Alliance with a villain? (Hypothetical)

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:21 am

A lot of former villains eventually became allies with Goku in the Dragonball series, but out of the ones who didn't, which of them would be most willing/capable of working with the good guys to accomplish some mutual goal?

My guess would be Freeza or King Cold, since they appeared to be slightly more rational and restrained than the average villain. They also didn't appear to be mindlessly destructive or incapable of realizing when an alliance would best serve their interests.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:40 am

I disagree Freeza's pride wouldn't LET him. King Cold MAYBE but I also doubt it.

The most likely? Tao Pai Pai and/or Crane Hermet, they're evil but they just might begrudgingly help if they had to.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:46 am

Ooooh, very interesting question!

Hmmmm, I think one possibilty might be Babidi actually. If it was the case where it was a common enemy, and especially just say if Babidi's life was threatened, I think he most certainly would have no problem working with Goku and the others. He always seemed like quite a coward to me, who just talked big. You know, like the kind of guy that would taunt and brag when an enemy was knocked out, but then freak and hide if they came too. A lot like Oolong really.

I'm sure he would welcome help from the Z Senshi, especially if it helped him save his skin. I wouldn't be suprised if he would've helped to fight against Majin Buu in some way towards the end had he not been killed by him when Buu finally rebelled, for the sake of revenge if not anything else. He also struck me as very spiteful. Hey, the whole reason he was resurrecting Buu in the first place was for revenge against Kaioshin for his father's death. Also there was that hilarious scene when Babidi was in Hell and he pretended to brag that he was the one that trained Buu and how proud he was of at the moment to the other villians, but then as soon as he walked out of earshot, he started angrily grumbling for Goku to do his best to defeat him and get his revenge for him!

So, ya I guess that's my choice, even though I still think Babidi's a hateful little coward.

I'll be really interested to read everyone else's choices.

Professor Daravon · Post by **Professor Daravon** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:56 am

After being defeated by Goku, Freeza would never be able to ally with the Z Senshi. His hatred of Goku would have overcome his rationality.

I'll agree that Taopaipai or Tsurusennin would both be candidates; so would Babidi. I also think Pilaf could have learned to accept a truce if it were in his best interest. I think there's an outside chance that, given the correct circumstances, Cell could have forged a temporary alliance with them. Actually, the only people I can think of right off hand who I don't think would ever ally with the Z Senshi are, as already stated, Freeza and his men, Piccolo Daimaou, probably the Red Ribbon Army, and maybe Nappa and Raditz. Nappa and Raditz were both significantly less intelligent than Vegeta, so under circumstances similar to the ones under which Vegeta formed an alliance with Kuririn and Gohan, Raditz and Nappa, with their supposed superiority over the Earthlings, may have chosen to go it alone...but that's just speculation, and assumes that Vegeta wouldn't be around to force them to ally with the Z Senshi. Other than those people, I can't think of anyone off the top of my head who I couldn't see teaming up with the Z Senshi if the situation warranted it.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 10:37 am

You guys are overlooking King Cold... you get the impression that the guy would do anything to survive, especially because of him trying to ally with Trunks. Of course, he was asking Trunks to work for him, but I could see it working the other way around if it was the only possible option.

If it was in Cold's best interests, I'm sure he would help them do something. That's how things work with everybody, ever. The only factor that works against this is stubbornness.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:21 pm

hum...

Pilaf- I dunno... he's supposed to be a 8-bit theater Garland kind of characther... He probably would team up to save his life but that would be it... or not. He could notice how "evil" really was bad and give up in being evil... he was pathethic, look at his horror when Bulma asked him if he was going to torture her.

Tao pai pai and Tsuru- Tsuru is a possibility, but Tao pai pai is an idiot, as a hero he'd be as useful as filler Kuririn, always hiding and shivering. He never really join the heroes, only would stop attacking them. Tsuru is more likely because he was good many years ago.

Piccolo Daimao- = Piccolo jr.(who had all his memories) Therefore he DID become good.

Red Ribbon- It's possible. But only if Commander Red can get the Dragon Balls to become taller, and Gero(Am I the only one who thinks that he might be White?) and Black aren't around.

Radtiz&Nappa- I can't see it. They're too attached to their Sayan lives, and probably would try to team up with the new villain, not with the heroes. Vegeta changed, but he was different, he never cared about the sayans, he only cared about HIS pride.

Freeza&Kold- They would make only an temporary alliance, and if this is after Goku SSJ defeats Freeza, even that is unlikely.

Cell- I could see it happening. He isn't too different from Vegeta and Piccolo, if Goku had been the one stronger than him, he'd probably be alive for Boo Saga.

Dabura- Don't they state in the manga that he became good after dying?

Post by **TripleRach** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 12:51 pm

Neon Z wrote:Dabura- Don't they state in the manga that he became good after dying?

Enma just says that he sent him to Heaven, since the king of the demon world probably would've liked Hell.

Anabolic · Post by **Anabolic** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:07 pm

Furiza defiantly wouldn’t, unlike Cell and Buu he had the choice to be good or evil, and he chose evil, so I couldn’t ever see him joining the Z Senshi. The only type of villians that would join are the ones who are to weak to make a difference, and to weak to oppose any of the Z Senshi.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:42 pm

Pilaf and his crew.. eh.. Probably, but they're too weak to make a difference, and they'd just run away if someone powerful looked their way anyway.

A lot of the Red Ribbon guys could possibly change. Especcially if Red told them he woas going to kill them, and Goku appeared and saved their asses.

Tao Pai Pai.. eh, can't really see it happening unless the good guys were way too strong for him to have any hope of dealing damage to. But then he'd be too weak to be of any use, and he wouldn't do anything unless he was forced anyway.

Tsuru Sennin, maybe, if Kame Sennin managed to convince him that evil is bad and stuff like that, like he did with Tenshinhan.

Raditz and Nappa would just backstab everybody when they got a chanse.

Freeza and Kold are too proud.

Freeza's men.. maybe, if the good guys killed Freeza and his family first, so they would have any vengeful third cousins of their old master to worry about.

Dr. Gero, definitly no.
#19 wouldn't do anything unless Gero told him to do it, so he wouldn't either. If Gero died first, he'd just fight for his master.

Seru, definitly no. He'd rather destroy himself in hope of damaging a good guy than joining them.

Babidi, probably, if he had something to gain from it, like the destruction of a traitorous Buu.

Babidi's men never really had much personality anyway. They were just killing machines.

Dabura.. yeah, if hell was in danger, he'd probably join anyone to save the place.

As for Evil Buu and Kid Buu, they were pretty much pure evil, and would rather destroy everything around them, taking as many lives as possible before they died, if they had no other choise than joining with the good guys.

Professor Daravon · Post by **Professor Daravon** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 6:55 am

Neon Z wrote:Piccolo Daimao- = Piccolo jr.(who had all his memories) Therefore he DID become good.

Piccolo Daimaou was pure evil, though. Ma Junior wasn't. If we were dealing with the original Piccolo Daimaou, then I would say that maybe he could have swallowed his pride long enough for an alliance with Goku against Raditz, but he would not have turned permanently good like the real Piccolo did. I have a hard time seeing even a temporary alliance between Goku and Piccolo Daimaou, but maybe it could have happened. Piccolo Daimaou and Ma Junior are NOT the same, though, so it's inaccurate to say that because Piccolo became good, Piccolo Daimaou could have become good too.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 9:12 am

Yes, I was going to make that point too. As a matter of fact, when Gohan is training with Piccolo in the wilderness and the scene of them a night by the fire comes, Gohan tells Piccolo that his father told him that he didn't think he was as bad as the "old" Piccolo.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:53 pm

Ohh nitpicky time

Seru

Its Cell not Seru unless you want to start calling Trunks Terunkusu and Vegeta Bejita and Videl Bederu.

as for Cell's ability to change - its possible - say if Buu showed up in the middle of the Cell Saga - he's not going to let mr piky blow the world up thats HIS job, a temporary alliance would be possible.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 6:48 am

Yes, they are the same. It's stated that Piccolo(the new one) and Kamisama were one long ago. So Piccolo still is Kamisama's evil side.

Also... Piccolo has his father's memories(stated) and his soul(he's stated to be the reencarnation of King Piccolo)... so... the only difference between them is Piccolo's younger body.

Piccolo jr. = Piccolo Daimao

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:01 am

Neon Z wrote:
Piccolo jr. = Piccolo Daimao

Yeah, he even refers to himself as Piccolo Daimaou. I just remembered the ep of GT where he was trying to get himself to Hell and started firing attacks at random in Heaven, stating his "true" identity,

Then he sees the damage he caused and apologizes.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:35 am

I still disagree. Yes he is still Kami's other half, but really only by default. He's not the original Piccolo Daimao. He is not exactly the same, Goku even states this in DB and as I stated above, Gohan repeats his father's opinion in DBZ to Piccolo when they are training. Don't forget that the method of reproduction for Namekians is through asexual cloning, and that is how Piccolo Daimao produced Ma Junior in the first place. He may have his memories, but I still feel he is more Daimao's offspring. If we were to go by your reasoning, then that would mean that all of Saichoro's offspring back on Namek are him and that's clearly not true.

M-Vegeta · Post by **M-Vegeta** » Thu Mar 25, 2004 7:37 am

I would of liked to have seen the reverse "what if". Say, if Trunks took King Cold up on his offer to join his clan. How would Gokuu and the Z fighters handle that kind of fight.

Professor Daravon · Post by **Professor Daravon** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 3:42 pm

Neon Z wrote:Yes, they are the same. It's stated that Piccolo(the new one) and Kamisama were one long ago. So Piccolo still is Kamisama's evil side.

Also... Piccolo has his father's memories(stated) and his soul(he's stated to be the reencarnation of King Piccolo)... so... the only difference between them is Piccolo's younger body.

Piccolo jr. = Piccolo Daimao

So then you would contend that Piccolo is pure evil? And if so, then how do you explain that he was a good guy for almost the entire story?

M-Vegeta wrote:I would of liked to have seen the reverse "what if". Say, if Trunks took King Cold up on his offer to join his clan. How would Gokuu and the Z fighters handle that kind of fight.

Well, seeing as Goku wasn't there yet, there would have been one of two possibilities:

A. Goku uses Shunkan Idou to show up early and save the day, as he had been planning to do against Freeza before Trunks showed up and took care of the problem. Goku could take care of King Cold without a problem and then could take on Trunks. Wouldn't really be a problem for him because he doesn't know who Trunks is at this point, so he would have no qualms about fighting him.

B. Goku doesn't use Shunkan Idou and the Z Senshi are screwed.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:56 pm

So then you would contend that Piccolo is pure evil? And if so, then how do you explain that he was a good guy for almost the entire story?

He WAS pure evil, but Gohan changed him. Come on, look at Piccolo's Jr. personality at the end of db, it's more like his fathers personality than his Freeza/Cell Saga personality. It's easy to see that Gohan, and not his death, was the turning point of his charachter.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:05 pm

But you're forgetting that Goku wanted Piccolo spared at the end of the tournament and gave him a senzu bean because he felt that "this" Piccolo wasn't as bad as the original. There was obviously something different about him, even back then, five years before he would train Gohan.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Sat Mar 27, 2004 11:22 pm

Ma Junior is definitely different. Even when he first shows up, to me (I don't know whether it was the animation or what) he seems less belligerent from the start (of course, I'm trying not to be prejustice having seen the series out of order like every other American). Just the fact that he tolerated the tournament's proceedings and didn't start popping demons out of his mouth to kill people on the fly says a lot. I've always seen Jr. as an immensely deep character and just saying that he is solely Daimou reincarnated is an injustice to the complexity of his character. Really, it's interesting when you think about his age as well. Biologically, he's only about four years older than Gohan (but I guess the reincarnated aspect with all the old memories can explain his quick growth to adulthood and his broad intellect; as a side, people have always sited the namek aging plothole in regards to Piccolo vs. Nameks like Dende, but it really isn't when you consider that both Piccolo's are demons). But anyways, I always thought Jr. had a sense of honor as to him from the very start that Daimou had never exhibited. Plus, doesn't Ma Jr. tell Gohan he is cursed or something? To me, this also is evidence that he has a some destiny to follow out which was given to him. Daimou never said he was cursed. Did he even speak as eloquently as Piccolo for that matter? So yes, he has all the knowledge and memories of the old Piccolo, but that doesn't mean that he is the same person or that he is supposed to be forever bounded by those thoughts, which of course becomes obvious. Daimou could have never changed the way Jr. did.

This was said waaay back: If Dr. Gero was Captain/Commander White or whatever, he aged terribly....like the guy in the Robin Williams movie. Plus Toriyama had easily forgotten about White by then. He forgot about Lunch, and now people have to remind him about Tao Pai Pai and Kamesennin. I hope he still remembers Piccolo, he wasn't too important in the Buu saga, afterall, not to mention it is his favorite DB character.

Kanzenshuu

Alliance with a villain? (Hypothetical)

Alliance with a villain? (Hypothetical)

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