What´s the obsession with DB needing to be "serious" ?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

In my short experience within Kanzenshuu´s forum i have seen some group of users having some kind of (for lack of appropiate word) "rejection" torwards Dragon Ball being "kiddy" and not "serious", "tense", "at stakes" like in the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arc (or not being DeeBeeZee). Some examples of what i´m trying say would be:

"Kiddy" things that specific part of fandon rejects (wont name them all just some random examples on top of my head):

• Gags in general
• Lack of blood
• No "consequences"or collateral damange
• "Serious" things being treated as gags (Beerus and planet Vegeta)
• Tone down violence (like no limbs being ripped, no blood,no necks broken, no bones being smashed, not dying, you name it)

"Serious" things that specific part of the fandon is desperate wanting:

• Violence at finest (like limbs beind ripped, blood, neck brokens, bones being smashed, dieing as permanet, you name it)
• No gags (period or at all)
• Having "consecuence"/colateral damange
• Characters having internal and psycological struggel for something in some kind of Neon Genesis Evangelion level of deppresion.
• Taking itself seriously

I mean what´s the problem with Dragon Ball being lighthearted, comical ? I mean a story doesn´t need to be "serious" (in the fashion of the examples i mentioned before) to be good and have quality.

To end this i will repeat again: Why DB needs to be serious ? and Why the obsession ?

[DragonBalllKaiHD]

So, you want Dragon Ball to be funny all the time? I don't.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

So, you want Dragon Ball to be funny all the time? I don't.

I don´t have a problem with that but, do you want Dragon Ball to be serious all the time ? I don´t.

[VegettoEX]

(Speaking in generalizations here both from experience and from observation.)

I think it's growing pains both for the show for the fans.

A lot of the fans in their 20s are looking for something with a little more substance in that department from their entertainment, and they still love Dragon Ball... so in their mind they'd love the two to meld together that way. That makes sense. Other properties have been able to grow that way with their fans, and wouldn't it be neat for Dragon Ball to go the same way? It sorta kinda did over the course of its original serialization, so why can't it pick back up that way now?

The thing is, that's not entirely what the series ever was in totality, and that's absolutely 100% not who Toriyama is as an author. When he gets too close to the fire, he runs the Hell away from it.

Speaking as someone NOT in their 20s anymore, I've pretty much made peace with that. I think I'm able to recognize what Dragon Ball is for a property, who its author is, and what that means for any new creations it's going to get. That doesn't mean I don't still have other aspirations/hopes for it in the story-telling and writing department, but at the end of the day you DO have to be a little more realistic about it.

I continue to point toward Rurouni Kenshin as the prime example of everything going wrong... after one example of everything going perfectly. The original four-episode OVA series (which re-told Kenshin's past with Tomoe) is a prime example of jaw-droppingly-amazing execution on all levels. It completely ignored the slapstick side of the on-going anime adaptation (and the manga it was sourcing itself on), and took itself completely seriously. It did so with a new animation style and a new musical scoring tone. It was exceptional.

Jump ahead to the post-Kyoto re-telling OVAs, and the disasters begin. Ham-fisted extra drama that the original author doesn't approve of (illness! death! no-one is happy! no redemption! yeah, that's what everyone liked about these characters!). Then jump even further ahead to the Kyoto re-telling OVAs/movies... and you have a sex-scene with Shishio and Yumi. A sex-scene in a shonen adaptation. It's so. completely. tone-deaf.

I hope there's a good point in there somewhere.

[ABED]

I like a good mix. I don't think it always has to go in one direction or the other. Sometimes it's appropriate to go more serious, then go lighter the next arc, but it all depends on execution. I like the switch in tones between the King Piccolo and 23rd Budokai arcs. It wasn't a radical shift and there certainly were serious stakes, but the tournament was noticeably lighter than the previous arc. If things keep going more mature, it could cease to be DB and become overly grim. I enjoy season 6 of Buffy a lot, but god is that a dark season. Season 7's lighter tone was a welcome relief.

Last point, you don't need to be super serious to be mature.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Last point, you don't need to be super serious to be mature.

I would like the fandon to read this.

[successoroffate]

I think the show is fine as it is. It's the perfect mix of both sides.

[Kamiccolo9]

(Speaking in generalizations here both from experience and from observation.)

I think it's growing pains both for the show for the fans.

A lot of the fans in their 20s are looking for something with a little more substance in that department from their entertainment, and they still love Dragon Ball... so in their mind they'd love the two to meld together that way. That makes sense. Other properties have been able to grow that way with their fans, and wouldn't it be neat for Dragon Ball to go the same way? It sorta kinda did over the course of its original serialization, so why can't it pick back up that way now?

The thing is, that's not entirely what the series ever was in totality, and that's absolutely 100% not who Toriyama is as an author. When he gets too close to the fire, he runs the Hell away from it.

Speaking as someone NOT in their 20s anymore, I've pretty much made peace with that. I think I'm able to recognize what Dragon Ball is for a property, who its author is, and what that means for any new creations it's going to get. That doesn't mean I don't still have other aspirations/hopes for it in the story-telling and writing department, but at the end of the day you DO have to be a little more realistic about it.

I continue to point toward Rurouni Kenshin as the prime example of everything going wrong... after one example of everything going perfectly. The original four-episode OVA series (which re-told Kenshin's past with Tomoe) is a prime example of jaw-droppingly-amazing execution on all levels. It completely ignored the slapstick side of the on-going anime adaptation (and the manga it was sourcing itself on), and took itself completely seriously. It did so with a new animation style and a new musical scoring tone. It was exceptional.

Jump ahead to the post-Kyoto re-telling OVAs, and the disasters begin. Ham-fisted extra drama that the original author doesn't approve of (illness! death! no-one is happy! no redemption! yeah, that's what everyone liked about these characters!). Then jump even further ahead to the Kyoto re-telling OVAs/movies... and you have a sex-scene with Shishio and Yumi. A sex-scene in a shonen adaptation. It's so. completely. tone-deaf.

I hope there's a good point in there somewhere.

I believe the point is that "Rurouni Kenshin is the greatest work of fiction ever delivered to us by mortal man, and needs shrines erected in its honor. Oh, and a Kanzenshuu-style site of its own."

But that's just me.

Personally, I treat Reflections and the New Kyoto Arc the same way I do Episode of Bardock. Whenever someone brings them up in real life, I give a blank stare and say "huh?"

On topic, I agree with basically everything else. People who are now adults don't want to reconcile the fact that they like a kid show with their more "mature" sensibilities, so they try to ascribe "mature" aspects to said kid show in order to make it more "acceptable" for them to watch.

[fadeddreams5]

I feel some of this is directed at me. lol.

It's not that I want some overly serious series. I simply prefer the tone and mood of the Piccolo-Cell sagas, Trunks special, and Bardock special. The sense of drama and tension they evoked is why I got into DBZ in the first place. The Namek saga, in particular, constantly had me at the edge of my seat because Krillin and Gohan were in a planet filled with aliens that could wipe the floor with them. This wasn't treated as a joke; humanoid children and elders were mercilessly slaughtered on-screen. Seeing this can make any viewer uneasy and highlights how cruel the villains are, making you root for the main characters to clock them. On the other hand, when you have food-loving, quirky "villains" blowing up planets filled with creatures that seem to belong in a Mario game, it's harder to sympathize. If anything, you sort of root for the villain because you're so indifferent.

Something like Beerus being the catalyst of planet Vegeta's destruction could serve as a trigger of conflict between him and Vegeta, developing both in the process. But when something like this is treated like a gag, it becomes clear that they are avoiding any and all risks when it comes to character development. This was already apparent with how they treated Vegeta and Frieza's relationship in the movie. And that's one of the the main issues I have: modern DB stuff is taking NO RISKS. Everything is just too lighthearted. Couple this with ridiculous concepts, such as Vegeta having a peaceful brother, the SSJG ritual, SSJG itself, and you have yourself a partial explanation as to why this modern stuff is bad to me.

And mind you, my favorite Toei movie is Fusion Reborn because of the humor, so I'm not opposed to it. Implementation of humor isn't the issue; it's how and when it's done that can be a problem. Just look at the battle between Goku and Beerus in Super. Every 5 minutes, they have to cut out to squeeze in a gag. It really doesn't help that I simply don't find Super funny.

[90sDBZ]

I think what a lot of people want is more of a return to the tone of the King Piccolo-Cell sagas, as opposed to the goofiness of more recent storylines. It was this period where the story was at its most straightfaced. I actually found the Buu saga to be pretty dark at times, although from what people have said online the Manga version was actually more slapstick. The point is there's a balance to be found. The story doesn't need to be packed with melodrama to the point that it loses its simplicity, but at the same time it wouldn't hurt for them to try and limit the goofiness a bit.

My only real problem with BoG was its inconsistent tone. You'd have the epic scene of SS3 Goku being easily beaten by Beerus in the same movie as Pilaf and co. running around Bulma's house like they were in a Home Alone movie. I always liked Pilaf in DB and even in GT, but they just felt out of place in BoG. It was like the movie had an identity crisis; on the one hand they still wanted to appeal to nostalgic adults such as us who loved Dragonball for its epic fight scenes and cool transformations, and on the other they wanted to appeal to their main target audience of young kids (supposedly even younger than the original target audience was back in the day).

[Doctor.]

Because, be it a coincidence or not, Dragon Ball's best arcs are what most of the fandom would classify as the serious parts of the franchise. And I am definitely of that opinion. I like the slice of life moments and I don't mind the humor, but I'm not one who really cares for DB's sense of humor that much anyway (especially not in its earlier, more perverted parts). The serious arcs are just more entertaining for some reason, so most people probably think that having a serious tone will automatically make the series better and more entertaining. I personally think the Boo arc (and the BoG arc) is one of the most entertaining of the series and it's light-hearted, so I'm open to either to be honest.

[ABED]

The 21st Tenkaichi Budoaki is a great example of a lighthearted but mature portion of the show. What I don't like about the Buu arc is the humor undercuts the villain and the stakes. Ironically, it's mostly around the Super Buu material. Fat Buu is surprisingly scary when he gets serious.

[fadeddreams5]

Besides the Kid SSJs and Gotenks, was the Buu saga even that lighthearted? Definitely not comparable to the BoG arc in that regards, imo.

[ABED]

Besides the Kid SSJs and Gotenks, was the Buu saga even that lighthearted? Definitely not comparable to the BoG arc in that regards, imo.

When one of your heroes is constantly coming up with silly attacks even though his mother has just been killed, it's a safe bet that it's light of heart.

[fadeddreams5]

If we removed Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks from the equation, and had Gohan arriving earlier (when Super Buu arrived at the lookout), I think that saga would be pretty on par with everything else. As you said, Fat Buu was terrifying. lol.

[ABED]

If we removed Goten, Trunks, and Gotenks from the equation, and had Gohan arriving earlier (when Super Buu arrived at the lookout), I think that saga would be pretty on par with everything else. As you said, Fat Buu was terrifying. lol.

Except when you start bringing Mr. Satan into the mix, then let's not forget the arc starts with the Great Saiyaman adventures.

[fadeddreams5]

True, about Mr. Satan. Though he was present in the Cell Games too.

I like to see the Great Saiyaman arc as its own sort of thing, though, since it's not at all related to anything that happens afterwards.

[Bullza]

Resurrection F had the right mix for me. Mostly serious and somewhat intense but still a lot of funny moments in there as well.

Battle of Gods was a little too much on the light side.

[ABED]

True, about Mr. Satan. Though he was present in the Cell Games too.

I like to see the Great Saiyaman arc as its own sort of thing, though, since it's not at all related to anything that happens afterwards.

But Satan didn't undercut the villain by being his buddy. He was an annoying gnat that was swatted away.

[ekrolo2]

Depends on what kind of story you're trying to tell. BoG and Yo Son Goku were basically big reunions where all your friends are meeting back up for some more cool stuff. Resurrection F, which is at it's flimsy core a revenge story had no business being so toothless. You don't bring back one of the most vicious bad guys of your series then have the target of his revenge treat him as a glorified punching bag & joke. You get the villain to learn from his mistakes and put the heroes through a grueling trial which they barely come out of victorious but battered and bruised and in a place where they have to start reconsidering some things.