After some research on what the Super Saiyan multipliers do, I've found out that they are only noted for their linear multiplication affect on power levels, not on actual stats (such as strength, speed, defensive force, and destructive force). It is even stated that they affect power levels by Beerus and Whis in Dragon Ball Super, and note that they were only stated to affect power levels.
So I ask, could the SSJ multipliers affect stats the exact same way they do power levels (as in multiplying them linearly)? Is there any evidence for this? Because if not, then the SSJ multipliers are useless for calculations on Dragon Ball character stats. Because, to quote DBZA Vegeta: "Power Levels are bullsh*t".
Discuss.
Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
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Tonathan100
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
Raising the battle power through training doesn't seem to do it, otherwise Goku wouldn't have trouble lifting 40 tons in Boo arc, so the same should go for the Super Saiyan multipliers, I guess.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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SSJ2FutureGohan
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
Base Gohan couldn't pull out the Zeta Sword, Super Saiyan Gohan could.
So it does increase physical strength.
Besides, things like speed/strength usually seem to correlate with battle power unless specifically noted otherwise.
So it does increase physical strength.
Besides, things like speed/strength usually seem to correlate with battle power unless specifically noted otherwise.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
The stats do increase when you increase your battle power, I think this was even stated in the series. However, increasing your battle power by x50 doesn't mean that strength, speed, etc will increase x50. Goku at the beginning of the series could lift a car, which should weight about a ton (I think?), but in Boo arc, where he has gotten millions of times stronger, he has trouble lifting 40 tons.SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Base Gohan couldn't pull out the Zeta Sword, Super Saiyan Gohan could.
So it does increase physical strength.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
Goku stated that using the Kaioken increased everything. Speed, strength, even his senses.
Fast forward a little, and he's using Kaio x10 against Frieza to little if any effect. Then when he goes SSJ, he is able to exceed Frieza's abilities where he previously couldn't. His power level wasn't just higher, he was faster and stronger. I find it unlikely that he went from Kaio-x10-augmented-physical-abilities (and we know Kaioken augments physical abilities) that were weaker than Frieza to SSJ-augmented-power-level-but-little-if-any-increased-physical-abilities that are now wrecking Frieza. Ergo, SSJ augments both power level and physical abilities because that's what Kaioken does. It's explicit for Kaioken and, I believe, implicit for SSJ.
As for the 40 ton thing, we don't know the parameters of that training regimen. We know Goku had figured out SSJ3 towards the end of the seven-year-hiatus because he told Buu he hadn't had much time to practice it (and he later tells Vegeta it was untested). And we know that the 8-ton training (that ended up being 40 tons) was within, what, a month? of his coming back to Earth. So unless you hold that he had only figured out SSJ3 in, like, the last week or two, he had SSJ3 before the 8-ton training.
So it's possible that the 8-ton training was for SSJ3. He knows it's incredibly draining of energy, but maybe if he can train straight for five weeks on end constantly wearing 8 tons, then maybe he'll be better suited for using SSJ3. Or it might've been for months (with the only break being when he see him using King Kai to tell his friends that he'll be joining the Tournament).
Or the 8-ton training might have nothing to do with using SSJ3. I'm just saying that we don't know the parameters of the 8-/40-ton training feat.
Fast forward a little, and he's using Kaio x10 against Frieza to little if any effect. Then when he goes SSJ, he is able to exceed Frieza's abilities where he previously couldn't. His power level wasn't just higher, he was faster and stronger. I find it unlikely that he went from Kaio-x10-augmented-physical-abilities (and we know Kaioken augments physical abilities) that were weaker than Frieza to SSJ-augmented-power-level-but-little-if-any-increased-physical-abilities that are now wrecking Frieza. Ergo, SSJ augments both power level and physical abilities because that's what Kaioken does. It's explicit for Kaioken and, I believe, implicit for SSJ.
As for the 40 ton thing, we don't know the parameters of that training regimen. We know Goku had figured out SSJ3 towards the end of the seven-year-hiatus because he told Buu he hadn't had much time to practice it (and he later tells Vegeta it was untested). And we know that the 8-ton training (that ended up being 40 tons) was within, what, a month? of his coming back to Earth. So unless you hold that he had only figured out SSJ3 in, like, the last week or two, he had SSJ3 before the 8-ton training.
So it's possible that the 8-ton training was for SSJ3. He knows it's incredibly draining of energy, but maybe if he can train straight for five weeks on end constantly wearing 8 tons, then maybe he'll be better suited for using SSJ3. Or it might've been for months (with the only break being when he see him using King Kai to tell his friends that he'll be joining the Tournament).
Or the 8-ton training might have nothing to do with using SSJ3. I'm just saying that we don't know the parameters of the 8-/40-ton training feat.
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Twilight: Over NINE THOUSAND!!!
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Pantalones
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
Super Saiyan multipliers affect your power level as measured by scouters. Higher power level means more strength, speed, etc... but those increases don't necessarily seem to be linear at all. Otherwise Goku at the beginning of the series wouldn't be able to lift a car, at least going by the "Goku's power level was 10 back then" stuff (though the Dragonball power levels in general are pretty iffy), because random farmer guy with an "average human" power level definitely could not lift 1000 pounds.
It's known that flying using Bukujutsu is pretty draining on the user's ki supply (hence why beginning-of-Z Goku didn't use it for long-distance travel yet, calling on the cloud instead.) Lifting something heavy and flying at the same time is much more difficult than just lifting on its own, partly due to Bukujutsu's drain on the user's energy supply and partly because you don't have solid ground to brace against. On top of that, Goku wasn't just lifting 40 tons with his hands like you'd normally lift a heavy weight; he had 1/4 of it strapped to each wrist and ankle, which puts the weight on very different parts of the body than just crouching down and grabbing it and then lifting it normally would. And even then, the weight only made it hard for him to stay airborne and impossible for him to keep zipping around punching and kicking like he had before; he didn't drop like a rock or anything, he just slowly drifted toward the ground before catching himself (so he actually could lift the 40 tons, even in the awkward "10 on each limb" arrangement, while flying -- just based on that, I seriously doubt he'd have difficulty with 40 tons if he was standing on solid ground and lifting it normally) and then going Super Saiyan, which made him able to move around and train with the weights as if they weighed virtually nothing.
And of course, it's impossible to guess how much they weigh with any degree of accuracy, but Super shows Goku lifting enormous weights on the North Kaio's planet which are so big they pretty much have to weigh many, many tons unless you're going to be absurd and claim they're filled with helium or made of styrofoam or something like that as a "disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, regardless of whether it makes any sense at all" kind of thing. And even then... he's lifting them in 10x gravity. So it seems that Goku's "standing on solid ground, focusing his strength entirely on lifting" limit is most definitely not anywhere near as low as 40 tons, even in his base form.
I'm guessing the reason why there doesn't seem to be as drastic a difference in lifting strength from early Goku to Buu saga Goku if you use the "40 tons" scene for comparison is that it's two very different kinds of lifting involved in these scenarios, so they really shouldn't be compared as if they're the same thing.Goku at the beginning of the series could lift a car, which should weight about a ton (I think?), but in Boo arc, where he has gotten millions of times stronger, he has trouble lifting 40 tons.
It's known that flying using Bukujutsu is pretty draining on the user's ki supply (hence why beginning-of-Z Goku didn't use it for long-distance travel yet, calling on the cloud instead.) Lifting something heavy and flying at the same time is much more difficult than just lifting on its own, partly due to Bukujutsu's drain on the user's energy supply and partly because you don't have solid ground to brace against. On top of that, Goku wasn't just lifting 40 tons with his hands like you'd normally lift a heavy weight; he had 1/4 of it strapped to each wrist and ankle, which puts the weight on very different parts of the body than just crouching down and grabbing it and then lifting it normally would. And even then, the weight only made it hard for him to stay airborne and impossible for him to keep zipping around punching and kicking like he had before; he didn't drop like a rock or anything, he just slowly drifted toward the ground before catching himself (so he actually could lift the 40 tons, even in the awkward "10 on each limb" arrangement, while flying -- just based on that, I seriously doubt he'd have difficulty with 40 tons if he was standing on solid ground and lifting it normally) and then going Super Saiyan, which made him able to move around and train with the weights as if they weighed virtually nothing.
And of course, it's impossible to guess how much they weigh with any degree of accuracy, but Super shows Goku lifting enormous weights on the North Kaio's planet which are so big they pretty much have to weigh many, many tons unless you're going to be absurd and claim they're filled with helium or made of styrofoam or something like that as a "disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing, regardless of whether it makes any sense at all" kind of thing. And even then... he's lifting them in 10x gravity. So it seems that Goku's "standing on solid ground, focusing his strength entirely on lifting" limit is most definitely not anywhere near as low as 40 tons, even in his base form.
Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
I'm pretty sure they can balance their ki as they please.
it was never implied ssj is not linear iirc, infact Didnt Ussj prove that basic ssj is linear?
correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt it mention somewhere that flying technique made goku struggle with 40 tons?
from chapter one to buu saga I'm pretty sure goku's physicsl strength is got more than only 40 times more.
in the end of the day it comes from ki.
it was never implied ssj is not linear iirc, infact Didnt Ussj prove that basic ssj is linear?
correct me if I'm wrong but wasnt it mention somewhere that flying technique made goku struggle with 40 tons?
from chapter one to buu saga I'm pretty sure goku's physicsl strength is got more than only 40 times more.
in the end of the day it comes from ki.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
I know that they shouldn't be compared, but if Goku's strength had became million times stronger compared to when he was a kid, the way he would be lifting the weights wouldn't matter.Pantalones wrote:I'm guessing the reason why there doesn't seem to be as drastic a difference in lifting strength from early Goku to Buu saga Goku if you use the "40 tons" scene for comparison is that it's two very different kinds of lifting involved in these scenarios, so they really shouldn't be compared as if they're the same thing.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Blackstripe
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
We also have to consider if the gravity where he was training was heavier than the Earth's. If it was 10x, then that would be 400 tons, not 40. While not stated in that scene, there's no reason to think Goku would choose inferior training conditions.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
Even if it was 4000 tons, he shouldn't have a problem if his strength was increased by millions of times since the time he was a kid.Blackstripe wrote:We also have to consider if the gravity where he was training was heavier than the Earth's. If it was 10x, then that would be 400 tons, not 40. While not stated in that scene, there's no reason to think Goku would choose inferior training conditions.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: Do the SSJ Multipliers Linearly Affect Stats?
This is the kind of question that there is no clear answer to.
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