How powerful are Piccolo and Shisami?

[Berserker1921]

I wonder after seeing the movie revival of f. I know piccolo was tired when he fought Shisami after fighting hundreds of warriors. But how strong is piccolo at this point? And how strong was Shisami?

[Low Tone G]

Piccolo FPSSJ ballpark. Shisami low novice SSJ tier. Being that Piccolo was already worn out made him to have hard time against this fresh Shisami. I had the opportunity to watch the film and it's shown that Piccolo had to fight hundreds of soldiers alone.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

I have Shisami at Ginyu level and Piccolo at the level before he fused with Kami.

[Lord Beerus]

Even though I think the concept of Piccolo getting tired after stomping a couple hundred grunts is bullshit, I'd say that Shisami would be #18-#17 tier and Piccolo is 50% Goku FPSSJ level.

[Hugo Boss]

I saw the movie and Piccolo didn't look tired at all. The ones that appeared to be out of breath during the fight were Roshi and Kuririn. By the way, Piccolo and Shisame are stronger than Tenshinhan and co., but weaker than Gohan.

[Lord Beerus]

I saw the movie and Piccolo didn't look tired at all. The ones that appeared to be out of breath during the fight were Roshi and Kuririn. By the way, Piccolo and Shisame are stronger than Tenshinhan and co., but weaker than Gohan.

If that's the case, then I would bump up Shisami to Cell Jr. tier

[supercat]

Piccolo seemed like he was already closing in on Cell Jr. tier during the Cell Games. With years of continued training, I wouldn't be surprised if he actually managed to surpass Perfect Cell by the time Frieza was revived.

For Shisami to have given a fighter of this caliber the amount of trouble he did, I imagine he too must be in the same realm of power as the biological android's perfect form.

[h0kuten]

The way I'm trying to view it is Gohan's Super Saiyan state replaced his Mystic state. So when Gohan is in his Base form, it's essentially Mystic divided by fifty. That's my attempt to put Base Gohan within the ballpark of where Piccolo is.

Piccolo should be steadily getting stronger since The Cell Games. Toriyama's interview always say Piccolo is one known to always train during his off time. Other characters such as Goku & Gohan have reached such thresholds of power that the relevancy of showing Piccolo's new improvements isn't at all important anymore. With that said, Fukkatsu no F Piccolo should be far, far stronger than The Majin Buu Saga or Cell Games Piccolo, after having Dragonball Super, Battle of Gods & Yo Son Goku! to power up in.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, Piccolo suddenly and mysteriously dropping all the way down to Zarbon-level somehow would make absolutely zero sense any way you slice it. So I'm going to go with either one of two options:

1) Shisami trained along with Freeza and caught up to Piccolo's general level of power, enough to give him trouble, or...
2) Shisami is still more-or-less at the same level, but Piccolo was REALLY tired and off-guard.

Could be some combination of the two, but seeing how it took Super Saiyan Gohan to KO Shisami, I'm betting it's mostly or entirely Option #1. Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels, but that's not stopping us from caring or wanting to come up with an answer.

With any luck, Super will sort of re-write these events into something a little more coherent anyway. Really, all it would take is one little shot of Shisami serving as a sparring partner for Freeza, and bam, there's the reason he can tango with Piccolo.

[supercat]

Yeah, Piccolo suddenly and mysteriously dropping all the way down to Zarbon-level somehow would make absolutely zero sense any way you slice it. So I'm going to go with either one of two options:

1) Shisami trained alon with Freeza and caught up to Piccolo's general level of power, enough to give him trouble, or...
2) Shisami is still more-or-less at the same level, but Piccolo was REALLY tired and off-guard.

Could be some combination of the two, but seeing how it took Super Saiyan Gohan to KO Shisami, I'm betting it's mostly or entirely Option #1. Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels, but that's not stopping us from caring or wanting to come up with an answer.

With any luck, Super will sort of re-write these events into something a little more coherent anyway. Really, all it would take is one little shot of Shisami serving as a sparring partner for Freeza, and bam, there's the reason he can tango with Piccolo.

Your first option seems the most viable at this point. If we keep things strictly in-universe, I agree that it would be absurdly illogical for Piccolo to have suddenly been reduced to Zarbon tier.

I too hope that we get some indication of Shisami training in Super.

[ZombieVito]

I have Piccolo stronger than East Kaioshin and Shisami a bit over a Cell Junior.

Numbers:

Piccolo [RoF]: 3,000
East Kaioshin: 2,800
Shisami: 2,200
Piccolo [A bit tired]: 2,100
Cell Junior: 2,000

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Gohan losing his Ultimate power up and SSJ2 makes zero sense... Roshi out of nowhere being able to fight against Freeza's soldiers makes zero sense... Yamcha not being apart of the battle even though he should be able to fight off some nameless soldiers makes zero sense.

Half of the stuff in that move makes zero sense. Why is this any different?

[dbzfan7]

Of course, the real answer is that Toriyama and/or Toei's writers just don't give a fudge about power levels

The answer I went with, as the movie heavily implied to me they don't give a shit. They do however try to care for story consistency, ala the change to Toriyama's blunder.

[supercat]

Gohan losing his Ultimate power up and SSJ2 makes zero sense... Roshi out of nowhere being able to fight against Freeza's soldiers makes zero sense... Yamcha not being apart of the battle even though he should be able to fight off some nameless soldiers makes zero sense.

Half of the stuff in that move makes zero sense. Why is this any different?

The majority of those things have some feasibility behind them though.

-Gohan's loss of his Ultimate power could be attributed to his lack of training or even the SSG ritual. Perhaps it was the ritual that actually altered the way Gohan powers up by involuntarily drawing the SSJ out of him. Considering how he was seen as an SSJ during the ritual, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole process itself had something to do with the absence of his Ultimate form.

-With Yamcha's natural inclination towards cowardly behavior, I find him opting out of the big battle rather consistent with his character. It would be more out of the ordinary for him to boldly step out into the front lines against one of the most historically dangerous villains the team has ever had to face.

-Roshi training and reaching a new realm of power that enables him to take down a group of useless mooks doesn't seem too fart-fetched if you ask me.

In fact, a Cell Jr. tier fighter suddenly declining to the same level as a pair of weaklings who were already considered to be complete fodders back in the Namek arc sounds far more preposterous.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Gohan losing his Ultimate power up and SSJ2 makes zero sense... Roshi out of nowhere being able to fight against Freeza's soldiers makes zero sense... Yamcha not being apart of the battle even though he should be able to fight off some nameless soldiers makes zero sense.

Half of the stuff in that move makes zero sense. Why is this any different?

The majority of those things have some feasibility behind them though.

-Gohan's loss of his Ultimate power could be attributed to his lack of training or even the SSG ritual. Perhaps it was the ritual that actually altered the way Gohan powers up by involuntarily drawing the SSJ out of him. Considering how he was seen as an SSJ during the ritual, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole process itself had something to do with the absence of his Ultimate form.

Loses a magical power up due to lack of training? I'm just gonna say what many people before me said "bullshit"... Even if he did lose it due to the god ritual it would have been nice if that was the reason given... The way they play it is almost like he never had the power up to begin with.

-With Yamcha's natural inclination towards cowardly behavior, I find him opting out of the big battle rather consistent with his character. It would be more out of the ordinary for him to boldly step out into the front lines against one of the most historically dangerous villains the team has ever had to face.

He had big balls being apart of the search for the androids and even being near the Cell games arena. You would think he would be excited to hear that a bunch of useless mooks were attacking earth. "What's that? A bunch of mooks with weak power levels are attacking!?! Time to show the team how badass I really am!"

-Roshi training and reaching a new realm of power that enables him to take down a group of useless mooks doesn't seem too fart-fetched if you ask me.

I do believe Roshi could become stronger if he trained. But he doesn't train... He sits on his island sleeping, reading his magazines, and watching his fitness programs.
Maybe like Freeza he trains off screen but we're never told. Maybe like Freeza he's another fucking prodigy....

[ZombieVito]

Roshi just fought the very weak soldiers. The ones with a BP in the 100's.

There, problem solved.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Roshi just fought the very weak soldiers. The ones with a BP in the 100's.

There, problem solved.

Soldiers with BP in the 100's?

Freeza should've packed Saibamen instead...

[Doctor.]

Roshi just fought the very weak soldiers. The ones with a BP in the 100's.

There, problem solved.

Soldiers with BP in the 100's?

Freeza should've packed Saibamen instead...

We know nothing about the Saibaiman. If they're easy to produce, if their strength is always set at 1,200, if Freeza even has any more, if Vegeta and Nappa kept them a secret from Freeza.

Kuririn and Gohan on Namek with ~1,500 defeated two Freeza soldiers quite easily. Raditz also thought that Goku at ~300 could be useful for Freeza's army. Not to mention that in the "F" script, Toriyama says Freeza's army is nothing compared to what it once was. It seems perfectly believable that there could be soldiers around 100 in strength, plus Roshi was the only one who seemed visibly tired and damaged in the movie.

[ZombieVito]

Roshi just fought the very weak soldiers. The ones with a BP in the 100's.

There, problem solved.

Soldiers with BP in the 100's?

Freeza should've packed Saibamen instead...

Well Freeza did hire strong mercenaries. These mercenaries almost killed Krillin.

[supercat]

Gohan losing his Ultimate power up and SSJ2 makes zero sense... Roshi out of nowhere being able to fight against Freeza's soldiers makes zero sense... Yamcha not being apart of the battle even though he should be able to fight off some nameless soldiers makes zero sense.

Half of the stuff in that move makes zero sense. Why is this any different?

The majority of those things have some feasibility behind them though.

-Gohan's loss of his Ultimate power could be attributed to his lack of training or even the SSG ritual. Perhaps it was the ritual that actually altered the way Gohan powers up by involuntarily drawing the SSJ out of him. Considering how he was seen as an SSJ during the ritual, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole process itself had something to do with the absence of his Ultimate form.

Loses a magical power up due to lack of training? I'm just gonna say what many people before me said "bullshit"... Even if he did lose it due to the god ritual it would have been nice if that was the reason given... The way they play it is almost like he never had the power up to begin with.

-With Yamcha's natural inclination towards cowardly behavior, I find him opting out of the big battle rather consistent with his character. It would be more out of the ordinary for him to boldly step out into the front lines against one of the most historically dangerous villains the team has ever had to face.

He had big balls being apart of the search for the androids and even being near the Cell games arena. You would think he would be excited to hear that a bunch of useless mooks were attacking earth. "What's that? A bunch of mooks with weak power levels are attacking!?! Time to show the team how badass I really am!"

-Roshi training and reaching a new realm of power that enables him to take down a group of useless mooks doesn't seem too fart-fetched if you ask me.

I do believe Roshi could become stronger if he trained. But he doesn't train... He sits on his island sleeping, reading his magazines, and watching his fitness programs.
Maybe like Freeza he trains off screen but we're never told. Maybe like Freeza he's another fucking prodigy....

Some of your points could really go either way. I was simply sharing my perception on the matter, and providing some insight on what I felt was plausible as forming speculations based on hypothetical scenarios is far more rewarding than simply resorting to something as lame as "Toriyama forgot" or "they changed things." Considering how this is an in-universe thread, I'm not sure how blaming things on the writing and negating all other theories brought up for the sake of discussion even contributes towards this kind of debate.

-Gohan's name has been tied to numerous power increases and decreases in the past, so this could very well be another solid example of that.

-Yamcha hasn't been an active member of the team for awhile, so it wouldn't surprise me if he chose to exclude himself from the big fight. Having the courage to take on a band of mooks doesn't by default grant him the determination to fight the emperor of evil himself.

-We don't know if Roshi fought the weaker grunts, or if his impressive performance was a result of training.

Regardless, none of these things are nearly as far-fetched as Piccolo suddenly having the misery of being grouped with a useless pair of lackeys like Zarbon and Dodoria.