Vegeta what if ?

[TheLegend23]

Could vegeta possibly have been the strongest character if he wasn't so blinded by his pride and ignorance. Goku was the strongest obviously, but he was also the strongest in other ways. He wasn't very selfish, he wasn't ignorant, he was always up for a challenge instead of being Ignorant thinking nobody could beat him. Vegeta professed through the series thinking he was the best, swearing he was better and stronger than goku. He turned super saiyan out of anger, and hate. In battle of gods he surpassed goku. When did he do that? When Bulma got slapped! So it has me thinking, could that be one of the reasons in the past he could never pass goku? His arrogance and pride always held him back, at the end of the day could he really be the stronger out of the two?

[Tatakae!!Ramenman]

Just going by the series and not any movies, I don't think so.

[Rocketman]

These questions always kinda fumble in that Vegeta is stronger than Goku for very large chunks of the series (just not the parts where the villains get beaten).

[fadeddreams5]

If we go by Toriyama's recent work, possibly, but based on the original manga, no. Him surpassing Goku in BoG was just bullshit. He was angrier when Cell killed Trunks, and he didn't get the least bit stronger. Furthermore, he himself admits in the Buu saga that even when he found himself caring for a family, he couldn't surpass his limits and beat Goku. Unless this was made up in anime....

[ZazamPow]

Yes, I do think that Vegeta's selfish desire for power limited him in comparison to Goku's selfless desire for power.

People are always saying that Vegeta's character development is finished and that there's nothing left for him in these new movies - I disagree. He spent the majority of the series desperately and single-mindedly trying to surpass Goku, but was never able to reach him (yes he was stronger at certain points but mostly there was context involved, like he had extra training while Goku was sick/injured, and then it never took Goku long to reclaim his position as top dog anyway). Now that he's let go of his pride and isn't so obsessive about surpassing Goku, it would be ironic if only now is he capable of it. Battle of Gods hinted at this when he directly surpassed SSJ3 while still just SSJ2 through his devotion to Bulma, whereas Vegeta during the Cell Games wasn't nearly as selfless, so even when Trunks was killed, his power boost was still inconsequential. However since he now cares so much more, he can reap better results. Most of Goku's big power boosts came from a desire to protect or avenge other people, and that was the one thing Vegeta was incapable of replicating until now: compassion. I believe that is the direction these new movies are taking, if Vegeta really is training side by side with Goku under Whis in RoF, then at the very least they'll have to be on par with one another.

[ZazamPow]

If we go by Toriyama's recent work, possibly, but based on the original manga, no. Him surpassing Goku in BoG was just bullshit. He was angrier when Cell killed Trunks, and he didn't get the least bit stronger. Furthermore, he himself admits in the Buu saga that even when he found himself caring for a family, he couldn't surpass his limits and beat Goku. Unless this was made up in anime....

Most of Goku's big power boosts came from a desire to protect or avenge other people. Vegeta was never able to feel that same level of compassion, and thus he never ascended in response to those close to him being in danger. In the Cell Games, Vegeta was still very much a selfish prick who only cared about strength, Trunks was the first person besides himself he ever developed feelings for, but since that was still early on in his character arc, those feelings paled in comparison to how he felt towards Bulma in BoG. Hence a big Goku/Gohan-esque boost then, no big Goku/Gohan esque boost prior.

[TheLegend23]

Yes, I do think that Vegeta's selfish desire for power limited him in comparison to Goku's selfless desire for power.

People are always saying that Vegeta's character development is finished and that there's nothing left for him in these new movies - I disagree. He spent the majority of the series desperately and single-mindedly trying to surpass Goku, but was never able to reach him (yes he was stronger at certain points but mostly there was context involved, like he had extra training while Goku was sick/injured, and then it never took Goku long to reclaim his position as top dog anyway). Now that he's let go of his pride and isn't so obsessive about surpassing Goku, it would be ironic if only now is he capable of it. Battle of Gods hinted at this when he directly surpassed SSJ3 while still just SSJ2 through his devotion to Bulma, whereas Vegeta during the Cell Games wasn't nearly as selfless, so even when Trunks was killed, his power boost was still inconsequential. However since he now cares so much more, he can reap better results. Most of Goku's big power boosts came from a desire to protect or avenge other people, and that was the one thing Vegeta was incapable of replicating until now: compassion. I believe that is the direction these new movies are taking, if Vegeta really is training side by side with Goku under Whis in RoF, then at the very least they'll have to be on par with one another.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If we go by Toriyama's recent work, possibly, but based on the original manga, no. Him surpassing Goku in BoG was just bullshit. He was angrier when Cell killed Trunks, and he didn't get the least bit stronger. Furthermore, he himself admits in the Buu saga that even when he found himself caring for a family, he couldn't surpass his limits and beat Goku. Unless this was made up in anime....

You miss the point. Vegeta didn't get stronger against Beerus just because he got angry, he got stronger because he wanted to protect Bulma. Against Cell, he wanted to avenge Trunks, not protect him (since he was already dead, there wasn't anything to protect).

You can call it bullshit if you want, but this bullshit actually comes from the manga. Not in action, but as a hypothesis from Vegeta.

[rereboy]

Vegeta never stated what you are suggesting. What he says is this: "I think I see at last why I could never beat you. I thought it was because you had people to protect. I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet... I still fight to win... to enjoy it to kill enemies... to puff up my pride. Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself. To push your limits."

So, Goku never got stronger because he wanted to protect people. He got stronger because he trained and achieved transformations which, in turn, is because he loves to fight and surpass his limits. Protecting people isn't even his main motivation... Like stated, his main motivation to work and to get stronger is because he loves to fight and surpass his limits. He was always more selfish than selfless, but he is selfish in a straightforward and innocent kind of way.

And this is acknowledged by Vegeta in the manga. He specifically says that its not because he wants to protect people.

In fact, no character ever got stronger out of nowhere in DB because he wanted to protect people. Gohan gets rage boosts but that is explained as a personal quirk of him as a saiyan-human hybrid that lets him tap into his reserves/potential when he gets emotional.

[Marco Polo]

I don't get why people give so much importance to the moment Vegeta surpassed Goku in BoG, when Goku immediately surpasses him tenfold a couple minutes later in the same film.

Goku is definitely the superior fighter.

[rereboy]

I don't get why people give so much importance to the moment Vegeta surpassed Goku in BoG, when Goku immediately surpasses him tenfold a couple minutes later in the same film.

Goku is definitely the superior fighter.

Goku surpasses him with a technique/transformation that required some conditions, pretty much like Oozaru or SSJ, like its customary in Dragon Ball.

Vegeta surpasses Goku (with just his SSJ2) because he gets mad and wants to protect Bulma, despite the fact that we have him saying in the manga that wanting to protect people is not what makes the difference between him and Goku, and despite the fact that no character, including Vegeta, has ever got so much stronger out of nowhere just because he got mad (except Gohan who has a detailed explanation and circumstances for his rage boosts and has always had them).

[Marco Polo]

Goku kept the SSG powerup in the end. He made that power his, and seemingly forever now.

[ZazamPow]

I can see where Toriyama was going with that quote, the idea of Goku simply being better with just no way around it, and Vegeta accepting that was the conclusion of his character arc. However I still don't really like it, it goes against several instances in the story where devotion and the desire to protect is exactly what allowed Goku to win, and friendship is also an important theme in Dragon Ball just like surpassing your limits, so directly stating that friendship isn't important seems kind of... sad? In the same way Yamcha's life is extremely sad but it's never actually brought up.

[rereboy]

it goes against several instances in the story where devotion and the desire to protect is exactly what allowed Goku to win

Examples?

[KameRule]

Well, Vegeta had been training the whole time; maybe he just got stronger in the old fashioned way? I know that Goku was training with North Kaio, but that seemed way more relaxed than Vegeta's harsh regime.

[rereboy]

Well, Vegeta had been training the whole time; maybe he just got stronger in the old fashioned way? I know that Goku was training with North Kaio, but that seemed way more relaxed than Vegeta's harsh regime.

Enough to surpass Goku's SSJ3 with just his SSJ2? Even though Goku also has been training?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta never stated what you are suggesting. What he says is this: "I think I see at last why I could never beat you. I thought it was because you had people to protect. I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet... I still fight to win... to enjoy it to kill enemies... to puff up my pride. Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself. To push your limits."

What's your source? I'm not sure what the manga says, but in the anime, Vegeta says this:

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits.

I can't read Japanese, but the anime rarely changes manga-lines, doesn't it?

I don't get why people give so much importance to the moment Vegeta surpassed Goku in BoG, when Goku immediately surpasses him tenfold a couple minutes later in the same film.

Goku is definitely the superior fighter.

People don't complain because they are Goku fanboys & Vegeta haters. They complain because they don't believe that the way Vegeta surpasses Goku makes sense.

[rereboy]

Vegeta never stated what you are suggesting. What he says is this: "I think I see at last why I could never beat you. I thought it was because you had people to protect. I thought that desire created some unfathomable power in you. But I have the same desire now. I have others to protect. And yet... I still fight to win... to enjoy it to kill enemies... to puff up my pride. Not you. You've never fought to win. You fight to better yourself. To push your limits."

What's your source? I'm not sure what the manga says, but in the anime, Vegeta says this:

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits.

I can't read Japanese, but the anime rarely changes manga-lines, doesn't it?

Its a quote from the Viz manga but that quote from the anime doesn't change anything. Vegeta is denying that having something to protect is the reason why there's a difference between them and then he states what that reason is on both sources. Which is why Vegeta getting a random huge power boost because he wants to protect Bulma doesn't make sense, among other reasons.

[FindKenshi]

It's not because he wanted to protect Bulma, it's because of his pride. He even says "That's my Bulma!" As in--Bulma is like a possession of his. The wife of the Prince won't be slapped around, she should be treated with the respect one would have for Vegeta as well. That is why he got angry, and it's completely within character He also got a similar anger burst when Goku was offering Old Kaioshin pics of Bulma.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Its a quote from the Viz manga but that quote from the anime doesn't change anything.

You should really stop using Viz as your source. It's a bad source.

If you pay attention, it changes everything.

At first, I thought it was because you had something to protect, that having a strong mind towards defending something gave rise to some mysterious power... That certainly may be true, but if that were it, then it would have been the same for me, now. It was to have my own way, it was for my own enjoyment, it was to kill my enemies, and it was for my own pride that I had fought... But, Kakarotto, you were different. You don't fight in order to win, you fight in order to be certain you do not lose, and in order to keep reaching your limits.

Vegeta isn't denying the possibility of that mysterious power. He accepts it as a possibility, but he doesn't understand why he doesn't have that power now, if that's true.

It's not because he wanted to protect Bulma, it's because of his pride.

Nope:

I thought people might even get angry at me, but in the video, it was even sillier than I’d imagined. (laughs) But in the story Toriyama-sensei made, Vegeta was supposed to waver, and there’s even a moment where Vegeta briefly surpasses Goku because he’s got something to protect in Bulma, so that silly scene was also necessary as a lead-in to make it stand out.