Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

17 being on SSB range of power as the anime and manga suggest creates another small issue, with him being too close to Gammas, despite they being advertised as the strongest androids so far and comparable to SSB. I think a good compromise is scaling him down to sub-SSG or Majin Boo level.

Freeza in another hand is implied to be stronger than a single SSB, but manageable by two SSB. With Broly on his side his confidence was assured.

Frieza never showed confidence that he could defeat Goku in Broly and his statement about Goku and Vegeta together was after he saw Gogeta. Remember, before then the only time he has seen Goku and Vegeta work together was against Jiren and this was after he beat both of them up individually. The last time they could have worked together to beat him in Resurrection 'F', they didn't.

[Skar]

Thing is we only have Toyo who said this and we don't have the context to how they stall Fusion Zamaus. This is what happens when you only have an outline, not even a final draft, and it relied to you through hearsay. For the most part, when fusion happens that is more than just a small increase in power and we have seen this with Gotenks, Vegito, and Gogeta. Like using Gotenks, the power difference between Goten and Trunks to Super Buu is vastly bigger than the power different between Goku and Vegeta and Zamasu and Black.

It's not hearsay since it's coming from the people who wrote it. It's different than in Broly with the outline leaving them no choice but to fuse against him since fighting together wouldn't have been enough. We also had two fusions in the Buu saga involving a Kaioshin and someone much weaker and didn't give a huge increase. Shin fusing with Kibito definitely didn't result in a fusion maybe hundreds of times stronger like with Gogeta and Vegetto.

They're in power range during the TOP. Broly is after the TOP where Goku and Vegeta clearly got stronger. That and he only reference Goku and Vegeta together after he saw Gogeta. Vegeta was so beneath Frieza that barely acknowledged his existence.

Where in Broly did it imply Goku and Vegeta were vastly stronger than Freeza? Freeza didn't acknowledge Vegeta in RoF because he thought Vegeta was weaker than him and didn't know he could transform. I'm pretty sure Freeza said he wanted revenge against Goku and Vegeta in Broly and it's how Paragus learned about Vegeta in the first place.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So something got me thinking.

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1? It's confirmed in the movie that he hasn't trained but hasn't grown weaker after the ToP.

If Goku and Vegeta grew multiple times stronger during the ToP like some people have said then Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by Gamma 1 in the movie.

I was thinking about this too. But Vegeta’s speech about how the Saiyans broke their limits throughout the tournament shows glimpses of all Saiyans in the tournament, Gohan included. Not sure what exactly Gohan did in the tournament to push himself since he only fought sub SSJB folks though.

Gohan also tapped into his Ultimate form via anger, so there might have been some extra power when he fought them.

I never thought they got stronger in the ToP. I'm not sure where the idea they could get several times stronger midbattle comes from. In the original manga, it was only after a Zenkai, rage boost, or unlocking a new transformations which were made clear when they happened. Other than that they trained between fights.

Toriyama in the 6/10/15 interview, though that ability doesn’t actually show up in the series until Goku Black, and then the other Saiyans getting rage boosts fighting him. In the ToP Goku, Caulifla and Kefla’s powers are all noted to rise greatly as they fight, but any other power ups in other fights are only hinted at via feats. The manga seems to miss them altogether, with Vegeta needing UE to get stronger.

I think the new movie actually supports that. Jiren looks infinitely superior to Goku in their first fight, but as he and Vegeta tap into more of their power they manage to put up some fight against him. If Vegeta says they weren’t far from Jiren, then those fights aren’t just pointless filler after all.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan also tapped into his Ultimate form via anger, so there might have been some extra power when he fought them.

I thought this too but it was never implied he was rage boosted. Piccolo even talks like it's the same Ultimate form as before.

[Skar]

Toriyama in the 6/10/15 interview, though that ability doesn’t actually show up in the series until Goku Black, and then the other Saiyans getting rage boosts fighting him. In the ToP Goku, Caulifla and Kefla’s powers are all noted to rise greatly as they fight, but any other power ups in other fights are only hinted at via feats. The manga seems to miss them altogether, with Vegeta needing UE to get stronger.

Ah ok I thought it was just a modern anime being applied to DB because I didn't remember that happening in the original manga. I guess Toriyama they could do it now but I don't think it happened in the recent films. Vegeta had a rage boost against Beerus then other powerups were either new transformations like God or in Super Hero or fusion in Broly.

[HeroR]

Thing is we only have Toyo who said this and we don't have the context to how they stall Fusion Zamaus. This is what happens when you only have an outline, not even a final draft, and it relied to you through hearsay. For the most part, when fusion happens that is more than just a small increase in power and we have seen this with Gotenks, Vegito, and Gogeta. Like using Gotenks, the power difference between Goten and Trunks to Super Buu is vastly bigger than the power different between Goku and Vegeta and Zamasu and Black.

It's not hearsay since it's coming from the people who wrote it. It's different than in Broly with the outline leaving them no choice but to fuse against him since fighting together wouldn't have been enough. We also had two fusions in the Buu saga involving a Kaioshin and someone much weaker and didn't give a huge increase. Shin fusing with Kibito definitely didn't result in a fusion maybe hundreds of times stronger like with Gogeta and Vegetto.

They're in power range during the TOP. Broly is after the TOP where Goku and Vegeta clearly got stronger. That and he only reference Goku and Vegeta together after he saw Gogeta. Vegeta was so beneath Frieza that barely acknowledged his existence.

Where in Broly did it imply Goku and Vegeta were vastly stronger than Freeza? Freeza didn't acknowledge Vegeta in RoF because he thought Vegeta was weaker than him and didn't know he could transform. I'm pretty sure Freeza said he wanted revenge against Goku and Vegeta in Broly and it's how Paragus learned about Vegeta in the first place.

Except Toyo didn't write it, Toriyama did.

We don't know how strong Kibito-Shin was because he didn't fight. We only know that he was weaker than Gotenks Buu.

I didn't say vastly stronger than Frieza. Also, Frieza only wanted revenge against Goku. He didn't care what happened to Vegeta and told Paragus that he could kill Vegeta, but he couldn't kill Goku.

[Skar]

Except Toyo didn't write it, Toriyama did.

We don't know how strong Kibito-Shin was because he didn't fight. We only know that he was weaker than Gotenks Buu.

Toyo was explaining it with Toriyama present in the same interview. Toyotaro flatout said Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the outline and that he had to make a scenario to give them no choice but to fuse. I don't know how to interpret that other than him making the fusion stronger in order to include Vegetto. The only time they fused before that was against Buuhan because working together wouldn't have been enough. That would likely mean Toriyama intended for the gap between them and Merged Zamasu than it was between them and Buuhan.

I didn't say vastly stronger than Frieza. Also, Frieza only wanted revenge against Goku. He didn't care what happened to Vegeta and told Paragus that he could kill Vegeta, but he couldn't kill Goku.

My original point was that Freeza is around the strength of one regular Blue which is their highest form aside UI by Toriyama. In the manga or anime, Freeza is close to a regular Blue would still be weaker than all the upgrades to Blue which would mean the gap between him and Goku and Vegeta at full power is higher. It makes sense in Broly to think he could get revenge against Goku on his own because at most he's only slightly weaker than Blue Goku. In other continuities, he might be 20x weaker than Goku's strongest version of Blue.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Is it possible to scale Supers characters through Ultimate Gohan?

This is just for the manga but is there anything to say that Ultimate Gohan during the Tournament of Power was any stronger than the Buu Saga?

If so couldn't you say Super Saiyan Blue Goku was like Gotenks Buu level? So far inferior to Super Vegito. Then that would fit with Super Saiyan Gogeta being far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie?

Just as of the Tournament of Power and again in the manga.

Super Vegito > Gohan Buu > Vegito > Gotenks Buu ~ Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Kid Buu

Wouldn't that stop the power levels from escalating so radically?

[Thani]

Is it possible to scale Supers characters through Ultimate Gohan?

This is just for the manga but is there anything to say that Ultimate Gohan during the Tournament of Power was any stronger than the Buu Saga?

If so couldn't you say Super Saiyan Blue Goku was like Gotenks Buu level? So far inferior to Super Vegito. Then that would fit with Super Saiyan Gogeta being far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie?

Just as of the Tournament of Power and again in the manga.

Super Vegito > Gohan Buu > Vegito > Gotenks Buu ~ Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Kid Buu

Wouldn't that stop the power levels from escalating so radically?

But how would that explain BoG? Fusion was considered a non-option against Beerus, after all.

[ZombieVito]

This is just for the manga but is there anything to say that Ultimate Gohan during the Tournament of Power was any stronger than the Buu Saga?

[Issei189]

So something got me thinking.

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1? It's confirmed in the movie that he hasn't trained but hasn't grown weaker after the ToP.

If Goku and Vegeta grew multiple times stronger during the ToP like some people have said then Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by Gamma 1 in the movie.

I was thinking about this too. But Vegeta’s speech about how the Saiyans broke their limits throughout the tournament shows glimpses of all Saiyans in the tournament, Gohan included. Not sure what exactly Gohan did in the tournament to push himself since he only fought sub SSJB folks though.

Gohan also tapped into his Ultimate form via anger, so there might have been some extra power when he fought them.

I guess Gohan's Kamehameha against that robot Koicearet was beyond his limits since that was the scene they included in those Glimpses. Earlier in the same ep, Koicearet pushed back SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta's regular Kamehameha and Galick Gun before Gohan's final attack against him.

[Goku9001]

Is it possible to scale Supers characters through Ultimate Gohan?

This is just for the manga but is there anything to say that Ultimate Gohan during the Tournament of Power was any stronger than the Buu Saga?

If so couldn't you say Super Saiyan Blue Goku was like Gotenks Buu level? So far inferior to Super Vegito. Then that would fit with Super Saiyan Gogeta being far above Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Broly movie?

Just as of the Tournament of Power and again in the manga.

Super Vegito > Gohan Buu > Vegito > Gotenks Buu ~ Super Saiyan Blue Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Android 17 > Super Buu > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Kid Buu

Wouldn't that stop the power levels from escalating so radically?

No it wouldn't. The entire point of God was to introduce us to an entire echelon of power never before seen. To introduce us to the very concept of what it means to be a God. Super Saiyan God Goku during the Battle of Gods yielded enough power to threaten the entire universe when clashing with Beerus.

If we look a little deeper, it's clear that Ultimate Gohan during the Tournament of Power is far stronger. Gohan retained his Ultimate form during Battle of Gods yet he is easily ragdolled by Beerus who is playing around. Super Saiyan God forces Beerus to use more power to combat him and Super Saiyan Blue let alone Perfected Blue is far greater than that. That's around the level Ultimate Gohan (ToP) is at.

This power chain seems like a needless way to arbitrarily reduce the power chain which is unfounded. That goes against the very concept of Super Saiyan God.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Super Saiyan God may have seemed to be on some universe shaking next level where Fusion didn't begin to compare at the time when Battle of Gods came out....

But things have changed since then haven't they? The manga and the Broly movie showed that Super Saiyan Blue isn't even at Base Fusions level.

Android 17 is comparable even though as he said all he did was protect the island. He's meant to be well beyond Buuhan and Super Vegito?

Ultimate Gohan was said to be stronger than ever but that only happened during the Tournament of Power. He'd mostly stopped training. Trained for a day with Piccolo to regain his senses and then from 30 minutes of fighting he's suddenly levels upon levels above?

Why can't Ultimate Gohan be around Buutenks and Super Saiyan Blue around Buuhan or something?

[HeroR]

Except Toyo didn't write it, Toriyama did.

We don't know how strong Kibito-Shin was because he didn't fight. We only know that he was weaker than Gotenks Buu.

Toyo was explaining it with Toriyama present in the same interview. Toyotaro flatout said Merged Zamasu wasn't all that strong in the outline and that he had to make a scenario to give them no choice but to fuse. I don't know how to interpret that other than him making the fusion stronger in order to include Vegetto. The only time they fused before that was against Buuhan because working together wouldn't have been enough. That would likely mean Toriyama intended for the gap between them and Merged Zamasu than it was between them and Buuhan.

I didn't say vastly stronger than Frieza. Also, Frieza only wanted revenge against Goku. He didn't care what happened to Vegeta and told Paragus that he could kill Vegeta, but he couldn't kill Goku.

My original point was that Freeza is around the strength of one regular Blue which is their highest form aside UI by Toriyama. In the manga or anime, Freeza is close to a regular Blue would still be weaker than all the upgrades to Blue which would mean the gap between him and Goku and Vegeta at full power is higher. It makes sense in Broly to think he could get revenge against Goku on his own because at most he's only slightly weaker than Blue Goku. In other continuities, he might be 20x weaker than Goku's strongest version of Blue.

During the tournament, I’m talking about Broly were Frieza never tried to go against Goku directly and sent his men to get the Dragon Balls so they wouldn’t sense him. He only tried to get revenge after he got Broly.


Except Black was still in the power class as Goku and Vegeta, while they were nowhere near Gohan Buu with Vegeta being basically being Future Zamasu. And it was still Toyo who said this, not Toriyama.

[Skar]

Why can't Ultimate Gohan be around Buutenks and Super Saiyan Blue around Buuhan or something?

I would prefer that to keep things from getting too inflated. Like Thani explained, Goku thought fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus implying SSJG is above their fusion's highest form at the time.

During the tournament, I’m talking about Broly were Frieza never tried to go against Goku directly and sent his men to get the Dragon Balls so they wouldn’t sense him. He only tried to get revenge after he got Broly.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Is Freeza vastly weaker than him or enough to put up a fight on his own? You were implying both. I think this is still missing point. In the hypothetical manga or anime version, Freeza might be close to Goku in regular Blue but still tens of times weaker than Goku's highest version of Blue. If Blue is Goku is 2x Freeza in Broly, he might 10-20x stronger in the other continuities.

Except Black was still in the power class as Goku and Vegeta, while they were nowhere near Gohan Buu with Vegeta being basically being Future Zamasu. And it was still Toyo who said this, not Toriyama.

Was Toyotaro lying about what Toriyama intended? He has access to the draft with Toriyama present. Compare the other times Toriyama wrote for them to fuse. Buuhan was who they fused against but I remembered thar Goku didn't think him and Vegeta fighting together was enough for Super Buu. The gap between them and Merged Zamasu should be even less than it was against Super Buu. The only other time he wrote for them to fuse with in Broly and it was very clear fighting together wouldn't have been enough.

[Xeno Goku Black]

I would prefer that to keep things from getting too inflated. Like Thani explained, Goku thought fusion wouldn't be enough against Beerus implying SSJG is above their fusion's highest form at the time.

Yeah well of course. At the time we thought it meant that Super Saiyan God Goku must therefore be above a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito.

But for one that was never said in the manga. It did however very much imply that Base Vegito was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Plus it would mean that Android 17 would have to be drastically before Super Saiyan 3 Vegito himself.

[Skar]

But for one that was never said in the manga. It did however very much imply that Base Vegito was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue. Plus it would mean that Android 17 would have to be drastically before Super Saiyan 3 Vegito himself.

Hmm I guess it could work if that line wasn't in the manga. It's hard to tell based on the base fusions though since they have to do with the power of the fusees at the time. Base Gogeta after Goku and Vegeta have Blue should be stronger than Base Gogeta during the Buu saga.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah I double checked definitely wasn't said in the manga.

On top of which. Goku and Vegeta's strength from Base to Super Saiyan 3 doesn't seem like it should be too far different from what it was in the Buu Saga unlike the movie and anime.

Super Saiyan Goku Black being somewhat over 50x as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A couple zenkai boosts after that was enough to push him past Super Saiyan Blue. So it's not like Super Saiyan Blue is thousands of times stronger or anything like Vegito likely was.

[Thani]

For what it's worth, DB Legends had an event that put Super Vegito (from the Buu Saga) against both SSB Goku and Vegeta. And he was shown with a sizeable advantage.

Likewise, the same game made Nuova Shenron (from GT) a match for SSG Shallot, who should be weaker than SSB Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ah ok I thought it was just a modern anime being applied to DB because I didn't remember that happening in the original manga. I guess Toriyama they could do it now but I don't think it happened in the recent films. Vegeta had a rage boost against Beerus then other powerups were either new transformations like God or in Super Hero or fusion in Broly.

It really doesn't happen in the original series, closest thing I've ever seen to that is Nappa fighting Goku by cooling down and people who think SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan. Toriyama sort of talks about it in the context of why SSJG Goku could catch up to Beerus, so I think that's something he made up back when he was doing BoGs to justify SSJG Goku's growing power (Though the anime suggests it's just Goku getting used to the form) and SSJ2 Vegeta's rage boost. Anyway, here's the interview:

I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

I'd say Broly himself applies to this too. Granted he's different from the other Saiyans, but it's not like Goku or Vegeta could ever reach SSJB level in base with a couple fights in a day. Otherwise it's hard to tell if this ever happens in his unseen story, though Goku and Vegeta threatening Merged Zamasu in his drafts when Black himself should be a threat to them might say something.

You know, I sort of like to think these power ups are a power they already had, but couldn't/didn't know how to use it until their bodies had adapted to it, and a tough fight might be the trigger. Makes more sense than them pulling power out of thin air.

Yeah I double checked definitely wasn't said in the manga.

On top of which. Goku and Vegeta's strength from Base to Super Saiyan 3 doesn't seem like it should be too far different from what it was in the Buu Saga unlike the movie and anime.

Super Saiyan Goku Black being somewhat over 50x as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku. A couple zenkai boosts after that was enough to push him past Super Saiyan Blue. So it's not like Super Saiyan Blue is thousands of times stronger or anything like Vegito likely was.

Probably because those rushed chapters were just a quick recap, though I can see Manga SSJG not being so strong initially.

I think Goku Black might actually be bringing more power creep rather than reduce it. The guy was SSJ3 level in base, and since Goku and Vegeta surpassed him it means they're far above SSJ3 level in base too.

So something got me thinking.

The Gammas are compared to Goku and Vegeta right? And we all deduced it's with them using Super Saiyan Blue right? Wouldn't this confirm Goku and Vegeta didn't get stronger in their regular forms during the ToP since Gohan is able to fight Gamma 1? It's confirmed in the movie that he hasn't trained but hasn't grown weaker after the ToP.

If Goku and Vegeta grew multiple times stronger during the ToP like some people have said then Ultimate Gohan would have been one shotted by Gamma 1 in the movie.

I was thinking about this too. But Vegeta’s speech about how the Saiyans broke their limits throughout the tournament shows glimpses of all Saiyans in the tournament, Gohan included. Not sure what exactly Gohan did in the tournament to push himself since he only fought sub SSJB folks though.

Gohan also tapped into his Ultimate form via anger, so there might have been some extra power when he fought them.

I guess Gohan's Kamehameha against that robot Koicearet was beyond his limits since that was the scene they included in those Glimpses. Earlier in the same ep, Koicearet pushed back SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta's regular Kamehameha and Galick Gun before Gohan's final attack against him.

Good catch, I'd totally forgotten about Gohan's fight with the robots. I doubt a super charged blast means Gohan himself is stronger, but at least it explains how he broke his limits.