The Shadow Dragon/Dragon Ball Overuse Punisment:A Dumb Idea?

[Cure Dragon 255]

This post by Saiga has pretty much killed the concept for me. I know its REALLY long but its PRETTY HARD to disagree.

I've heard this argument many many times before, and I feel it's the exact opposite of that. None of it feels like a natural extension of Dragon Ball, and it's just appealing to some fan wish/belief that the Dragon Balls needed to have more consequences, because they were over used.

I have to disagree with this notion. With the advent of the Namekian Dragon Balls, the removal of the one-death limit, and mass resurrection a lot of people feel it takes all the tension out of the series. However the second revival is only really used for Chaozu, until the Boo arc's mass revival of everyone.

The main effect of the limitless and mass revivals to avoid the nasty implications of what would happen to the innocent people killed in these attacks. These are people who died due to the villains' actions, and it'd be a bit too dark for Dragon Ball to keep them dead because of wish limitations. It would also make the heroes much more irresponsible "Gohan, don't hold back for the Earth's sake" / "We need to train for fusion while Boo is wiping out cities". Hell, Piccolo's instruction to Evil Boo would way too fucking dark if those people couldn't be brought back. The Dragon Ball's improved revival capabilities for necessary for Dragon Ball to be able to keep its tone.

But even without that, I do believe there is some merit to the idea of the Dragon Balls backfiring or giving birth to new enemies. But absolutely not in the way GT chose to do it (and I'm not talking about execution, this is still in the idea phase). GT's idea was "The misuse of the Dragon Balls lead to this enemy, and the group will have to learn from their errors for the ending of the series".

That's completely fucking stupid.

Goku and the gang didn't even mis-use the Dragon Balls. They weren't irresponsible with them. In fact, to act in any other way than what they did would be irresponsible. The main purpose of the Dragon Balls was to either to enable them to defeat current threats, or to restore the Earth and its population after a villain laid waste to it. If they were to decide not to revive the innocent victims of Cell's rampage because "oh it's not natural" they would be assholes. Just straight up irresponsible assholes.

This should not constitute misuse of the Dragon Balls. There's no lesson to be learned from that, except to try and minimize damage in the first place. But that's a completely separate lesson that shouldn't be tied to the Dragon Balls, it should be tied to everyone not learning to go along with whatever Earth-endangering whim Goku has. Which is something that never happens.

Hell, if there's any lesson to take from the Shadow Dragons arc, it's that selfish wishes are the way to go - they outright say that positive wishes create negative energy in the balls. Ergo, negative wishes would actually be good for the Universe. That's a pretty fucked up moral right there, and that's what happens when you try and take "yin and yang" and equate it to "good and evil".

From a meta perspective, this decision doesn't make sense. It's trying to add a sense of consequence to using the balls but really it ends up going too far and actively punishing people for using the balls the way they should have. Without knowing some kind of shit like this was going to happen, there's no reason to avoid reviving all the innocent people that keep perishing because of the villains.

Speaking of knowing some kind of shit like this was going to happen, that brings us to the massive in-universe problems with this idea. You could say this is more about execution, but I still feel it needs to be said (and some parts tie into the idea).

Popo, Dende, Kibitoshin and Elder Kaioshin all knew what the Shadow Dragons were. They didn't say a fucking thing. You might bring up Elder Kaioshin's warning from the Boo arc, and GT certainly does, but the problem is that Elder Kaioshin's warning is far too vague to tie into this. What sense does it make for him to understand the true consequences of the balls, and then give a really pathetic warning about natural order? Goku hit the nail on the head when he said Kaioshin just said that because he's old. I feel that's a far better interpretation of the scene than "we better follow this up, and make a huge threat Kaioshin didn't adequately warn anyone about". It's a horrible retcon that shows the whole idea is flawed.

That's just covering Elder Kaioshin. Kibitoshin outright says people were aware of the exact dangers and they simply hadn't decided to tell the people of Earth this. Which is... a shockingly poor excuse. Popo and Dende are actually meant to watch over Earth, and they simply choose not to do anything. Popo even knows of a planet that was destroyed by Shadow Dragons, and... chooses not to do anything.

The fact that Dende and God knew about this means there's a good chance it's knowledge possessed by the Namekian race. Not only do they say nothing, they're pretty liberal with the usage of their balls, and all too happy for the humans to use them as well. There's a possibility God and Dende both just learned from Popo, which is a bit strange for him to possess the knowledge originally, but it absolves the Namekians of their guilt. Just means God's and Dende are assholes for not telling them, especially when God was making them use their balls for his whims. Hell, Bulma even points this out to Dende and he makes no defence, just cringes. But given the danger the Shadow Dragons represent to all of creation, it's extremely difficult to sell that idea. Any person they knew should have been spreading that information as much as possible because the Shadow Dragons spawning is simply not an acceptable result.

And that's another fundamental problem with this idea: to introduce and explain it, someone has got to have the knowledge. However that person is just going to look ridiculously negligent. The whole arc is only possible with the heroes being completely unaware of the problem.

Then there's all the retcons introduced, which make even less sense. We're told that the negative energy needs 100 years to dispel, and that the Dragon Balls scattered after each wish to give them time to release the energy. Which contradicts God's earlier explanation - he chose to make them scatter because he wanted a great journey to bring them together, and in so bring people together. Which means God lied about the explanation, and deliberately covered up the danger.

Furthermore, if he was going to put a fail safe on the balls, what's stopping him from actually making the Dragon Balls only grant wishes once every 100 years? We know the creator of the balls can do some quite extension modifications to the balls and the dragon's wishing power, what exactly stops them from making the Dragon Balls inactive for longer, not summon the Dragon before time is up, or giving the dragon the ability to deny wishes if it's too soon etc.? You could come up with reasons for each of these possible solutions, but GT presents none. And they'd probably require different solutions, which means you're tacking on a lot of errata to make the idea possible.

As an aside, the idea that the Dragon Balls scattered to prevent gathering means Bulma got blamed because she invented the Dragon Rader, making it easier to do so. That is a terrible way to assign blame. "You're the most responsible for the Shadow Dragons because you enabled the gathering of the balls" No, that's ridiculous. That's not really to do with the problems in the idea but just some general GT stupidity I noticed while rewatching the episode to make sure I got this stuff right.

In the end, how do they fix the mess with the Shadow Dragons? They have Shenron do it. Which means their approach to this problem has been absolutely no different to any other threat (threat shows up -> go fight threat -> wish the damage away). Instead they resolve that they'll learn to fix their approach later. They actually procrastinated on the lesson the arc was trying to go for! Now, I think this lesson is really dumb, but that's possibly the worst way to wrap it up.

SO, the idea of adding consequences to the Dragon Balls as a way of teaching everyone a lesson: bad idea. Horrible idea. I'd say it was one of the worst parts of GT, and there are a lot of strong contenders. It feels like something that goes against the spirit of DB, and trying to cover this up by tying it to Kaioshin's vague comment makes it so much worse.

The only Shadow Dragon idea I see working is this: the idea of "The Dragon Balls lead to villains who, being villains, are wrong. They're wrong to think the balls were misused, they're wrong to think they should punish the heroes". GT just gives up the potential for moral discussion after the premise is set up and then it's just punchy punch punchy. They don't even try to argue against the Shadow Dragons, Goku's trying to save the day because he thinks it's his fault (although this is just a clever ploy on his part, by saying he's completely responsible he gets to leave everyone behind where they can't take his screen time). And even in this idea, it still wouldn't be very effective if the Dragon Balls actually create the villains because then their existence and the destruction they cause does happen as a result of using the Dragon Balls correctly.

edit: Wow I'm really glad this didn't break any post limits.

[LordCrumb]

That's a lot of thought put into a fictional series!

Just because Dende, Popo and others didn't mention the consequences of over using the dragon balls, is the same argument about Battle of Gods. Vegeta knew about Beerus but didn't say anything either.. does that make the whole 'God of Destruction' thing a dumb idea too?

Personally I think having some kind of consequence for over using the Dragon Balls a fantastic idea. They might not have used them irresponsibly, but they sure has hell over used them. They were even going to give them away as a prize in Battle of Gods!

[Cure Dragon 255]

While I dont like the fact that you seem to say Beerus was a good idea is if it was objective fact, the same also applies to me. I cant say its an OBJECTIVELY dumb idea, that is.

[fadeddreams5]

Dude... it's dragon ball. Same show that has some lone, isolated human creating bio and cyborg creatures that are much stronger than SSJs and Frieza when the most elite group of extraterrestrial scientists could only make Frieza like 1% stronger with their advanced technology. And then there's the time travel stuff.

People just like the thought of the dragon balls being associated with the final threat the gang has to face, whether the idea is dumb or not.

[kei17]

Kame-sen'nin's speech explains why the idea sucks. It just ruins the entire story Toriyama created.

[fadeddreams5]

Kame-sen'nin's speech explains why the idea sucks. It just ruins the entire story Toriyama created.

lol. Master Roshi must be like, "Nevermind. Fuck you, Kami" in GT. lol.

[Zephyr]

Goku and the gang didn't even mis-use the Dragon Balls.

Not strictly, no, but one could argue that overuse is a form of misuse. Anything in excess becomes a vice.

You might bring up Elder Kaioshin's warning from the Boo arc, and GT certainly does, but the problem is that Elder Kaioshin's warning is far too vague to tie into this

I feel the vagueness is what makes it work, at least on the Buu arc's end. If Elder Kaioshin simply knew that in some way the natural order will be screwed up, but not exactly how, then he can't exactly be held accountable.

There's no lesson to be learned from that, except to try and minimize damage in the first place. But that's a completely separate lesson that shouldn't be tied to the Dragon Balls, it should be tied to everyone not learning to go along with whatever Earth-endangering whim Goku has. Which is something that never happens.

The Dragon Balls are still enablers to that though. They want to fight strong guys, which leads to lots of death and suffering, which leads to needing the Dragon Balls. This is the entire reason they needed to be used at all in the Cell arc and the Buu arc.

that brings us to the massive in-universe problems with this idea

I agree, those are all quite problematic. That's still an issue with execution though (at least in regards to "the Dragon Balls being overused has a very bad consequence"). Simply have nobody know exactly what is going on, and have the Dragons themselves explain it. Nobody looks overly negligible.

I've always felt that GT's beginning would work as the beginning to the Evil Dragons arc. Don't have any Black Star Dragon Balls. Have Dende simply seal the balls away at the Palace, knowing that they're near their breaking point, and then Pilaf manages to get up there and breaks the camel's back.

[Cetra]

Kame-sen'nin's speech explains why the idea sucks. It just ruins the entire story Toriyama created.

Actually it works with Roshi's speech. Whatever bad has happened, it was still worth happening because of the good things that have been done. Even the Shadow Dragons will not change that.

[Kakacarrottop]

That's a lot of thought put into a fictional series!

This. Honestly the series final saga tying into the Dragon Balls makes sense and is a good concept that teaches the moral that too much of anything can be bad. It's certainly a more fitting end than the Buu saga, Cell saga or the new "canon" movies that are coming out right now.

[ABED]

I'm not going to reiterate the points I made in another thread, but even if I agreed with Saiga this isn't remotely one of the worst things about GT.

If they were to decide not to revive the innocent victims of Cell's rampage because "oh it's not natural" they would be assholes. Just straight up irresponsible assholes.

Except if you create a threat that could destroy all life by using the DB's even for good, wouldn't that be irresponsible? Sometimes the proper thing would be to let someone go.

The Dragon Balls are still enablers to that though. They want to fight strong guys, which leads to lots of death and suffering, which leads to needing the Dragon Balls. This is the entire reason they needed to be used at all in the Cell arc and the Buu arc.

I think if this lesson had been learned by the main characters, it would've been a nice bit of character development.

[Cure Dragon 255]

God you guys, some of your posts make me cringe! Despite the title I did hope some of you would provide actual arguments as to why the concept could be good! What do I get?

-OMG UR SO OVERTHINKING THIS STUFF. YOU SHOULD ACCEPT THIS DUMB CONCEPT AT FACE VALUE AND NOT COMPLAIN.
-But I WANT the Dragon Balls To stop being so overpowered and overused, even if it doesnt make a lick of sense otherwise!
-NUH UH STFU!

Alright, I will throw you a bone, the CONCEPT isnt inherently as flawed as I make it out to be. But GT does an ESPECTACULARLY AWFUL job at the concept and I dont agree with the people that say its one of the few things GT did right.

[ABED]

God you guys, some of your posts make me cringe! Despite the title I did hope some of you would provide actual arguments as to why the concept could be good! What do I get? <br abp="690"><br abp="691">-OMG UR SO OVERTHINKING THIS STUFF. YOU SHOULD ACCEPT THIS DUMB CONCEPT AT FACE VALUE AND NOT COMPLAIN.<br abp="692">-But I WANT the Dragon Balls To stop being so overpowered and overused, even if it doesnt make a lick of sense otherwise!<br abp="693">-NUH UH STFU!<br abp="694"><br abp="695">Alright, I will throw you a bone, the CONCEPT isnt inherently as flawed as I make it out to be. But GT does an ESPECTACULARLY AWFUL job at the concept and I dont agree with the people that say its one of the few things GT did right.

That's a VERY small bone, you haven't said how it was so terribly executed.

What makes me cringe is this "I WANT the Dragon Balls To stop being so overpowered and overused, even if it doesnt make a lick of sense otherwise!". It has nothing to do with personal preference, they are overused in the worst ways. Everything is put back to square one with a few easy wishes. Every limitation that was ever on the DB's was eventually lifted. And what exactly doesn't make sense about feeling that they are overused?

Our insistence that it was one of the best things about GT is no worse than people who bash GT and conveniently overlook the terrible stuff in Z or just overblow the problem in GT because it's a popular target.

[WittyUsername]

Wow, that was a really long post, and I think it was being a bit too harsh. Dragon Ball as a whole is full of things that don't really make much sense. I actually think the concept of the dragon balls creating a new set of villains was a nice way to end the series, and bring things into full circle.

The execution may have left much to be desired, but it wasn't an inherently bad concept to me.

[Cure Dragon 255]

It DOES. The fans seem obsessed with this idea that the Dragon Balls should have had more limitations that they eat up the EXTREMELY shitty way GT does it like candy!

And I'm NOT a hater. Contrary to everyone here, I LOVED GT. I did like the concept. But then I saw Saiga's post and realized that yeah, its shitty. You however seem to be obsessed with the concept that at POINT BLANK you seem to refuse to accept this.

If you want to talk about GOOD stuff GT does,you can mention other stuff.

[LordCrumb]

God you guys, some of your posts make me cringe! Despite the title I did hope some of you would provide actual arguments as to why the concept could be good! What do I get?

-OMG UR SO OVERTHINKING THIS STUFF. YOU SHOULD ACCEPT THIS DUMB CONCEPT AT FACE VALUE AND NOT COMPLAIN.
-But I WANT the Dragon Balls To stop being so overpowered and overused, even if it doesnt make a lick of sense otherwise!
-NUH UH STFU!

Alright, I will throw you a bone, the CONCEPT isnt inherently as flawed as I make it out to be. But GT does an ESPECTACULARLY AWFUL job at the concept and I dont agree with the people that say its one of the few things GT did right.

Um, to be fair.. you didn't actually add anything to the whole thread anyway.. it wasn't even your post. You just copied and pasted someone elses and said "I agree".

[Cure Dragon 255]

You are confusing "Contribution to the thread" with "Having an argument that makes sense".

I presented an argument that makes sense even if it isnt my own. They ARE FREE to quote someone else if said argument makes more sense than the "NUH UH STFU" I've been getting so far.

[Usingnero]

If there's anything i'd be able to add to this, it's the whole Elder Kaioshin's vague warning in the Boo ark.
How exactly do you think Goku would react if he had said "You must not use the Dragon Balls! To overuse them will bring about the terrible and super powerful Shadow Dragons, Dragons of such power, they even put Boo to shame!" Goku would get super excited, and sometime after defeating Boo, would use the Dragon Balls as much as possible to ensure these new, strong Shadow Dragons would pop up, simply so he has a new challenge, irregardless of the consequences.
Personally, Elder Kaioshin had the better idea NOT going into detail.

[Kamiccolo9]

The part that rubs me the wrong way is Goku and co. deciding who lives and who dies. "Bring back everyone killed, aside from the bad ones." Congrats Goku/Bulma/Yamcha/Vegeta/Etc. Not only have you decided to play God, but you are putting yourself in a position where you are picking and choosing who deserves to live. The old Kaioshin seemed to be of the same opinion. It's against the natural order. People die. It's tragic and unfortunate, but it's a part of life. And circumventing that en masse every time something goes wrong, while their reasonings behind it are laudable, should not be without cost, otherwise it takes away from the very concept of death.

Overall, Saiga, I see your point, but I would have to disagree.

[Cure Dragon 255]

10 POINTS FOR TEAM "Pro Shadow Dragon"


Was that so hard?

[VegettoEX]

10 POINTS FOR TEAM "Pro Shadow Dragon"


Was that so hard?

This is a nothing post. Unless you're willing to contribute worthwhile posts, particularly to a thread you even created yourself, please keep this kind of inane nonsense to yourself.