How strong is the "Saiyan Beyond God" Base Form?

[SSJsambosoldier]

How strong is Base God Goku and God Vegeta at? It's mentioned that at the end of Z when Goku is fighting Uub at base form he is as strong as he was SSJ3, but that was before the conception of Beerus/Whis, God Ki, and SSG. Considering first form Frieza managed to KO a rusty Ultimate Gohan with one punch but at his final form was no match for Base God Goku... it seems that The power of end of Z base Goku far exceeds Ssj 3.

What estimate would you put Base Gods Goku and Vegeta? I say they far exceed SSJ 3

[saunasolmu]

Goku should be a bit stronger than he was in BoG so maybe around 65-70% of Beerus power?

[Tectorman]

It's mentioned that at the end of Z when Goku is fighting Uub at base form he is as strong as he was SSJ3,

??

Is this an extrapolation or does someone actually say this?

[Hitiro]

It's mentioned that at the end of Z when Goku is fighting Uub at base form he is as strong as he was SSJ3,

??

Is this an extrapolation or does someone actually say this?

I think that is just extrapolation. Nothing is ever stated. We don't even know if Oob is using all of Pure Boo's Ki.

In a few months I doubt Goku and Vegeta could make that much of difference while training. Though I guess taking into consideration the RoSaT with Gohan it is a possibility. Goku would be sparring with either Beerus or Whis which are a great deal stronger than him and Akira Toriyama said that Saiyan's get stronger the more they fight so that Gap would quickly vanish.

[fadeddreams5]

How strong is Base God Goku and God Vegeta at? It's mentioned that at the end of Z when Goku is fighting Uub at base form he is as strong as he was SSJ3, but that was before the conception of Beerus/Whis, God Ki, and SSG. Considering first form Freeza managed to KO a rusty Ultimate Gohan with one punch but at his final form was no match for Base God Goku... it seems that The power of end of Z base Goku far exceeds Ssj 3.

What estimate would you put Base Gods Goku and Vegeta? I say they far exceed SSJ 3

- It was never stated or implied that base Goku in EoZ is as strong as his SSJ3 form.
- Gohan is not ultimate in RoF. He lost his powers from lack of training, presumably.

On-topic, Base Goku is probably like 50% the power of SSJG. That's just a rough estimate. I don't think his SSGSSJ transformation multiplies his power level like SSJ1, but rather, allows him to tap into the remaining portion of his SSJG powers. This is just speculation. A 50x boost seems like an exaggeration considering how strong he already is in his base.

[Marlowe89]

Currently, there's no direct confirmation for what base Goku's exact strength level is. The implication of both BoG and RoF is that Goku needs Super Saiyan to draw out the rest of Super Saiyan God's power, but we also know that he can use a degree of that power in base due to his absorption of it in BoG. My guess, personally, is that his strength is probably anywhere from 50% to 70% of Super Saiyan God's strength. His training from Whis probably boosted him a bit over his base level in BoG, though.

[Duo]

I went back and watched BoG for the part where Goku fights as "base" in the movie and noticed that he only lands 1 hit before he goes Super Saiyan. So maybe it really is a bit of a weakened state. Thankfully everything is so vague there's not really any way to make sense of it.

[SSJsambosoldier]

It's mentioned that at the end of Z when Goku is fighting Uub at base form he is as strong as he was SSJ3,

??

Is this an extrapolation or does someone actually say this?

I think I read this stated somewhere several times in wikis and forums how end of z Goku is as strong as ssj3 buu saga goku... But I guess I'm wrong

[Tectorman]

I went back and watched BoG for the part where Goku fights as "base" in the movie and noticed that he only lands 1 hit before he goes Super Saiyan. So maybe it really is a bit of a weakened state. Thankfully everything is so vague there's not really any way to make sense of it.

He only lands one hit but does a fair job dodging Beers's many energy blasts. Not to mention he notices neither a difference in the power he has available nor how well he's fighting against Beers.

I don't think there was any real difference when he went back to Base.

Goku SSJG 80%: 4.8
Goku God-Remnant Base: 4.8
Goku God-Remnant SSJ: 5.95
Goku SSJG Last Effort: 6

[Hitiro]

I think I read this stated somewhere several times in wikis and forums how end of z Goku is as strong as ssj3 buu saga goku... But I guess I'm wrong

Those are just general assumptions by people to determine how Goku could go up against Oob, prior to the BoG movie of course. But nothing states that Oob released his full power during this fight. Goku could have also suppressed himself to fight on a safer level with Oob as if Goku was going all out he'd probably take the kids head off if he isn't drawing on the Pure boo's power. There are any number of ways you could look at the scenario really.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

- Gohan is not ultimate in RoF. He lost his powers from lack of training, presumably.

We don't know if he had lost it, since he didn't even get a chance to use it. He held back against Freeza's soldiers & only used base, and he only used SS to one-shot Shisami. He then went back to base, and suddenly Freeza attacked him and nearly killed him. He didn't fight after that.

On-topic, Base Goku is probably like 50% the power of SSJG.

Beerus says in BoG that Goku's power decreased insignificantly after he absrobed the power. A x2 decrease is a huge decrease. Plus, the FnF manga confirms that base Goku is about as strong as in Super Saiyan God.

[Marlowe89]

Plus, the FnF manga confirms that base Goku is about as strong as in Super Saiyan God.

It confirmed that Goku was using God ki for that one punch he tried to land on Whis, followed very shortly by a half-asleep Beerus nearly killing him with a casual ki blast. If anything, the RoF manga suggests that base Goku isn't on that level.

[Hitiro]

It confirmed that Goku was using God ki for that one punch he tried to land on Whis, followed very shortly by a half-asleep Beerus nearly killing him with a casual ki blast. If anything, the RoF manga suggests that base Goku isn't on that level.

Not necessarily. Goku only managed to get Beerus to fight at 70% of his power. In a rage that blast Beerus launched could easily be a Ki blast with his maximum Ki output.

[Marlowe89]

Not necessarily. Goku only managed to get Beerus to fight at 70% of his power. In a rage that blast Beerus launched could easily be a Ki blast with his maximum Ki output.

I find that doubtful. This is the same Beerus that destroyed an entire planet with a mere sneeze in the film, much to Goku's personal amazement. It's pretty clear that he's being portrayed as something else compared to base Goku even at very casual levels of strength, just as it was clear in BoG that Goku went Super Saiyan almost immediately after absorbing SSG.

[ZombieVito]

- Gohan is not ultimate in RoF. He lost his powers from lack of training, presumably.

We don't know if he had lost it, since he didn't even get a chance to use it. He held back against Freeza's soldiers & only used base, and he only used SS to one-shot Shisami. He then went back to base, and suddenly Freeza attacked him and nearly killed him. He didn't fight after that.

On-topic, Base Goku is probably like 50% the power of SSJG.

Beerus says in BoG that Goku's power decreased insignificantly after he absrobed the power. A x2 decrease is a huge decrease. Plus, the FnF manga confirms that base Goku is about as strong as in Super Saiyan God.

That scene in the manga is not in the movie.

[Hitiro]

I find that doubtful. This is the same Beerus that destroyed an entire planet with a mere sneeze in the film, much to Goku's personal amazement. It's pretty clear that he's being portrayed as something else compared to base Goku even at very casual levels of strength, just as it was clear in BoG that Goku went Super Saiyan almost immediately after absorbing SSG.

It wasn't that immediate. Goku was a base Saiyan, and got some good hits in, for at least a good 10 seconds before Beerus raged and launched blasts everywhere making Goku turn into a SSJ. Beerus also said Goku's power didn't diminish that much after losing the form. So SSJ didn't offer anything to the table. Probably why Goku upgraded his SSJ form in the recent film to have a form that at least amplifies his current strength.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Continuing our debate from the movie thread...

he definitely relied on these transformations after absorbing his God power initially. There's really no disputing this.

But he didn't rely on these transformations, he transform instinctively by accident. Goku reverted from God to base, didn't notice it, and he could still fight with Beerus like he did before. According to Beerus, his power didn't decrease significantly. Which means that Saiyan beyond God Goku is slightly weaker than God Goku.

Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan against Beerus because he got angry by accident, not because he needed it. He fought more aggressively than before, but he still couldn't do anything to Beerus, like he couldn't do anything before. Beerus also made no comment about SS giving Goku any increase or decrease compared to his base & God forms respectively. So, Saiyan beyond God SS Goku is very slightly stronger than Saiyan beyond God Goku, if he is any stronger at all. Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3 would have the same effect, presumably.

Goku then transformed again into a Super Saiyan God by accident, because he gave his all (and transformed to his most powerful form) in that instant while trying to stop Beerus' blast, and he succeeded to nullify it. He didn't rely to it, he used it instinctively, since he didn't even know that he transformed again.

So, BoG shows us that Super Saiyan God & Saiyan beyond God (including the transformations in that state) are at around the same level, with SbG being insignificantly weaker than SSG.

And then, we learn in FnF that Goku can combine regular Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God to create a new form, Super Saiyan God SS, which is stronger than his SbG state.

Gathering all these, we get that SbG (base/SS) <= SSG < SSGSS. Even the promotional material confirm that this form is his most powerful so far (ignoring GT).

The scene with Beerus destroying planets just show us that they are still far below his full power IMO. Goku fought with him while he was using 70% of his power and never saw anything above that. The fact that he was surprised by his power means that Beerus was using more than 70% of his power when destroying these planets, which is extremely possible, given that he was angry at that moment.

[Marlowe89]

But he didn't rely on these transformations, he transform instinctively by accident. Goku reverted from God to base, didn't notice it, and he could still fight with Beerus like he did before. According to Beerus, his power didn't decrease significantly. Which means that Saiyan beyond God Goku is slightly weaker than God Goku.

Once again, the only thing that was ever specified is that Goku didn't notice his absorption of SSG. It was never once stated or even implied that Goku didn't notice going back into Super Saiyan. That makes no sense. He's so familiar with that form that he's always aware of tapping into it. You're literally just making this part up.

Also, the insinuation of Beerus' claim still suggests that Goku lost some degree of strength when powering back down to base, and "insignificant" does nothing to specify exactly how little power Goku lost. Either way, your claim that base Goku is as strong as SSG Goku is effectively disproven by Beerus' statement. It doesn't help your argument, it only hurts it.

Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan against Beerus because he got angry by accident, not because he needed it. He fought more aggressively than before, but he still couldn't do anything to Beerus, like he couldn't do anything before. Beerus also made no comment about SS giving Goku any increase or decrease compared to his base & God forms respectively. So, Saiyan beyond God SS Goku is very slightly stronger than Saiyan beyond God Goku, if he is any stronger at all.

It could indeed be slight, I never said otherwise. But that would still mean that his Super Saiyan state is tapping more into SSG's power than before, regardless of whether he's using it instinctively or not.

Goku then transformed again into a Super Saiyan God by accident, because he gave his all (and transformed to his most powerful form) in that instant while trying to stop Beerus' blast, and he succeeded to nullify it. He didn't rely to it, he used it instinctively, since he didn't even know that he transformed again.

You're really only proving my point here. Whether he triggered it instinctively or not, he couldn't nullify the attack without it. We were specifically shown this, so any argument that SSG is no more powerful than base is moot.

And then, we learn in FnF that Goku can combine regular Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God to create a new form.

Headcanon. Goku calls it "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", nothing more and nothing less. It's by definition not a new form. It isn't even fundamentally different from the first Super Saiyan state in BoG considering that it, too, was essentially SS with the power of SSG, and the difference in color appears to demonstrate Goku's mastery of God ki or tapping into the full power of SSG more than anything. Also, vague ads prove nothing.

The scene with Beerus destroying planets just show us that they are still far below his full power IMO. Goku fought with him while he was using 70% of his power and never saw anything above that. The fact that he was surprised by his power means that Beerus was using more than 70% of his power when destroying these planets, which is extremely possible, given that he was angry at that moment.

Goku was only using around 80% of his power while in SSG, so no, that doesn't at all suggest that Beerus used more than 70% of his power when casually blowing up planets. He SNEEZED. You're grasping at straws.

When you have to make up things that were never shown or stated, chances are your argument isn't particularly strong. The implication has always been Base <= SS < SSG = SSGSS and that's that.

[Hitiro]

Once again, the only thing that was ever specified is that Goku didn't notice his absorption of SSG. It was never once stated or even implied that Goku didn't notice going back into Super Saiyan. That makes no sense. He's so familiar with that form that he's always aware of tapping into it. You're literally just making this part up.

No, Beerus told Goku that he had lost SSJGod. Goku was surprised that he had lost the form. If he was unaware that he had lost the form then why would he be aware that he was a SSJ? Because it would be obvious if he was aware of himself turning into a SSJ that he had lost the SSJGod form. My simple process of elimination we should be able to tell that if he doesn't know he lost the SSJGod form then he must not know he turned SSJ during the fight. Otherwise he should know that he has lost the SSJGod form.

Also, the insinuation of Beerus' claim still suggests that Goku lost some degree of strength when powering back down to base, and "insignificant" does nothing to specify exactly how little power Goku lost. Either way, your claim that base Goku is as strong as SSG Goku is effectively disproven by Beerus' statement. It doesn't help your argument, it only hurts it.

"Insignificant" would suggest that his power is practically no different than what it was while he was a SSJGod. If he his battle power was 900 billion and he lost 1 unit from that 900 billion making it 899,999,999,999 then he is still as strong as SSJGod Goku(To the point that if Base Goku fought against SSJGod Goku it wouldn't make a difference).

It could indeed be slight, I never said otherwise. But that would still mean that his Super Saiyan state is tapping more into SSG's power than before, regardless of whether he's using it instinctively or not.

Nothing is stated about SSJ during the film so this is a pointless argument really. For all we know the original SSJ form is incompatible with the God Ki and thus didn't amplify his Ki whatsoever.

You're really only proving my point here. Whether he triggered it instinctively or not, he couldn't nullify the attack without it. We were specifically shown this, so any argument that SSG is no more powerful than base is moot.

We can't claim that without SSJGod he couldn't nullify the attack. For all we know he was out of strength before his friends re-activated SSJGod for him. Because he did lose SSJ while trying to stop Beerus' attack. So if he lost his SSJ form he must be out of stamina, or close to it. He also looked warn out before SSJGod being re-activated.

Headcanon. Goku calls it "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", nothing more and nothing less. It's by definition not a new form. It isn't even fundamentally different from the first Super Saiyan state in BoG considering that it, too, was essentially SS with the power of SSG, and the difference in color appears to demonstrate Goku's mastery of God ki or tapping into the full power of SSG more than anything. Also, vague ads prove nothing.

We don't even know if the SSJ state in BoG even amplified the power of SSJGod.

Goku was only using around 80% of his power while in SSG, so no, that doesn't at all suggest that Beerus used more than 70% of his power when casually blowing up planets. He SNEEZED. You're grasping at straws.

Goku was only using 80% before Beerus made him take the fight seriously. The dialogue itself says that. So SSJGod Goku at 100% still doesn't match against 70% Beerus. It is highly possible that Beerus launched a Ki blast with more than 70% of his power at them when he was angry.

[Birusu16]

Don't really care to get too involved in this argument, but Beerus didn't say insignificant in regards to Goku's power. He said he didn't power down "too much", which suggests he did indeed lose some power. He also said Goku managed to absorb "some" of the SSJG forms power, not all of it, which yet again suggests he did indeed lose some power.

The fact that he had to turn into SSJG in order to stop Beerus' attack is another indication that he lost some power when losing the god form.

There's far more indicators that suggest he lost some power after losing the form than evidence for the contrary.