GT Piccolo's power in comparison to Cell, Frieza, and Rildo

[supercat]

I've seen a lot of discussions regarding GT Piccolo taking over and becoming some kind of guardian for hell. Though we don't get much about Piccolo in GT, I think it's an interesting concept and theory that actually seems to fit his character quite well.

By this point of the series, however, we know that the place is crawling with villains who are the very least Buu tier. While I've seen a lot of debate on how powerful Piccolo is in GT, I think he is at least worlds above any form of Buu, and most likely on par with SSJ Vegetto. If we assume Rildo in his final form is superior to Buuhan, then Piccolo at the very least has to be around SSJ Vegetto for him to be able to keep the villains in check. I also believe that HF17 should more or less be somewhere near or higher than some of the Buus as well, judging by how he did against Vegeta while not even fighting at full strength.

As for Frieza, since GT doesn't seem to follow up on the events of BoG and FnF, I don't think he has the same potential as a prodigy. He may or may not have improved, but I'm not that inclined to believe that he stayed behind simply because he was one of the top fighters. It seemed Gero and Mu had intended on keeping Goku trapped in hell permanently. Whether they believed Cell and Frieza would be able to take him down doesn't seem as relevant as the fact that they would keep him trapped forever. Therefore, since Goku would most likely not be a concern, they probably wanted to take Rildo in case there were other Z-Fighters who would hinder their plans of domination and merging the two 17s. Also, considering how badly Frieza wanted revenge on Goku, it wouldn't surprise me that he would stay behind to get another shot at him, given his advantage of not being able to die, as well as his trump card of freezing him if all else fails.

In regards to Cell, given the fact that he has Saiyan cells, I could see him upgrading his power by a decent amount. He does even mention something that hints at his power increase. A lot of fans have also speculated that Cell and Frieza seemed equal. While this could be true it could just be that it was portrayed that way due to both of them being so much weaker than Goku. If we look back on the Final Form Frieza versus Gohan, Piccolo, and Krillin, we can almost say that the three of them all looked equal in power since they were all miles below Frieza.

Cell and Frieza's power seems like it could be anywhere at this point. Even if we assume they did get stronger, I find it a bit hard to believe that they surpassed Rildo or any form of Buu, unless we factor in Frieza's prodigy potential.

Where do you all think Piccolo stands in comparison to the top tiered fighters down in hell -- Rildo, HF17, Cell, and Frieza?

Also, what are your thoughts on Cell and Frieza's improvements?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Piccolo > Hell Fighter #17 > Cell > Freeza > Rild > Gohan-Buu

Is how I see it.

Rild is stated to be above Buu, so no debate there.

Cell and Freeza stay behind to take on the main threat while Rild is lumped with the trash sent to Earth just to terrorize Earthlings. You could counter with the whole Cell and Freeza wanted revenge on Goku thing, but neither of them were actually killed by Goku, while Rild was. Cell and Freeza were also confident, so if they knew Rild got beat, that could also put them above Rild (I'm not saying they did, just if they did.)

Hell Fighter #17 ~ Base Vegeta is stated, and if I recall correctly, Hell Fighter #17 would still be in Hell, as the two #17s split at death according to the PF. So if you think Vegeta kept his Baby power up, and you have Base Vegeta >/~ SBV2, or SS2 Vegeta >/~ SBV2 (which isn't much of a stretch as it's clear Toei favored Vegeta over Uub during the Super #17 fight), that could put Piccolo above Super Vegetto, but I don't think Piccolo being above Super Vegetto is a necessity.

Another thing regarding Piccolo's power; he survived a Kamehame-ha from SS Gohan-Baby, who according to the PF would be even stronger than his Ultimate counter part. That's enough for me to place Piccolo not drastically behind Gohan's SS form (Baby saga), and at least close to his Ultimate form.

That's just how I see all of it anyway.

[Marco Polo]

He should hunt down King Piccolo and fuse with him.

[supercat]

Piccolo > Hell Fighter #17 > Cell > Freeza > Rild > Gohan-Buu

Is how I see it.

Rild is stated to be above Buu, so no debate there.

Cell and Freeza stay behind to take on the main threat while Rild is lumped with the trash sent to Earth just to terrorize Earthlings. You could counter with the whole Cell and Freeza wanted revenge on Goku thing, but neither of them were actually killed by Goku, while Rild was. Cell and Freeza were also confident, so if they knew Rild got beat, that could also put them above Rild (I'm not saying they did, just if they did.)

Hell Fighter #17 ~ Base Vegeta is stated, and if I recall correctly, Hell Fighter #17 would still be in Hell, as the two #17s split at death according to the PF. So if you think Vegeta kept his Baby power up, and you have Base Vegeta >/~ SBV2, or SS2 Vegeta >/~ SBV2 (which isn't much of a stretch as it's clear Toei favored Vegeta over Uub during the Super #17 fight), that could put Piccolo above Super Vegetto, but I don't think Piccolo being above Super Vegetto is a necessity.

Another thing regarding Piccolo's power; he survived a Kamehame-ha from SS Gohan-Baby, who according to the PF would be even stronger than his Ultimate counter part. That's enough for me to place Piccolo not drastically behind Gohan's SS form (Baby saga), and at least close to his Ultimate form.

That's just how I see all of it anyway.

Yes, I definitely agree with Piccolo > HF #17 and Base Vegeta = HF #17, but I still think Frieza and Cell being above Rildo can go either way. I feel like Mu and Gero had planned to trap Goku down in hell permanently. With the assumption that Goku would not be able to challenge them anymore, they might have felt it was appropriate to have a powerhouse like Rildo go to Earth in case the weaker villains (Nappa, Yakon, Pui Pui) failed against Earth's other top tiered Z-Fighters (Vegeta and Gohan).

I can see Cell staying due to having the right power to challenge Goku, but Frieza's grudge against Goku is deep. We all know how much he dislikes the Saiyan, and how he would love to have another chance at taking him down. Between him teaming up with Cell, his inability to die, and his backup plan of using the ice machine, I can see why he would gloat. Since the events of FnF are most likely not included in the GT timeline, Frieza is probably not some amazing prodigy with massive amounts of potential. Therefore, the way I see it, I don't think he improved much if at all, and his reason for staying was probably different from Cell's.

Cell may have very well improved, and in fact it is indicated by what he says to Goku right before the fight starts that he has gotten stronger. To what extent he's gained power is hard to determine, but I could see him wielding a battle power that sits somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3. The same dialogue didn't really imply anything about Frieza improving (unless I missed something). Again, we can't assume Cell's power is equal to Frieza's just because it seemed equal. When two or more fighters are far below their opponent, it's been shown in the past that they can appear to seem equal (Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin vs Final Form Frieza).

Piccolo surviving Gohan's attack is a major feat, especially given how far GT Gohan has progressed in power. I could see both of these guys above SSJ Vegetto.

With HF #17 being the second best fighter down in hell after Piccolo, it would have been great to see these guys go at it, mirroring Piccolo's fight with 17 in the Android Arc. With that said, I don't think it would be that close this time, I'd say Piccolo at his max shouldn't have a tough time easily trashing HF #17. As for the other villains, I'd say they're all one-shot material for Piccolo at this point.

The way I see it is:

Piccolo > HF #17 = Base Vegeta > Rildo > Buuhan > Kid Buu > Cell > Frieza

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Yes, I definitely agree with Piccolo > HF #17 and Base Vegeta = HF #17, but I still think Freeza and Cell being above Rildo can go either way. I feel like Mu and Gero had planned to trap Goku down in hell permanently. With the assumption that Goku would not be able to challenge them anymore, they might have felt it was appropriate to have a powerhouse like Rildo go to Earth in case the weaker villains (Nappa, Yakon, Pui Pui) failed against Earth's other top tiered Z-Fighters (Vegeta and Gohan).

Well, Cell/Freeza > Rild isn't a necessity, that's just how I see it.

One thing worth mentioning is that Gero said that Android #17 was supposed to be above even Cell but that his dormant power wasn't unlocked. So, you could have Android #17 (dormant power unlocked) > GT Cell, thus having strong people on Earth for other threats (there's also HF17), and leaving Cell and Freeza to fight Goku. They needed #17 on Earth also to make Super #17, so he can be excluded from "the strongest" people to fight Goku.

Also, if GT follows the Z filler (besides powerscaling - since it doesn't), Cell and Freeza saw SS3 Goku vs. Pure Buu, so they could at least be above that level.

I can see Cell staying due to having the right power to challenge Goku, but Freeza's grudge against Goku is deep. We all know how much he dislikes the Saiyan, and how he would love to have another chance at taking him down. Between him teaming up with Cell, his inability to die, and his backup plan of using the ice machine, I can see why he would gloat. Since the events of FnF are most likely not included in the GT timeline, Freeza is probably not some amazing prodigy with massive amounts of potential. Therefore, the way I see it, I don't think he improved much if at all, and his reason for staying was probably different from Cell's.

I'm fine if you see it that way, I was just sharing my viewpoint.

Cell may have very well improved, and in fact it is indicated by what he says to Goku right before the fight starts that he has gotten stronger. To what extent he's gained power is hard to determine, but I could see him wielding a battle power that sits somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3. The same dialogue didn't really imply anything about Freeza improving (unless I missed something). Again, we can't assume Cell's power is equal to Freeza's just because it seemed equal. When two or more fighters are far below their opponent, it's been shown in the past that they can appear to seem equal (Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin vs Final Form Freeza).

I think Cell is still above Freeza, just not as big a gap as before. I also do think Freeza powered up, it'd seem kinda weird if only Cell powered up. (To me at least.)

Piccolo surviving Gohan's attack is a major feat, especially given how far GT Gohan has progressed in power. I could see both of these guys above SSJ Vegetto.

Gohan never reached Super Vegetto IMO. It's shown via feats and statements that;

Super Vegeta-Baby 1 > Super Vegetto > Base Vegeta-Baby > SS3 Goku > Base Goku (Baby saga) ~ SS Gohan (Baby saga) >~ Rild > Gohan-Buu > Ultimate Gohan

GT implies a large gap between Vegetto and Gohan-Buu, and has tiny multipliers compared to Z. Base Gohan in the #17 arc is still Rild tier, so unless he got a massive zenkai into the Evil Dragons, or has a humongo SS2 multiplier, I don't see him reaching Super Vegetto. Piccolo would be more likely, but not a necessity.

With HF #17 being the second best fighter down in hell after Piccolo, it would have been great to see these guys go at it, mirroring Piccolo's fight with 17 in the Android Arc. With that said, I don't think it would be that close this time, I'd say Piccolo at his max shouldn't have a tough time easily trashing HF #17. As for the other villains, I'd say they're all one-shot material for Piccolo at this point.

I agree.

[Hellspawn28]

He should hunt down King Piccolo and fuse with him.

How that would work if Piccolo is his reincarnation? It would be having Kid Buu in Hell when his soul was reincarnated after death.

[supercat]

Yes, I definitely agree with Piccolo > HF #17 and Base Vegeta = HF #17, but I still think Freeza and Cell being above Rildo can go either way. I feel like Mu and Gero had planned to trap Goku down in hell permanently. With the assumption that Goku would not be able to challenge them anymore, they might have felt it was appropriate to have a powerhouse like Rildo go to Earth in case the weaker villains (Nappa, Yakon, Pui Pui) failed against Earth's other top tiered Z-Fighters (Vegeta and Gohan).

Well, Cell/Freeza > Rild isn't a necessity, that's just how I see it.

One thing worth mentioning is that Gero said that Android #17 was supposed to be above even Cell but that his dormant power wasn't unlocked. So, you could have Android #17 (dormant power unlocked) > GT Cell, thus having strong people on Earth for other threats (there's also HF17), and leaving Cell and Freeza to fight Goku. They needed #17 on Earth also to make Super #17, so he can be excluded from "the strongest" people to fight Goku.

Also, if GT follows the Z filler (besides powerscaling - since it doesn't), Cell and Freeza saw SS3 Goku vs. Pure Buu, so they could at least be above that level.

I can see Cell staying due to having the right power to challenge Goku, but Freeza's grudge against Goku is deep. We all know how much he dislikes the Saiyan, and how he would love to have another chance at taking him down. Between him teaming up with Cell, his inability to die, and his backup plan of using the ice machine, I can see why he would gloat. Since the events of FnF are most likely not included in the GT timeline, Freeza is probably not some amazing prodigy with massive amounts of potential. Therefore, the way I see it, I don't think he improved much if at all, and his reason for staying was probably different from Cell's.

I'm fine if you see it that way, I was just sharing my viewpoint.

Cell may have very well improved, and in fact it is indicated by what he says to Goku right before the fight starts that he has gotten stronger. To what extent he's gained power is hard to determine, but I could see him wielding a battle power that sits somewhere between SSJ2 and SSJ3. The same dialogue didn't really imply anything about Freeza improving (unless I missed something). Again, we can't assume Cell's power is equal to Freeza's just because it seemed equal. When two or more fighters are far below their opponent, it's been shown in the past that they can appear to seem equal (Piccolo, Gohan, and Krillin vs Final Form Freeza).

I think Cell is still above Freeza, just not as big a gap as before. I also do think Freeza powered up, it'd seem kinda weird if only Cell powered up. (To me at least.)

Piccolo surviving Gohan's attack is a major feat, especially given how far GT Gohan has progressed in power. I could see both of these guys above SSJ Vegetto.

Gohan never reached Super Vegetto IMO. It's shown via feats and statements that;

Super Vegeta-Baby 1 > Super Vegetto > Base Vegeta-Baby > SS3 Goku > Base Goku (Baby saga) ~ SS Gohan (Baby saga) >~ Rild > Gohan-Buu > Ultimate Gohan

GT implies a large gap between Vegetto and Gohan-Buu, and has tiny multipliers compared to Z. Base Gohan in the #17 arc is still Rild tier, so unless he got a massive zenkai into the Evil Dragons, or has a humongo SS2 multiplier, I don't see him reaching Super Vegetto. Piccolo would be more likely, but not a necessity.

With HF #17 being the second best fighter down in hell after Piccolo, it would have been great to see these guys go at it, mirroring Piccolo's fight with 17 in the Android Arc. With that said, I don't think it would be that close this time, I'd say Piccolo at his max shouldn't have a tough time easily trashing HF #17. As for the other villains, I'd say they're all one-shot material for Piccolo at this point.

I agree.

Well Base Gohan is definitely under both Piccolo and SSJ Vegetto in my opinion. I would say Piccolo is more or less equal to SSJ Gohan, and possibly even above this if he goes all out. However, he is probably a bit weaker than SSJ2 Gohan. If Gohan had powered up to SSJ, I don't think he would have had any trouble with Rildo.

As for Frieza and Cell watching the fight between SSJ3 Goku and Frieza, if they were spectators of this particular fight, then there's really no really reason why they wouldn't observe Goku's subsequent fights. Meaning, if we follow this trend, they would have possibly even seen his SSJ4 transformation and his fight with Baby. Therefore, if their confidence was a result of them feeling they can out power Goku, they would have also believed they can stand up to an SSJ4 -- which we know is unlikely given the fact that Frieza does not possess his FnF potential as a prodigy.

Although it seems more practical to assume both Cell and Frieza obtained power increases, Cell powering up exclusively can be considered as a possibility, because it doesn't seem out of the ordinary for Cell to seek out greater power via training. Again, I don't mind Frieza obtaining levels that are on par with GT Cell or even Buu, but there was nothing that really deeply indicated this. If we go with what Cell said to Goku right before the fight, it's something along the lines of him telling Goku that he's not the only one who has gotten stronger. This is after Frieza powers up. If in fact, Frieza has improved so significantly, I don't think Cell would have made such a remark, as he would have assumed Goku would have sensed Frieza's enhanced power. As mentioned before, I feel Frieza's confidence could have been a result of him knowing Cell was on his side, his inability to die, and ultimately the opportunity to utilize the ice machine if things really got ugly.

It looks like a good amount of fans can acknowledge Piccolo > Villains in hell, but seem to have slight variations in perspective on who has the highest battle power out of the villains down there. Like you said Cell and Frieza being above Rildo isn't a necessity, but given the little information and implications we have, I suppose it's still all up for debate. I 'have my reasons for believing why they're still below Rildo / Buu, but I still respect what other people have to say. I wonder how easily Majuub would take the place over..

[Marco Polo]

He should hunt down King Piccolo and fuse with him.

How that would work if Piccolo is his reincarnation? It would be having Kid Buu in Hell when his soul was reincarnated after death.

He is more of a clone than the literal reincarnation. They were both alive at the same time for a short period (unlike Kid Buu and Uub).

Plus, this is GT.

[Pantalones]

If we assume Rildo in his final form is superior to Buuhan, then Piccolo at the very least has to be around SSJ Vegetto for him to be able to keep the villains in check.

Ehhh... I don't think so. The gap between Buu and Vegerot was absurdly huge -- maybe somewhat less so in the anime vs. the manga, considering the whole "Buu went nuts and almost collapsed dimensions in on each other" thing which Vegerot had to actually get serious and try for a moment to overcome, but that always seemed like a "rage boost" sort of situation for Buu (Super Buu's equivalent of Fat Buu losing all control over himself with rage and powering up enormously before spitting out his evil half, I suppose?), so Vegerot would still be way beyond Buu's normal maximum. Plus, the anime was a bit inconsistent there -- first Buu's almost weak enough that base Vegerot can fight him pretty effectively, and then he gets mad and suddenly even Super Saiyan Vegerot has a slight bit of difficulty for once? Yeah, following the manga version makes a bit more sense if at all possible (...and GT seems to conveniently ignore the whole "someone as powerful as raging, Gohan-absorbed Super Buu can collapse dimensions" thing when it comes to villains above that level, so it does seem that it's following off of the manga at least in that case. While following from the anime in others. And even including the movies in others. Yeah, GT is a mess.)

If GT Piccolo is intended to be stronger than any form of Buu, there's still a pretty wide range of power between the strongest Buu and Super Saiyan Vegerot that he can fit into while still being more than enough for villains that are only a bit ahead of the strongest Buu forms at best.

[supercat]

If we assume Rildo in his final form is superior to Buuhan, then Piccolo at the very least has to be around SSJ Vegetto for him to be able to keep the villains in check.

Ehhh... I don't think so. The gap between Buu and Vegerot was absurdly huge -- maybe somewhat less so in the anime vs. the manga, considering the whole "Buu went nuts and almost collapsed dimensions in on each other" thing which Vegerot had to actually get serious and try for a moment to overcome, but that always seemed like a "rage boost" sort of situation for Buu (Super Buu's equivalent of Fat Buu losing all control over himself with rage and powering up enormously before spitting out his evil half, I suppose?), so Vegerot would still be way beyond Buu's normal maximum. Plus, the anime was a bit inconsistent there -- first Buu's almost weak enough that base Vegerot can fight him pretty effectively, and then he gets mad and suddenly even Super Saiyan Vegerot has a slight bit of difficulty for once? Yeah, following the manga version makes a bit more sense if at all possible (...and GT seems to conveniently ignore the whole "someone as powerful as raging, Gohan-absorbed Super Buu can collapse dimensions" thing when it comes to villains above that level, so it does seem that it's following off of the manga at least in that case. While following from the anime in others. And even including the movies in others. Yeah, GT is a mess.)

If GT Piccolo is intended to be stronger than any form of Buu, there's still a pretty wide range of power between the strongest Buu and Super Saiyan Vegerot that he can fit into while still being more than enough for villains that are only a bit ahead of the strongest Buu forms at best.

How far above Buu and/or where exactly Piccolo stands in comparison to SSJ Vegetto depends heavily on how much power Rildo has over Buu. If Goku was talking about Base Rildo being above Kid Buu or Mr. Buu, then his final form should still be at the very least at the same level as Buuhan. With that being the case, I could see GT Piccolo somewhere right in the middle of Buuhan and SSJ Vegetto. If, however, Goku meant to say that Base Rildo is already above Buuhan, then it seems pretty reasonable to place Piccolo above SSJ Vegetto. Personally, I think either scenario can work, although I feel having Base Rildo above Buuhan is bit of a stretch. I've always assumed Goku was comparing Base Rildo to Kid Buu or even Mr. Buu. Therefore, I've seen Final Form Rildo a decent amount higher than Buuhan -- placing Piccolo more or less around SSJ Vegetto to effectively be able to keep Rildo in check.

We should also factor in HF #17 who is more or less implied to be the second strongest fighter down in hell next to Piccolo. Considering how well he did against Base Vegeta despite not even using full power, tells me this guy is at the very least marginally above Final Form Rildo.

Whether GT Piccolo is above SSJ Vegetto or not, at this point it seems pretty reasonable to assume that he would mop the floor with any form of Buu without much effort at all.

How cool would the following scenarios be?

-GT Piccolo travelling back in time and one-shotting Super Buu during the time he was taunting everyone on the lookout.
-GT Piccolo showing up when Goku is frantically looking for partner to fuse with and then trashing Buuhan.
-GT Piccolo showing up when Goku is desperately trying to gather energy for the Spirit Bomb, telling him how that won't be necessary, and then proceeding to annihilate Kid Buu effortlessly.