stand a chance unless he healed. Unless his power didn't drop that much due to the damage even though he took a lot of damage. So how much did his power drop? Because if he is that battle damaged and still has 120 million at 100% then 100% Freeza without battle damage should exceed 150 million. Right? Then we have Mecha Freeza who, by Freeza's own admission, has powered up. So even if 100% Freeza isn't above 150 million then Mecha Freeza should be, right?

So there are a few possibilities:
The battle powers don't depict their battle damaged battle powers.
SSJ Goku and Freeza healed to keep the fight even.
Or!
The SSJ multiplier the guides give us are wrong.

These are the only real possibilities that could be drawn without breaking what happens in the story.

[Galan007]

So even though the Daizenshuu depicted the battle worn versions of SSJ Goku and Freeza, you think the PLs listed right next to said illustrations were really just theoretical peak power levels that we never actually saw? I can't agree there.

Freeza is a mutant with extreme durability. He may have been "hurt" by the 20x Kamehameha and Genki Dama, but I don't think they were enough to significantly drop his PL, which is probably why such was never stated. In fact, the only time it was stated that Freeza's PL had decreased significantly was after SSJ Goku had beat the tar out of him--and even then, his drop in power was credited more to the physical rigors of sustaining 100% power, then the fight/beating itself.

As for Goku: he went from being almost completely drained of power(per Piccolo) and barely able to stand, to stomping 100% Freeza with a fair amount of ease as a SSJ. I think Akira simply opted to overlook a few tidbits, and pretend as though his base PL hadn't decreased much, in favor of making the 'Legendary' Super Saiyan shine. Call it a rage boost...Call it a plot-device...Call it whatever you like, but had Goku's base PL been kept as it was(ie. almost nothing), a 50x increase most definitely would NOT have been enough for him to stomp Freeza.

[Hitiro]

So even though the Daizenshuu depicted the battle worn versions of SSJ Goku and Freeza, you think the PLs listed right next to said illustrations were really just theoretical peak power levels that we never actually saw? I can't agree there.

Well you say it depicted battle worn versions of SSJ Goku and Freeza. But in those chapters there are no non-battle worn versions of SSJ Goku and 100% Freeza. Each image in those battle power pages are from scenes in the manga and that's really all they are to me. Like if they put up a picture of SSJ Goku from the Boo arc then it would confuse people. Are they saying SSJ Goku from Boo arc is 150 million? Or is it just a picture to show Goku not battle worn? To me it is less confusing to just use an image of the character from arc in question if you want to point out what Goku you're talking about. But it's up to you if you don't agree with me.

Freeza is a mutant with extreme durability. He may have been "hurt" by the 20x Kamehameha and Genki Dama, but I don't think they were enough to significantly drop his PL, which is probably why such was never stated. In fact, the only time it was stated that Freeza's PL had decreased significantly was after SSJ Goku had beat the tar out of him--and even then, his drop in power was credited more to the physical rigors of sustaining 100% power, then the fight/beating itself.

Well Freeza himself said that the damage had effected his strength after he was hit by the Genki Dama. But even with the damage he said he could still easily take out Goku and his gang. So take what you will from what he said. But as far as I'm aware there isn't a single case in the manga where damage hasn't decreased the users battle power. Even if they are durable.

As for Goku: he went from being almost completely drained of power(per Piccolo) and barely able to stand, to stomping 100% Freeza with a fair amount of ease as a SSJ. I think Akira simply opted to overlook a few tidbits, and pretend as though his base PL hadn't decreased much, in favor of making the 'Legendary' Super Saiyan shine. Call it a rage boost...Call it a plot-device...Call it whatever you like, but had Goku's base PL been kept as it was(ie. almost nothing), a 50x increase most definitely would NOT have been enough for him to stomp Freeza.

Well you say he was barely able to stand but he was standing just fine before and after he launched the Genki Dama. He even leapt out of the water and threw a punch before he threw the Genki Dama. So I think this is pretty much opinion based. But you can go back and check the chapters if you want. I don't see Goku having any trouble standing. And I don't see how it isn't possible that battle worn Goku even with a fraction of his power couldn't beat down a battle worn Freeza. But like I said it's your opinion.

I still believe they weren't at their full strengths when they thought.

[Galan007]

You're reaching a bit, I think. If those PLs were intended to be different than what the characters possessed in the manga, the Daizenshuu would have informed the readers of such. As it stands, those were the PLs displayed in the saga--we only saw Freeza utilize 100% power *once*, for example, thus the listed 120m *must* have been what he wielded in the manga. If there is additional info that I am not aware of pertaining to this subject, I welcome it.

Freeza said that he "took damage" from the Genki Dama, which was evident by his physical appearance afterward. However, it was never stated --by anyone-- that his PL had significantly decreased, which is the point.

Goku barely being able to stand was a figure of speech. Piccolo explicitly noted that Goku was almost completely drained of power before he launched the Genki Dama. Nothing of the sort was stated about Freeza, even though the Z Fighters could undeniably sense his power/ki. Imo, the only logical conclusion based on the evidence at hand is that Goku's PL had waned to insignificancy, while Freeza's had stayed around the same. So again: Call it a rage boost...Call it a plot-device...Call it whatever you like, but had Goku's base PL been kept as it was(ie. almost nothing), a 50x SSJ increase most definitely would NOT have been enough for him to stomp Freeza. Akira simply did what he *had* to do(ie. ignore/tweak in-story context) in order for the Legendary Super Saiyan to shine. Just my opinion.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I disagree, though.