Dragonballs and their creator...

[BlackMagick]

This topic has likely been covered somewhere on this forum, but I can't find the answer to it for the life of me. But anyway, you guys know how one of the Dragonballs' rules is that the power of the Dragonballs depends on the creator? Well, what exactly does that mean in the context of their actual use vs. Kami or Dende's actual ability to do certain things? For example, if the Dragonballs' power is limited by the creator and the Dragonballs were used to wish people back to life, does that mean that the creator has to possess that ability as well? If Kami or Dende CAN resurrect the dead, then why haven't they done that without using to Dragonballs? Maybe that rule doesn't refer to literal ability to do certain things (I would hope not), I'm guessing that refers to just magical ability. I would like for someone to clear this up, if it's not too much trouble. Sorry if this topic has been visited too many times.

[Doctor.]

I just interpreted that notion as "the dragon cannot affect beings who are stronger than his creator" not that the creator of Shenlong/Porunga possess the same abilities as the dragon they create, otherwise the Dragon Balls would be pretty useless.

[dbgtFO]

It would seem, that Kami and Dende can't bring people back to life with their own power(or aren't allowed to by their higher-ups?), but they can impart their power into their Dragons to do so.
It would probably make more sense, if their Dragons weren't really their creations, but rather Gods having existed since time immemorial with Namekians having the magical capacity to summon them like in Toyble's AF.

[Kamiccolo9]

It would seem, that Kami and Dende can't bring people back to life with their own power(or aren't allowed to by their higher-ups?), but they can impart their power into their Dragons to do so.
It would probably make more sense, if their Dragons weren't really their creations, but rather Gods having existed since time immemorial with Namekians having the magical capacity to summon them like in Toyble's AF.

Well, Kami revived Shenron, along with creating him in the first place. So that shows us that he's capable of creating life. It is also never indicated to be a different dragon after he was revived, so we know that Kami was at least capable of resurrecting him.

I just go with "gods can't directly intervene in mortal affairs." Ties in pretty well with why Kami didn't interfere with Daimao's invasions.

[dbgtFO]

It would seem, that Kami and Dende can't bring people back to life with their own power(or aren't allowed to by their higher-ups?), but they can impart their power into their Dragons to do so.
It would probably make more sense, if their Dragons weren't really their creations, but rather Gods having existed since time immemorial with Namekians having the magical capacity to summon them like in Toyble's AF.

Well, Kami revived Shenron, along with creating him in the first place. So that shows us that he's capable of creating life. It is also never indicated to be a different dragon after he was revived, so we know that Kami was at least capable of resurrecting him.

With the whole Kami somehow remembering how to create Dragon Balls explanation he gave Popo.. if they ever decide to go in the direction Toyble took DB lore, they could explain it with Shenlong somehow influencing Kami to create him just like that.
Don't worry, I don't intend to dispute that it was a different Dragon Kami and later Dende brought back.

I just go with "gods can't directly intervene in mortal affairs." Ties in pretty well with why Kami didn't interfere with Daimao's invasions.

Yes, I do think that makes sense, still it's still a bit of a mystery of the Namekians creating the Dragon Balls in the first place. Perhaps excessive use of their magical powers exhausts them or something or maybe the resulting Dragon has magical ability far exceeding their own?
I digressed a little there, but it's an interesting question.

[BlackMagick]

I just go with "gods can't directly intervene in mortal affairs." Ties in pretty well with why Kami didn't interfere with Daimao's invasions.

Well see, that makes sense and I've thought of that possibility as well. It ties in with most of the Dragonball events, considering that Kami never intervenes. Of course, with the exception of The Dead Zone movie, but I guess since it's not canon, we could shrug that one off.

[Kamiccolo9]

I just go with "gods can't directly intervene in mortal affairs." Ties in pretty well with why Kami didn't interfere with Daimao's invasions.

Well see, that makes sense and I've thought of that possibility as well. It ties in with most of the Dragonball events, considering that Kami never intervenes. Of course, with the exception of The Dead Zone movie, but I guess since it's not canon, we could shrug that one off.

Even considering Dead Zone, Garlic Jr. was gunning for Kami's position. I think it's safe to say that Kami is allowed to defend himself.

[BlackMagick]

I just go with "gods can't directly intervene in mortal affairs." Ties in pretty well with why Kami didn't interfere with Daimao's invasions.

Well see, that makes sense and I've thought of that possibility as well. It ties in with most of the Dragonball events, considering that Kami never intervenes. Of course, with the exception of The Dead Zone movie, but I guess since it's not canon, we could shrug that one off.

Even considering Dead Zone, Garlic Jr. was gunning for Kami's position. I think it's safe to say that Kami is allowed to defend himself.

Yeah, that's true. Didn't think about that.

[rereboy]

This topic has likely been covered somewhere on this forum, but I can't find the answer to it for the life of me. But anyway, you guys know how one of the Dragonballs' rules is that the power of the Dragonballs depends on the creator? Well, what exactly does that mean in the context of their actual use vs. Kami or Dende's actual ability to do certain things? For example, if the Dragonballs' power is limited by the creator and the Dragonballs were used to wish people back to life, does that mean that the creator has to possess that ability as well? If Kami or Dende CAN resurrect the dead, then why haven't they done that without using to Dragonballs? Maybe that rule doesn't refer to literal ability to do certain things (I would hope not), I'm guessing that refers to just magical ability. I would like for someone to clear this up, if it's not too much trouble. Sorry if this topic has been visited too many times.

I interpret it as the Namekians having the potential magical abilities to even bring the dead back to life, but with them being unable to access their full potential without focusing it through the dragon balls as a conduit.

That would be why they created the dragon balls in the first place. To access all their latent magical potential. If they could access it straight away, they wouldn't need the dragon balls.

[Zephyr]

To draw an analogy to Magic: the Gathering....

The power of the creator of the Dragon Balls dictates how much mana the dragon is able to work with. The Dragon, however, has access to spells that the creator does not.

Let's say "bring someone back to life" costs 5 mana. "Kill someone" costs 20 mana. Kami and Dende are only able to grant the dragon 10 mana for any given wish.

[GTX]

the dragon cannot affect beings who are stronger than his creator

affect

You're wrong
1. Removing or eliminate both androids 17 and 18 bombs within their bodies.
2. Restoring Goku's strength to its max in buu saga.
3. Transport Piccolo to Namek.
4. Transport everyone except Goku and Frieza to Earth.
5. Transport Goku to Earth
Porunga could not bring Goku back to Earth, because Goku did not want to return. This is mostly because one of the ruling that's created by porunga to prevent abuse. The other cases are namekian language to make wish for porunga. You cannot revive people that's been revived before (kuririn is a one time bonus, it's stated by shenron in the manga).
6. King Piccolo wishes for his youth to be restored
All of these are considered as affecting someone who's stronger.

This topic has likely been covered somewhere on this forum, but I can't find the answer to it for the life of me. But anyway, you guys know how one of the Dragonballs' rules is that the power of the Dragonballs depends on the creator? Well, what exactly does that mean in the context of their actual use vs. Kami or Dende's actual ability to do certain things? For example, if the Dragonballs' power is limited by the creator and the Dragonballs were used to wish people back to life, does that mean that the creator has to possess that ability as well? If Kami or Dende CAN resurrect the dead, then why haven't they done that without using to Dragonballs? Maybe that rule doesn't refer to literal ability to do certain things (I would hope not), I'm guessing that refers to just magical ability. I would like for someone to clear this up, if it's not too much trouble. Sorry if this topic has been visited too many times.

it's stated in the manga by old kai that dragonball has existed more than 75 millions before age but it's ruled to be restricted to use only for namekian because namekian is a peacefull races. Old kai also stated fearful with the power of dragonballs. So it's implied that namekian mostly able just to summon shenron but they're not the creator.

[rereboy]

You're wrong
1. Removing or eliminate both androids 17 and 18 bombs within their bodies.
2. Restoring Goku's strength to its max in buu saga.
3. Transport Piccolo to Namek.
4. Transport everyone except Goku and Freeza to Earth.
5. Transport Goku to Earth
Porunga could not bring Goku back to Earth, because Goku did not want to return. This is mostly because one of the ruling that's created by porunga to prevent abuse. The other cases are namekian language to make wish for porunga. You cannot revive people that's been revived before (kuririn is a one time bonus, it's stated by shenron in the manga).
6. King Piccolo wishes for his youth to be restored
All of these are considered as affecting someone who's stronger.

1. The dragon specifically tells us that he can only do that because it doesn't really fundamentally change the androids. Turning them human, for example, would do that and thus, he couldn't because, as the dragon said, they were too powerful and strange.
2. That's the same effect as a senzu bean. That's all the dragon did, gave him the same effect as a senzu bean.
3., 4. and 5. As the dragon said, he can't even force someone as powerful as Goku to be transported.
6. Didn't fundamentally change him and he is giving him his express consent. Probably wouldn't even be able to do that if Piccolo Daimao didn't want to.

it's stated in the manga by old kai that dragonball has existed more than 75 millions before age but it's ruled to be restricted to use only for namekian because namekian is a peacefull races. Old kai also stated fearful with the power of dragonballs. So it's implied that namekian mostly able just to summon shenron but they're not the creator.

Nowhere is that implied. All that is said is that the dragon balls and the namekians seemed to already exist 75 millions years ago. Nothing else. Nowhere does it say that the dragon balls originated somewhere else or that they summoned things.

[GTX]

1. The dragon specifically tells us that he can only do that because it doesn't really fundamentally change the androids. Turning them human, for example, would do that and thus, he couldn't because, as the dragon said, they were too powerful and strange.

where do you get this statement i remember he only said it's beyond my power
What is senzu bean has anything to do with sheron power? It has different ruling.
Eventhough it somehow to be true it could be just his own ruling where shenron or dragon races can create and modify their own special rulings regarding the wish most probably to prevent abuse.

Because i don't want it so it will not affect me.

This is contradictory and big statement because magic works to anyone forcibly and it will not affect you just because you did not want it is impossible and contradictive.
One example: instant transmission is forced skill and works to anyone.

[rereboy]

where do you get this statement i remember he only said it's beyond my power

It's what the dragon says in the manga when he is asked to turn them human.

What is senzu bean has anything to do with sheron power? It has different ruling.

It's to demonstrate that it's a simple thing, something that even a senzu could do. Hardy amazing or very powerful. I wasn't implying that they have the same ruling.

Eventhough it somehow to be true it could be just his own ruling where shenron or dragon races can create their own rulings regarding the wish most probably to prevent abuse.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

This is contradictory and big statement because magic works to anyone forcibly and it will not affect you just because you did not want it is impossible and contradictive.

The dragons were stated to have limits and many of those limits were described, like not being able to kill someone stronger than their creator. Nothing of the sort is said for other kinds of magic which are obviously different, so, no, no contradiction.

One example: instant transmission is forced skill and works to anyone.

Since you have never seen Goku try to teleport someone much stronger than him against his will, you actually don't know if it would work. However, that has nothing to do with how the dragons work. Like you said, different ruling.

[GTX]

Eventhough it somehow to be true it could be just his own ruling where shenron or dragon races can create and modify their own special rulings regarding the wish most probably to prevent abuse.

Rules modifying is made at cell saga by shenron. kuririn cannot be ressurected again because the wishes are increased to 2. Shenron made the ruling, so someone who's been ressurected once before cannot be ressurected again but for this time he made an exception for krillin.

This is contradictory and big statement because magic works to anyone forcibly and it will not affect you just because you did not want it is impossible and contradictive and also they don't have any anti magic skill surrounding them 24 hours a day.

So i will not explain it anymore because it's common sense everywhere.

[rereboy]

Rules modifying is made at cell saga by shenron. kuririn cannot be ressurected again because the wishes are increased to 2. Shenron made the ruling, so someone who's been ressurected once before cannot be ressurected again but for this time he made an exception for krillin.

What are you talking about...? It's established in the beginning of the saiyan saga that Goku found out (presumably thanks to Kami) that the Dragon can't grant the same wish twice. That's why they can't resurrect someone who has been resurrected by the dragon before, because that wish had already been granted, and apparently you can't go around that simply by phrasing it differently. And Krillin was never resurrected twice by Shenlong, only by Porunga who could grant the same wish more than once.

So i will not explain it anymore because it's common sense everywhere.

What you claim to be common sense seems like gibberish to me.

[GTX]

Rules modifying is made at cell saga by shenron. kuririn cannot be ressurected again because the wishes are increased to 2. Shenron made the ruling, so someone who's been ressurected once before cannot be ressurected again but for this time he made an exception for krillin.

What are you talking about...? It's established in the beginning of the saiyan saga that Goku found out (presumably thanks to Kami) that the Dragon can't grant the same wish twice. That's why they can't resurrect someone who has been resurrected by the dragon before, because that wish had already been granted, and apparently you can't go around that simply by phrasing it differently. And Krillin was never resurrected twice by Shenlong, only by Porunga who could grant the same wish more than once.

It's said by shenron he made an exception int the manga. It has proven enough.

So i will not explain it anymore because it's common sense everywhere.

What you claim to be common sense seems like gibberish to me.

gibberish

magic is forceful effect is gibberish?
It has always been forcefull effect since the day one the effect of magic in db or everywhere.
You're denying common sense won't help because it's common sense everywhere and all event in db support that magic is forceful effect.

[rereboy]

It's said by shenron he made an exception int the manga. It has proven enough.

I have no idea what manga you have been reading but, in Dragon Ball, no dragon is shown to be able to grant the same wish twice claiming that he is only doing it because he is making an exception.

Gibberish. magic is forceful effect is gibberish?:shock:
It has always been forcefull effect since the day one the effect of magic in db or everywhere.

Your arguments and sentences are what looks like that. They don't seem to make sense and I have a hard time even comprehending what you are trying to say.

[GTX]

It's said by shenron he made an exception int the manga. It has proven enough.

I have no idea what manga you have been reading but, in Dragon Ball, no dragon is shown to be able to grant the same wish twice claiming that he is only doing it because he is making an exception.

Gibberish. magic is forceful effect is gibberish?:shock:
It has always been forcefull effect since the day one the effect of magic in db or everywhere.

Your arguments and sentences are what looks like that. They don't seem to make sense and I have a hard time even comprehending what you are trying to say.

Do you think i don't have any hard time reading your sentences?

Casting magic to someone is never have been need to have someone's permission to take effect anywhere.
It's forceful/ compelling effect that is forced to someone.
Their willingnes to receive it has never been an important factor that decide that it affect him or not.
That's why magic is an attack because magic has compelled/ forced effect.

It's common sense and doesn't need any explanation because this is what universally believe and you don't have any single proof to say otherwise or even backed your statement. You're just assuming something that is impossible to common sense.
Actually your post is just literally say that every magic attack will send a genie that ask you that you want to be affected by said magic or not. That's impossible, there's not any single proof has stated like that. Goku case is a special case that just because porunga ruling or he just being randomly friendly to goku,whatever. Even Piccolo is wrongly transported because the wrong wish that is said by dende because dende is misinterpreting krillin's. It's proved enough stronger isn't meant Piccolo can reject the effect of the mistaken wish let alone the 'common sense'. Actually there is no other proof porunga or shenron asked the target because everything state otherwise that's the reason it happened instantly and if not instantly it won't work or too late most of the cases.

[Darkprince410]

It's said by shenron he made an exception int the manga. It has proven enough.

Outside of GT, which had random made-up nonsense all the time, Shenlon has never made an exception in making a wish. At no point does he ever resurrect Kuririn a second time, for after his death in Dragon Ball by Tamborine, both times he's been killed, he was resurrected by Polunga. Besides, when Shenlon was called out following the Cell Games, he steadfastly establishes that he is unable to bring back Goku as he had been wished back once before, and no matter how they word the wish or how badly they want it, he cannot revive him a second time.

Their willingnes to receive it has never been an important factor that decide that it affect him or not.

Polunga tried wishing Goku to Earth among the wishes he was granting to revive Kuririn and everyone else following the events on Namek. However, he established full well that he couldn't grant the wish because Goku didn't want to return by means of a wish, and wanted to return on his own accord. Therefore, Polunga wasn't able to grant the wish because Goku was unwilling to accept it.

Goku case is a special case that just because porunga ruling or he just being randomly friendly to goku,whatever. Even Piccolo is wrongly transported because the wrong wish that is said by dende because dende is misinterpreting krillin's.

He wasn't wrongly transported. Kuririn and Dende simply weren't specific regarding where Polunga would bring him on Namek, and Piccolo wouldn't have known about where on Namek he'd be teleported to until he already arrived. All they asked was to bring him to Namek, which is what Piccolo wanted, and Polunga granted it. The two situations aren't remotely the same, so using it as evidence doesn't work. Now if Piccolo had expressed that he doesn't want to go to Namek, and then was brought there anyway, then yes, that'd be evidence. However, he did want to go, so Polunga granted exactly what they asked.