Power levels over-estimated?

[James R. Cadwell]

I've always seen people make the claim that the characters in DBZ can effortlessly generate the raw energy necessary to destroy Earth-sized planets and possibly even entire solar systems and galaxies by the end of the series.

However; it seems to me that the characters in DBZ are actually fairly limited in their ability to direct high levels of energy. They can either (a): use a low-kiloton level "ki" attack, or (b): use a planet-destroying attack. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground when it comes to selecting how much energy the characters want to use in their attacks. They rarely use anything significantly more powerful than a city-destroying attack but less powerful than a planet-destroying attack.

My thought was that the discrepancy in power implies some sort of runaway chain-reaction which occurs whenever too much "ki" is directed into the planet. They wouldn't actually be applying the energy necessary to overcome the gravitational-binding energy of the planet, yadda-yadda-yadda, they would just be using enough "ki" to start a chain-reaction which consumes the entire planet. (which might only require an amount of "ki" marginally greater than what is usually used in the average "ki" attack.)

This would explain how Muten Roshi was able to destroy Earth's moon in DBZ while he never tried using "Kamehameha" against Cell or Majin Buu. (who were affected by energy levels far lower than what is necessary to destroy the moon) He wasn't actually destroying the moon through direct energy transfer, he was just pumping enough "ki" into it to start a chain-reaction.

This would also explain why it took five minutes for Freeza's energy attack to destroy Namek. If it was a direct transfer of energy, the planet would have exploded immediately. It didn't, so it must have been some type of chain-reaction.

So my conclusion would be that characters don't necessarily have the ability to destroy planets using raw energy, they "cheat" and use their "ki" as a catalyst to start a chain-reaction.

[TripleRach]

That all sounds good, but there's one thing: When Kamesennin destroyed the moon, it was pretty instantaneous. Certainly Nameck was considerably larger than Earth's moon, but Freeza was likely stronger than Kamesennin by a much greater factor.

[James R. Cadwell]

That all sounds good, but there's one thing: When Kamesennin destroyed the moon, it was pretty instantaneous. Certainly Nameck was considerably larger than Earth's moon, but Freeza was likely stronger than Kamesennin by a much greater factor.

If it's a chain-reaction like I proposed, relative strength would be irrelevant. The chain-reaction would propogate at the same rate regardless of who initiated it, unless energy was being continuously applied to the planet and was distributed in a way that enhanced the effect. As I recall, Kamesennin used the "Kamehameha" technique which is a continuous wave of energy as opposed to the ball of "ki" Freeza used, which I assume burrowed to the center of Namek and started the reaction there. (didn't Freeza attempt basically the same thing when he fought Trunks on Earth?) I think that helps to eliminate the discrepancy in time.

Namek was also approximately the same size as Earth, which has over eighty times the mass of the moon. After you consider the fact that the moon has a largely homogenous composition which would tend to support the type of chain-reaction I was theorizing, the two separate events become easily reconcilable.

[Dayspring]

I think we're reading a bit too much into PLs at this point. When Kame-Sennin blew up the moon (1/6th the volume of Earth), Toriyama was thinking only in terms of "he's really strong". Same goes with everybody after Freeza from after Form 2. It was the Daizenshuu that gave form 4 100% and SSJ Goku, and once they realized how insane they were getting they didn't even bother to tackle after the Freeza saga. For all we really know each Freeza transformation adds a consistant 470,000 to his PL, and SSJ Goku's PL was only 2,000,000 where 100% Final Form Freeza would therefore be at 1,940,000. Then by the time Kid Boo comes along SSJ3 Goku's PL could really only be at 10 to 15 million. Please don't get into a frenzy and try to kill me. This is based on nothing since I'm obviously not including the Daizenshuu PLs, making Freeza's 2nd form the highest PL ever mentioned by far.

[Kodoshin]

The only reason Freeza didn't destroy Namek instantly was he held back too much, he was afraid of getting caught in the explosion, Goku states this. Freeza mentions his blast did destroy the core though and thats why it'll blow up 5 minutes later.

So it's very clear from that, that the characters can generate the energy for the instant destruction of a planet quite easily, especially given that Freeza wasn't even using his full power yet.

[James R. Cadwell]

The only reason Freeza didn't destroy Namek instantly was he held back too much, he was afraid of getting caught in the explosion, Goku states this.

That actually indicates that Freeza cannot directly apply the energy required to destroy the planet, otherwise he could have simply moved into space and destroyed the planet in a way that would direct the debris away from himself. Alternatively, he could have just used enough energy to fragment the planet without overcoming the gravitation binding energy, which would have had essentially the same effect as destroying the planet -- depriving Goku of a breathable atmosphere and killing him.

Freeza mentions his blast did destroy the core though and thats why it'll blow up 5 minutes later.

There's no way of destroying the core of a planet without also shattering the planet. Namek was not visually damaged to the extent that you would expect if the core was instantly destroyed.

So it's very clear from that, that the characters can generate the energy for the instant destruction of a planet quite easily, especially given that Freeza wasn't even using his full power yet.

The minimum energy required to destroy an Earth-sized planet is roughly 2.240E32 joules. That's something like 5E17 times stronger than the energy attacks we normally see the characters use. What explains the discrepancy in power between the average energy attack and the planetary destruction events if there isn't a mechanism other than direct energy transfer involved in the latter? (like a chain-reaction)

It just doesn't make sense that the characters would possess the energy to destroy a planet but use less than a 500,000 trillionth of that when they're fighting.

[Kodoshin]

It's safe to say that Goku wasn't going to just let him go out of the atmosphere to destroy the planet.

And as far as that goes, no matter what you say, Freeza did destroy the core "detonated" it if you wanna go by what the Viz translation was. and thats the reason the planet blewup 5 minutes later.

I don't know enough about science to say if that holds up or not to "real science" on how a planet blows up, but it apparently works that way in the Dragon Ball world.

I also severely doubt Toriyama was considering the properties you are trying to apply to his work while writing it. It happens in a fantasy universe, it's rather silly to think that every single property of our universe would transfer over to it.

I always thought that the characters channeled their energy into a single point (causing all damage to happen in a intense specifc radius) to prevent themselves from destroying the world during their battles, while releasing massive amounts of energy.

[James R. Cadwell]

And as far as that goes, no matter what you say, Freeza did destroy the core "detonated" it if you wanna go by what the Viz translation was. and thats the reason the planet blewup 5 minutes later.

So Freeza's energy ball burrowed into the core of the planet, "detonated" the core and five minutes later the rest of the planet was destroyed. If you consider the fact that Freeza may have been using imprecise, conversational language, his statement could easily be reconciled with the "chain-reaction" theory.

I don't know enough about science to say if that holds up or not to "real science" on how a planet blows up, but it apparently works that way in the Dragon Ball world.

Look at it this way: If Freeza's energy ball burrowed into the planet and "detonated" the core, then where did the additional energy come from to finally destroy the planet? If it all came from Freeza's attack, then the planet would have been destroyed immediately. I think it makes perfect sense that Freeza's attack set off some type of catastrophic chain-reaction in Namek's core which eventually reached a critical energy level and destroyed the planet.

I always thought that the characters channeled their energy into a single point (causing all damage to happen in a intense specifc radius) to prevent themselves from destroying the world during their battles, while releasing massive amounts of energy.

We've seen energy attacks strike the ground, mountains, vehicles, and a number of other things and there's rarely a corresponding explosion greater than a few kilotons at best.

[Kodoshin]

It is stated that the attack would of destroyed the whole planet right then if he hadn't held back, thats all that matters, thats proof enough.

But since he only detonated the core since he held back too much, he would have to rely on that for the explosion to happen, you are trying to avoid the actual statement that if he hadn't held back everything would of been gone.

And you didn't understand what I meant about the single point stuff: Lets use this as an example:

Freeza survived the planet blowing up, but Trunks vaporized his body rather easily. I'm thinking that in that space where Freeza is, Trunks can release an energy attack more powerful than that planets explosion but all the damage resulting from it happens in the space where the attack occurs not spreading out from there (also explains why characters dont typically sustain kickback damage from their own blasts at close range).

EDIT: Just to a bit clearer I think they have to purposely channel their energy in this fashion, if they were just wide open then I think they would be wiping stuff out left and right.

Just my opinon on how it works though, certainly nothing I'd try force on people.

[James R. Cadwell]

It is stated that the attack would of destroyed the whole planet right then if he hadn't held back, thats all that matters, thats proof enough.

Right, but that doesn't discount the chain-reaction theory, which is more consistant with events elsewhere in the series.

But since he only detonated the core since he held back too much, he would have to rely on that for the explosion to happen.

Which conclusively demonstrates that a chain-reaction mechanism was involved in Namek's destruction. Freeza's energy attack only acted as a catalyst.

you are trying to avoid the actual statement that if he hadn't held back everything would of been gone.

I'm sure that Freeza would have had the ability to accelerate the chain-reaction which destroyed Namek -- after all, Kamesennin destroyed the moon in what was probably a proportionately shorter timespan through continuous application of energy.

I'm thinking that in that space where Freeza is, Trunks can release an energy attack more powerful than that planets explosion but all the damage resulting from it happens in the space where the attack occurs not spreading out from there (also explains why characters dont typically sustain kickback damage from their own blasts at close range).

So where did the energy go after Freeza was killed? Usually energy attacks continue off into space or strike the ground, where they release only a few kilotons of energy.

[Kodoshin]

Please tell me where the Turtle Hermit stated he destroyed the moon by causing a chain reaction in it, he didn't he destroyed it by blowing it up with his max power Kamehameha, so stop trying to pass off your chain reaction theory like it's official.

As far as the energy that Trunks used there, we dont even see it the panel after, I just figured in that case it disapated when he cutoff the flow of ki.

[James R. Cadwell]

Please tell me where the Turtle Hermit stated he destroyed the moon by causing a chain reaction in it, he didn't he destroyed it by blowing it up with his max power Kamehameha, so stop trying to pass off your chain reaction theory like it's official.

So why didn't he use "Kamehameha" to attack Majin Buu? Gotenks was able to affect Buu with his "Kamikaze Ghost" technique, and that was an explosive attack which only released energy in the kiloton range. The energy required to destroy the moon is millions of times greater.

Furthermore, if it was direct energy transfer, why was there no recoil? Kamesennin couldn't fly, so there was no way for him to apply the counter-force necessary to maintain his position.

The chain-reaction theory is far more consistant with the effects of "ki" than direct energy transfer.

As far as the energy that Trunks used there, we dont even see it the panel after, I just figured in that case it disapated when he cutoff the flow of ki.

Dissipated where?

"Ki" is a mystical form of energy, so it makes sense that it wouldn't be restricted by the laws of thermodynamics. But that also means that it wouldn't necessarily require an amount of "ki" equivalent to 2.240E32 joules in order to destroy a planet. A "mystical" chain-reaction (which is exactly what I'm proposing) fits the demonstrated effects of "ki" better than direct energy transfer.

[Kodoshin]

I would like to know where you got the exact measure of energy released by these attacks? Oh thats right, you made them up yourself by trying to apply our universe physics to a fantasy world, in which pigs talk and people just bounce around from planet to planet unconcerned about not being able to survive cause of atmospheric differences.

You keep trying to apply our physics to the Dragon Ball world, if so please tell me why the planet seemed rather uneffected by the lack of a moon, you know that wouldn't be the case in real life.

I'm suggesting that Muten Roshi's, Kamehameha wouldn't have the power to wipeout, Majin Boo but can easily destroy the moon.

I'm also suggesting that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was more powerful than Muten-Roshi's, Kamehameha that blewup the moon, only with all the damage focused into one tiny specific area.

Trunks attack was quite different from most attacks in that it appeared his blast was still connected to his body while lasting only a brief instant, as if he turned it on, then off at the flick of a switch. I'm suggesting that he unleashed his attack in that spot and once he felt it had accomplished it's goal cutoff the flow of ki into that area entirely.

Also one more example: 18 called one of Vegeta's ki blasts "half-assed", he then said that if he were to cut loose the whole world would be gone, this idea didn't seem to amaze her or appear as a bluff.

[James R. Cadwell]

I would like to know where you got the exact measure of energy released by these attacks?

The environmental effects of the average "ki" blast are consistant with a kiloton-level energy release. Saying that an explosion which has precisely the same environmental effects as a kiloton explosion isn't a kiloton explosion because it occurs in a fictional universe is like saying that Cell isn't green because his skin pigments only exist in a fictional universe.

Oh thats right, you made them up yourself by trying to apply our universe physics to a fantasy world, in which pigs talk and people just bounce around from planet to planet unconcerned about not being able to survive cause of atmospheric differences.

Toriyama included all of our basic laws of physics. Gravity, energy, space and just about all of the other concepts that make up the backbone of real world physics exist in the Dragonball universe. Humans exist on DB Earth, so the physical constants can't be radically different. What's wrong with applying our laws of physics to the DB universe? Toriyama already established that the meter, lightyear and other forms of measurement from this universe exist in DB.

You keep trying to apply our physics to the Dragon Ball world, if so please tell me why the planet seemed rather uneffected by the lack of a moon, you know that wouldn't be the case in real life.

Kami restored the moon. Considering that he was acting as Earth's god at that point, it's not an outrageous assumption to conclude that Kami was also instrumental in preventing whatever debris was produced from striking the Earth and limiting the environmental effects of the moon's disappearance.

I'm suggesting that Muten Roshi's, Kamehameha wouldn't have the power to wipeout, Majin Boo but can easily destroy the moon.

Yes, and those types of inconsistancies are best reconciled with a theory like mine.

I'm also suggesting that the Super Ghost Kamikaze attack was more powerful than Muten-Roshi's, Kamehameha that blewup the moon, only with all the damage focused into one tiny specific area.

Then your logic is inconsistant. You're implying that:

Energy necessary to destroy the moon applied to the moon = destruction of moon. (Kamesennin's "Kamehameha".)

Energy necessary to destroy the moon applied on the surface of Earth = environmental effects consistant with a kiloton-level explosion. (Gotenks's "Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack".)

Dramatically different results even though the energy involved is precisely the same. The mechanism you proposed to explain why it's possible to use that much energy on Earth without the corresponding environmental effects isn't falsifiable or parsimonious.

Trunks attack was quite different from most attacks in that it appeared his blast was still connected to his body while lasting only a brief instant, as if he turned it on, then off at the flick of a switch. I'm suggesting that he unleashed his attack in that spot and once he felt it had accomplished it's goal cutoff the flow of ki into that area entirely.

But according to you, he had already released an amount of energy sufficient to destroy the planet. Where did it go?

Also one more example: 18 called one of Vegeta's ki blasts "half-assed", he then said that if he were to cut loose the whole world would be gone, this idea didn't seem to amaze her or appear as a bluff.

How is that inconsistant with my chain-reaction theory?

In any event, the fact remains that the one clear example of planetary destruction is consistant with a chain-reaction and not with direct energy transfer.

[Kodoshin]

Once again, you failed to provide me with how you cameup with exact measures for the energy release from ki blasts.

The earth went many years without a moon in Dragon Ball, your telling me that instead of just remaking the moon then that Kami decided to wait years and years to do it while trying to somehow stop environmental fallout (such as us having 6 hour days)? Thats pretty ludicrous, just like trying to force our physics on Dragon Ball is.

I do not see how the Roshi, Kamehameha blowing up the moon but not killing Majin Boo is an inconsistency in the slightest.

I'm implying that if one wanted to channel their ki in such a way as to destroy the moon, then they could. But if they wanted to release an energy greater than that which could destroy the moon but in a smaller area, thus not having the devastating effects of total planetary destruction, but a greater effect on the target area (usually another living being) in terms of potential damage done, that they could do that as well (it's a skill I'm saying).

The energy Trunks used, I'm suggesting was almost like he was using a yoyo or switch, he released the energy and then since it never actually seemed to become disconnected from him, he either simply cutoff the flow of ki since Freeza was longer there to receive it or drew it back in somehow.

The attack Vegeta used that 18 commented on was a direct ki blast on a truck, the implication he made was if he was to let loose the whole planet would of been gone. He didn't act as if he would have to cause a chain reaction is what I'm saying.

And how about when Majin Boo destroyed earth? the Kibit Kaioshin had to rescue Goku because the destruction would have been so instantanious that he didn't have the time to pull of Instantanious Movement, yet your suggesting that he had to cheat and use a chain reaction to do that? It seems to me like your just trying to shove your square piece into a round hole to say your theory works.

[James R. Cadwell]

Once again, you failed to provide me with how you cameup with exact measures for the energy release from ki blasts.

The environmental effects are usually consistant with energy in the kiloton range and not greater. Very simple concept.

The earth went many years without a moon in Dragon Ball, your telling me that instead of just remaking the moon then that Kami decided to wait years and years to do it while trying to somehow stop environmental fallout (such as us having 6 hour days)?

When did Kami restore the moon?

Thats pretty ludicrous, just like trying to force our physics on Dragon Ball is.

But Toriyama included our physics in the Dragonball universe. I recall gravity, energy and all of the other fundamentals of physics being present and accounted for.

I'm implying that if one wanted to channel their ki in such a way as to destroy the moon, then they could. But if they wanted to release an energy greater than that which could destroy the moon but in a smaller area, thus not having the devastating effects of total planetary destruction, but a greater effect on the target area (usually another living being) in terms of potential damage done, that they could do that as well (it's a skill I'm saying).

You're saying that "ki" attacks which cause environmental damage(cratering, area of effect) consistant with kiloton level energy are actually over a million trillion times more powerful, regardless of the visual evidence. I'm saying that those same "ki" attacks actually are in the kiloton range and planetary destruction is accomplished through a mechanism unrelated to direct energy transfer. (i.e. a chain-reaction -- something that was irrefutably demonstrated on Namek)

The energy Trunks used, I'm suggesting was almost like he was using a yoyo or switch, he released the energy and then since it never actually seemed to become disconnected from him, he either simply cutoff the flow of ki since Freeza was longer there to receive it or drew it back in somehow.

Okay. Now explain all of the other times that characters have used "ki" attacks which only cause minor explosions when they strike the ground.

The attack Vegeta used that 18 commented on was a direct ki blast on a truck...

...and it didn't vaporize the pieces of the truck, if I recall correctly, which implies that it was an exceptionally weak attack that probably wasn't even approaching the kiloton range. Vegeta expected to affect #18 with that attack, didn't he?

...the implication he made was if he was to let loose the whole planet would of been gone. He didn't act as if he would have to cause a chain reaction is what I'm saying.

Vegeta said he could destroy the planet. Vegeta can destroy the planet. I'm saying that the energy he would need to use in order to do that is significantly less than what you would expect because a chain-reaction contributes to the explosion.

Besides, it's not like Vegeta is a scientist who would use precise language when he described his abilities. Of course he would say "I can blow up the planet" as opposed to "Ha-ha, I am the Saiya-jin prince and I can overcome the gravitational binding energy of this planet by inducing a catastrophic chain-reaction with the mystical energy I have trained myself to manipulate."

And how about when Majin Boo destroyed earth? the Kibit Kaioshin had to rescue Goku because the destruction would have been so instantanious that he didn't have the time to pull of Instantanious Movement...

It was so instantaneous that it was faster than moving instantaneously? Yet somehow Kibit-Kaioshin was fast enough to use his teleportation technique and grab Goku's hand? Are you certain that Goku wasn't able to escape the explosion in time because he couldn't locate a "ki" signature to teleport to?

...yet your suggesting that he had to cheat and use a chain reaction to do that? It seems to me like your just trying to shove your square piece into a round hole to say your theory works.

In the anime, Buu's "ki" attack struck the planet at roughly a 45 degree angle and the planet detonated with the core as the focal point of the explosion in the subsequent scene. Is this generally consistant with the manga?

[Kodoshin]

Before I even address the other stuff: theres something I want to get out of the way right here:

Form 2 Cell - When he was on the verge of defeat after he reverted to this form, he balooned himself up and was about to destroy the earth, he didn't have to shoot downwards or anything he just had to blowup and it would of been the end of the earth everyone realized that. Gohan was at full power and could of easily blown him to hell with a Kamehameha at this point but it was made a point that he couldn't do that or it would be the end of everything with the resulting explosion. No aiming down no nothing.

Later on when Majin Vegeta is fighting Majin Boo, he decides to blow himself up, him doing this would certainly have a greater energy output than that of form 2 Cell blowing himself up, but he managed to contain the blast into a relatively tiny area taking out only himself and Majin Boo. If Cell blowing up was for sure the end of the world yet Majin Vegeta doing this wasn't, then I think that would prove my controlling energy theory rather well, along with my other point.

As far as the moon goes, it was blown up at the 21st Tenkaichi Tournament, it wasn't restored til Goku was training for the 23rd Tenkaichi Tournament.

About the instantanious movement thing, Goku's line was something like "I cant perform instantanious movement in this brief instant" so maybe he was talking about a signature but you would think he'd have a target place in mind already.

I'm not actually sure of the representation of the world being destroyed in the manga from the Boo era manga art.

Edit: What I mean is it's been so long since I actually saw that, that I couldn't tell you anymore.

But nevertheless, I think the start of this post proves my points well enough.

[James R. Cadwell]

If Cell blowing up was for sure the end of the world yet Majin Vegeta doing this wasn't, then I think that would prove my controlling energy theory rather well, along with my other point.

Or Vegeta didn't want to blow up the planet, so he used less energy.

[Kodoshin]

So your saying that Vegeta thought that he could possibly defeat Majin Boo by blowing himself up with less force output than that of Form 2 Cell, while Boo had a massive ki far greater than that? That sounds rather silly.

Considering he's staking his entire life on this technique he'd have to be putting in a very significant amount of energy.

[James R. Cadwell]

So your saying that Vegeta thought that he could possibly defeat Majin Boo by blowing himself up with less force output than that of Form 2 Cell, while Boo had a massive ki far greater than that? That sounds rather silly.

Sure. Cell self-destructed specifically with the intention of destroying Earth, so he would have been attempting to induce the type of chain-reaction I've mentioned throughout this topic. Vegeta didn't want to destroy the planet, so he would have been limited to the maximum amount of energy he was capable of generating on his own. Judging by the fact that the inside walls of the crater he produced were not vitrified, it was a largely concussive blast which had a fragmentary effect on the surrounding rock. The cratering energy for a kilometer-diameter crater in granite is only about 180 kilotons, assuming perfect efficiency and the appropriate directional application.