Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

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Bacon Skittles
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Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Bacon Skittles » Wed Nov 04, 2015 11:38 pm

So I'm confused. Super Buu absorbed Piccolo, Gotenks, and Gohan. Gohan was around Super Saiyan 3 Goku's strength. Does the strength of those that Buu absorbs add onto his power? If so shouldn't Buu be as power as two Super Saiyan 3's combined? Unless however he only gains a fraction of the strength from those he absorbs.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:03 am

I used to think that fighters of much lower power than his only managed to weaken him. Eventually, he could choose not to tap onto their power, except for both Kais', who trapped him with their souls. I don't know what to think anymore, but in essence, Piccolo's power was being tapped onto because of his smarts.

Kid Buu > Buff Buu > Fat Buu, because he absorbed one Kai for each transformation.
Super Buu > Piccolo Buu. because he absorbed and tapped onto Piccolo's intelligence.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:11 am

It's more or less a clear increase in the manga for everyone minus Dai Kaioshin, and an iffier issue in the expanded canon. At least, the Daizenshuu makes it clear that Kid Buu isn't stronger than Buff Buu.

Some possible contradictions are:

1. Goku being possibly more confident when tackling on Super Buu + Piccolo (main) + Goten + Trunks (secondary?) than when facing normal Super Buu (anime only). But I dislike the notion simply because Gohan was there to help him (his "you don't plan to beat me like that" could simply imply "because Gohan won't let you"; Buu still has Goten and Trunks and they should be stronger than Gohan pre-Z Sword training at this point).
2. Super Buu, in the Budokai 2 game, despairing when he absorbs Yamcha and Tien, as if his power dropped somehow (again, it's a matter of how you want to look at it: he could be mad because he wanted someone stronger but the most obvious implication here is that he got weaker).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AG3-8LWx3I

What about the amount of the increase? Buu suggests that he has the "power of three Saiyans, not even counting the Namekian" so, tentatively, we could say that the being we know as Buuhan, in the series, isn't simply "Buu + Gohan", but "Buu + Gohan + Goten + Trunks + Piccolo". Anime says something rather peculiar, if not headscratch-worthy: when Piccolo reverts from Buutenks to Buucolo, Goku says he lost "over 1/3 of his power". So, either Gotenks was considerably weaker than Super Buu in the anime (Gotenks should be less than 50% of Super Buu, not even counting the fact that he still had Piccolo, Goten and Trunks in his body), or - if they're equal - the absorption is not a simply X + Y increase, but X + Y/Z.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:46 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:It's more or less a clear increase in the manga for everyone minus Dai Kaioshin, and an iffier issue in the expanded canon. At least, the Daizenshuu makes it clear that Kid Buu isn't stronger than Buff Buu.
Buu wasn't getting stronger when he reverted to Kid Buu, he was just powering up (as in gathering Ki), as explicitly said by Goku. Kid Buu is the Full Power SSJ equivalent to Buff Buu's Grade III SSJ, making Super Buu a SSJ2. It could mean that most resources were used to power Super Buu's strength and speed, because the Kais had suppressed these attributes, but once they were taken out, Buu was allowed to balance his distribution of Ki, and eventually power up. For all intents and purposes, Kid Buu could be weaker than Buff Buu, whose bulk hinted at his strength.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by rereboy » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:54 am

Bacon Skittles wrote:Gohan was around Super Saiyan 3 Goku's strength.
That's your problem right here. (Ultimate) Gohan was much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ3 Goku was somewhat stronger than Fat Buu since Goku actually figured he could beat Fat Buu. But Goku expected Gotenks to also be able to beat Fat Buu, while he never expected Gotenks to reach SSJ3. This means that SSJ Gotenks, since no one was disappointed with his power, is about as strong as SSJ3 Goku, and that SSJ3 Gotenks is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

We also know that Super Buu is much stronger than Fat Buu, because the narrator states this, which makes perfect sense since Gotenks turns out to be much stronger than even Goku expected. Also, later on, Goku admits that if he and Vegeta simply faced off against Super Buu they would get killed, which also makes perfect sense considering that Super Buu is much stronger than Fat Buu and that Gotenks is much stronger than Goku.

From the fight between SSJ3 Gotenks and Super Buu we see that their power is similar, with Gotenks being apparently somewhat more powerful. Despite this, when Gohan arrives, it becomes clear that Gohan is even more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks, making him much stronger than Goku.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 7:58 am

Truhan wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:It's more or less a clear increase in the manga for everyone minus Dai Kaioshin, and an iffier issue in the expanded canon. At least, the Daizenshuu makes it clear that Kid Buu isn't stronger than Buff Buu.
Buu wasn't getting stronger when he reverted to Kid Buu, he was just powering up (as in gathering Ki), as explicitly said by Goku. Kid Buu is the Full Power SSJ equivalent to Buff Buu's Grade III SSJ, making Super Buu a SSJ2. It could mean that most resources were used to power Super Buu's strength and speed, because the Kais had suppressed these attributes, but once they were taken out, Buu was allowed to balance his distribution of Ki, and eventually power up. For all intents and purposes, Kid Buu could be weaker than Buff Buu, whose bulk hinted at his strength.
The whole "Buu gathering Ki" is used - explicitly - only in reference to the Super Buu/ Buff Buu transition. Given Goku and Vegeta's reaction after seeing Kid Buu, it is very likely that the ki dropped afterwards, since they quite literally sigh in relief after sweating the proverbial bullets. You may go as far as saying that Goku himself suggests that Kid Buu is weaker: his "we did it" is a reference to his plan, elaborated upon inside Buu's body, of "weakening Buu to such a degree that he and Vegeta can finish him off" (in Kid Buu's case even without Fusion).

Truthfully, if Buu was suppressing his power somehow is not shown to the reader. But if we want to venture that far, it becomes speculation: Goku is confident that he can take Kid Buu head on and it's only when he realizes that he can't use Super Saiyan 3 like he wanted that his confidence fades, not because of a "he is stronger than what we thought" scenario; which Dragon Ball always emphasizes for added drama.
To sum it up, if you want to take the manga at face value, Kid Buu is at least shown to be less of a threat than Buff Buu through the characters' reactions, and the Daizenshuu indirectly supports the notion that the South Kaioshin made Kid Buu, for all intents and purposes, more powerful.

And I'll add the usual narrative subtext: South Kaioshin is a one-panel character mentioned exclusively for his unmatched power between the Kais. So everything is at least made to purposely lead the reader to believe that Buff Buu is Kid Buu + added strenght. Anti-climatic, since Buff Buu is immediately discarded? Perhaps. But the intent is more or less evident.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:22 am

LowRyder2005 wrote:The whole "Buu gathering Ki" is used - explicitly - only in reference to the Super Buu/ Buff Buu transition. Given Goku and Vegeta's reaction after seeing Kid Buu, it is very likely that the ki dropped afterwards, since they quite literally sigh in relief after sweating the proverbial bullets. You may go as far as saying that Goku himself points out that Kid Buu is weaker: his "we did it" is a reference to his plan, elaborated upon inside Buu's body, of "weakening Buu to such a degree that he and Vegeta can finish him off" (in Kid Buu's case even without Fusion).
Why would he power down? The dialogue went from Goku noticing his Ki was increasing and then it stopped there, before they commented on his appearance, relieved that he got weaker (or less bulky). Shortly after, Kid Buu unleashes an attack that is much too powerful, because it must have been fueled with Ki that Goku didn't know existed (or stopped following).

To sum it up, if you want to take the manga at face value, Kid Buu is at least shown to be less of a threat than Buff Buu through the characters' reactions, and the Daizenshuu indirectly supports the notion that the South Kaioshin made Kid Buu, for all intents and purposes, more powerful.
The Daizenshuu makes no distinction on power and strength, but some guides have, and I'm not sure whether the manga was inconsistent about them or not. The point is, we gotta draw the line between what we're given and what we can add. I made a comparison that has its merit, and I'm gonna stick by it.
And I'll add the usual narrative subtext: South Kaioshin is a one-panel character mentioned exclusively for his unmatched power between the Kais. So everything is at least made to purposely lead the reader to believe that Buff Buu is Kid Buu + added strenght. Anti-climatic, since Buff Buu is immediately discarded? Perhaps. But the intent is more or less evident.
Perhaps it was discarded because Buu's speed or agility took a hit with South Kaioshin's strength. It wouldn't have mattered in the long run, because what finished Kid Buu was a Ki attack, and I suspect power provides a defense towards it, making it more likely for Kid Buu to use a better distribution.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:38 am

Truhan wrote:
LowRyder2005 wrote:The whole "Buu gathering Ki" is used - explicitly - only in reference to the Super Buu/ Buff Buu transition. Given Goku and Vegeta's reaction after seeing Kid Buu, it is very likely that the ki dropped afterwards, since they quite literally sigh in relief after sweating the proverbial bullets. You may go as far as saying that Goku himself points out that Kid Buu is weaker: his "we did it" is a reference to his plan, elaborated upon inside Buu's body, of "weakening Buu to such a degree that he and Vegeta can finish him off" (in Kid Buu's case even without Fusion).
Why would he power down? The dialogue went from Goku noticing his Ki was increasing and then it stopped there, before they commented on his appearance, relieved that he got weaker (or less bulky). Shortly after, Kid Buu unleashes an attack that is much too powerful, because it must have been fueled with Ki that Goku didn't even know existed.
Because the narrative implies it. Goku's comment is really hard to take in another way if not for "he's weaker now".
First off, Goku is not that stupid: putting the entire speed/power theory aside, if Kid Buu was more of a threat neither Goku nor Vegeta would act relieved.
Moreover, even after seeing Kid Buu's planet-busting feat, his power, his speed and his ability to teleport, both he and Vegeta keep downplaying him by refusing to use Fusion and taking turns instead of ganging on Buu. Not only that, Goku says that "Vegeta might not get his turn" while smirking.
Anyway, Goku is 100% sure he can beat Kid Buu alone until he realizes that he can't use his Super Saiyan 3 at full power. Compare everything to the same Goku and Vegeta preparing themselves to face Super Buu: Goku didn't think that even "the two" of them could beat Super Buu, was shaking in his boots and wanted to use Fusion or Potara no matter what.
Buff Buu? He is stronger than Super Buu. As you can see, you have to create more and more - technically arbitrary - conditions to make Kid Buu appear stronger than Buff Buu.
The Daizenshuu makes no distinction on power and strength, but some guides have, and I'm not sure whether the manga was inconsistent about them or not. The point is, we gotta draw the line between what we're given and what we can add. I made a comparison that has its merit, and I'm gonna stick by it.

That doesn't change nor disprove my point. You are free to create whatever framework or theory you fancy, you have every right to: I like to think that Roshi could beat Piccolo Daimao and didn't because he knew about Daimao's and Kami's relationship and didn't use his buff form. However, I don't "stick by it" if I'm discussing with someone who is simply stating something like "Daimao appears stronger than Roshi in the manga", or even a "Daimao is stronger than Roshi in the manga". Because that's what we are at least lead to believe.
Perhaps it was discarded because Buu's speed or agility took a hit with South Kaioshin's strength. It wouldn't have mattered in the long run, because what finished Kid Buu was a Ki attack, and I suspect power provides a defense towards it, making it more likely for Kid Buu to use a better distribution.
Possible, but never explicitly stated or implied by anything.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Thu Nov 05, 2015 9:25 am

Ok, it has to be someone else to draw the line in this discussion, because we're going towards character psichology and guessing again. The problem is that my theory is being discarded with assumptions, so if it must be opinion vs opinion, no one has gotten the upper hand yet. I'll go back to my example:

Super Buu - SSJ2
Buff Buu - GIII SSJ
Kid Buu - FP SSJ

Since SSJ2 is greater than both Grade III and Full Power SSJ, coming at a cost of energy or power (which can be charged later), when Super Buu reverts to Buff Buu, his Ki increases and his strength decreases. When Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, his power increases again, and his strength decreases once more. Power wise, Kid Buu > Buff Buu > Super Buu, while in terms of strength, Super Buu > Buff Buu > Kid Buu.

Now, before anyone says that Grade III is weaker than Full Power, consider that Cell used his own version of it and got bulky, after he had already powered up to his fullest. It was his last resort, costing him Ki and speed, of which SSJ2 made short work, anyway.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:27 pm

Truhan wrote:Ok, it has to be someone else to draw the line in this discussion, because we're going towards character psichology and guessing again. The problem is that my theory is being discarded with assumptions, so if it must be opinion vs opinion, no one has gotten the upper hand yet. I'll go back to my example:

Super Buu - SSJ2
Buff Buu - GIII SSJ
Kid Buu - FP SSJ

Since SSJ2 is greater than both Grade III and Full Power SSJ, coming at a cost of energy or power (which can be charged later), when Super Buu reverts to Buff Buu, his Ki increases and his strength decreases. When Buff Buu reverts to Kid Buu, his power increases again, and his strength decreases once more. Power wise, Kid Buu > Buff Buu > Super Buu, while in terms of strength, Super Buu > Buff Buu > Kid Buu.

Now, before anyone says that Grade III is weaker than Full Power, consider that Cell used his own version of it and got bulky, after he had already powered up to his fullest. It was his last resort, costing him Ki and speed, of which SSJ2 made short work, anyway.
Ki amplifies the user's strength. So why would Buff Boo's strength be lower than Evil Boo's when he is stated to have more Ki? In fact everything is amplified by Ki usually. Akira Toriyama pretty much states this in an interview where he says there are limits to physical training and to surpass this a character must increase their Ki. Now we know you can have the negative effect of speed loss when you create more muscle mass but apart from that there are no negatives to increasing your Ki or muscle mass. Gohan at the Cell Games showed that if you increase your Ki without gaining much muscle mass you amplify all your stats ridiculously. So in terms of being better in every area Evil Boo would be the best. In terms of strength then Buff Boo would be best and the only advantage Pure Boo would have is probably being faster than Buff Boo.

Also I would like to point out that none of Boo's forms are energy sustained transformations. That would be really weird. I mean he absorbs Gohan and his Ki increases. That doesn't start munching away at his energy. Unless it's in the case of him using an individual who is using an energy draining transformation like Gotenks. But even then that energy drain is applied to Gotenks. Not Boo. So energy/power wise both Buff and Evil Boo should be superior to Pure Boo.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Jeff Styles » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:17 am

Only Daio Kaioshin weaker, well rather "restricted" Pure Boo.Absorbing South Kaioshin increase his power.Once Good Boo's pod was taken out, Evil Boo transform backward.From Evil to Buff then to his original form.Remember South and Daio was absorbs so long that they became a part of Fat Boo.Even when the evil side was separate from him.
Buff Boo>Evil Boo>Pure Boo.

Goku says he could probably beaten Fat Boo.He trust Gotenks to handle Boo.It was unclear if Gotenks could until he fly off again to fight Fat Boo, Piccolo's only concern is SSJ Gotenks only have a minute left until he defuse.
SSJ3 Goku~SSJ Gotenks(pre ROSAT)>Fat Boo

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 6:19 am

Hitiro wrote:Ki amplifies the user's strength. So why would Buff Boo's strength be lower than Evil Boo's when he is stated to have more Ki? In fact everything is amplified by Ki usually. Akira Toriyama pretty much states this in an interview where he says there are limits to physical training and to surpass this a character must increase their Ki. Now we know you can have the negative effect of speed loss when you create more muscle mass but apart from that there are no negatives to increasing your Ki or muscle mass. Gohan at the Cell Games showed that if you increase your Ki without gaining much muscle mass you amplify all your stats ridiculously. So in terms of being better in every area Evil Boo would be the best. In terms of strength then Buff Boo would be best and the only advantage Pure Boo would have is probably being faster than Buff Boo.

Also I would like to point out that none of Boo's forms are energy sustained transformations. That would be really weird. I mean he absorbs Gohan and his Ki increases. That doesn't start munching away at his energy. Unless it's in the case of him using an individual who is using an energy draining transformation like Gotenks. But even then that energy drain is applied to Gotenks. Not Boo. So energy/power wise both Buff and Evil Boo should be superior to Pure Boo.
You're not contradicting me, but misusing Akira Toriyama's own statements. Ki amplifies the user's strength through consumption, hence why it lowers after a transformation. Here are a few examples: Vegeta lost a huge amount of power to create an artificial moon, but then his strength increased 10 fold as an Oozaru; SSJ3 Goku increased all of his attributes evenly, which took a huge amount of Ki, hence why he needed to charge it to go Full Power; Piccolo charged it as well for a Ki attack against Raditz, but that power wouldn't allow him to punch through him, because his strength didn't increase.

You said it yourself, through Akira Toriyama's words, that characters' attributes can reach a certain limit, to the point where power gives you an advantage over someone else, be it through Ki attacks, regenerating or teleporting (examples of power wasting moves). As for Buu, and to finally answer this thread, he doesn't have transformations except through absorptions, and they can lower his power as well:

Kid Buu is at full power. He absorbs South Kaioshin and lowers his power by fueling his strength. Then he absorbs Dai Kaioshin, who suppresses his strength and lowers his power again.
Fat Buu creates Evil Buu through his anger, and turns into Good Buu (which means that they could have one Kai each). Evil Buu eats Good Buu and multiplies his strength into Super Buu's, because two Buu bodies have joined. His power is lower than Buff Buu's though.
Good Buu is taken from Super Buu's stomach, and he reverts into Buff Buu first, lowering his strength, but increasing his power. Buff Buu then powers up some more by releasing South Kai (and putting him in Good Buu's body), and decreases his strength.

Last, but not the least, I don't know why Buff Buu would be the best at something if he went unused, of all transformations that Buu has.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by LowRyder2005 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 7:09 am

You're not contradicting me, but misusing Akira Toriyama's own statements. Ki amplifies the user's strength through consumption, hence why it lowers after a transformation. Here are a few examples: Vegeta lost a huge amount of power to create an artificial moon, but then his strength increased 10 fold as an Oozaru; SSJ3 Goku increased all of his attributes evenly, which took a huge amount of Ki, hence why he needed to charge it to go Full Power; Piccolo charged it as well for a Ki attack against Raditz, but that power wouldn't allow him to punch through him, because his strength didn't increase.
What he's trying to say is that according to Toriyama you can get up to a certain physical limit and then, to further boost your strenght, you need more ki. Since Buu is a top tier in the Dragon Ball series, he should reasonably be way past that limit.
Moreover: throughout DBZ it's established - in general - that when you lower your ki you are vulnerable and physically weaker (in the anime, Goku can be hurt by rocks; if you don't like anime, you can refer to Resurrection F for a similar scenrio). So it works both ways. He has a fairly compelling point.
It's indeed true that we have at least a couple of examples in the Cell Saga of "increased muscle mass = less viability in battle", but I feel pressed to add they are immediately referenced as less viable, while we don't have the time to draw conclusions on Buff Buu. We only see that Goku and Vegeta are extremely worried: Occam's Razor would dictate that the most probable explanation is simply Buff Buu, as a "whole package" to reference your criteria, being on a whole nother realm compared to the "already-stronger-than-Goku" Super Buu.
and they can lower his power as well:
Okay, but only the Dai Kaioshin is said to have weakened him for certain, so you may as well say that "for what we are shown, it's getting a heart that weakens Buu". The only one who gives a heart to Buu is the Dai Kaio according to both manga and Daizenshuu. Nothing is ever stated for South Kaioshin, who is, however, mentioned for his incredible strenght. Try to project yourself inside the author's mind: it makes little sense, at least from a narrative point-of-view, to introduce a one-panel character X for his "incredible power" to suggest that "character X + character Y is weaker than character Y". :)
Last, but not the least, I don't know why Buff Buu would be the best at something if he went unused, of all transformations that Buu has.
I'd say that, simply, it's a stock example of Chekov's Gunman.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... hovsGunman

This is what that chapter establishes:
- Super Buu is already stronger than Goku.
- Buff Buu, an enemy even stronger than Super Buu appears -> spannung.
- An enemy weaker than Buff Buu appears; after being ridiculed, the enemy proves to be even more dangerous than the ones before because of X. -> Chekov's gunman in act.

It would be different (like I said before, anti-climatic) if Buff Buu was "the biggest threat", but there is room to doubt this. Although we are not shown his exact characteristics he could (or rather should) be, quite possibly, at least not as totally insane as the original Buu: after all, if you want to go on with the inductive reasoning, Buu gets increasingly intelligent even with the Dai Kaioshin (see how he's able to speak and generally understand human concepts) along every other absorption. People like to disregard the Buu Saga as "bad writing", but I think it's a creative approach compared to the usual "strongest enemy = biggest threat".
One of the motifs is the duality of human nature and how it affects people (and in Majin Buu's case his - destructive - power), reflected by Vegeta's heel-face-turn, Goku's attitude towards his planet - choosing to do an "evil act" (leaving innocents to die) or rather, necessary evil, to make his sons feel responsible about protecting the planet - and Majin Buu himself.
It's poignant that the last enemy is not necessarily the strongest (he is at his strongest with at least a trace of a heart), but simply the most evil. Which, according to Toriyama, is "amorphous", "psychotic", "child-like" and without any rationale.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 8:35 am

I didn't know you were so resourceful when it came to these theories. Nice! I'll consider another stance then. I'll consider Buff Buu to be equal in terms of Strength to Super Buu, and equal to Kid Buu in terms of Power, with the following numbers:

EDIT: I'll work on POWER and STRENGTH numbers later.
Last edited by Truhan on Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by dbgtFO » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:11 am

I'd say Buu just adds the power of the ones he absorb to his own, the only exception being Great Kaioshin.
If you follow all the implications about Gotenks' supposed power(ie. SS Gotenks ~ SS3 Goku) and you believe Fat Buu is the combined power of South Kaioshin and Great Kaioshin with Buu properties thrown in for good measure, you are going to have a big problem, as South Kaioshin would logically have to be on Super Gotenks' level, but Fat Buu would end up on Super Buu's level, which he obviously isn't.

So two solutions:

1. Either South Kaioshin's power is still suppressed by Great Kaioshin's presence in Fat Buu or
2. South Kaioshin, Super Buu, Super Gotenks, Buff Buu and Ultimate Gohan aren't multiple times stronger than Goku and Kid Buu.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by GTX » Fri Nov 06, 2015 9:39 am

Bacon Skittles wrote:So I'm confused. Super Buu absorbed Piccolo, Gotenks, and Gohan. Gohan was around Super Saiyan 3 Goku's strength. Does the strength of those that Buu absorbs add onto his power? If so shouldn't Buu be as power as two Super Saiyan 3's combined? Unless however he only gains a fraction of the strength from those he absorbs.
It is still not clear because bhu cannot absorb vegito.
The question has been asked by you 10000000000 times and we have become very efficient.
I don't care about non canon stuffs like game, guide book, movie, etc
Spare the trouble because GT is CANON
Be quick and be done with it
inactive :P

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 12:36 pm

I'll just leave a Buu absorption formula here for future reference:

Buu's power * Victim's power / 10 ** (N - 1), where N is the number of digits in Buu's power.
Last edited by Truhan on Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Hitiro » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:16 pm

Truhan wrote:You're not contradicting me, but misusing Akira Toriyama's own statements. Ki amplifies the user's strength through consumption, hence why it lowers after a transformation. Here are a few examples: Vegeta lost a huge amount of power to create an artificial moon, but then his strength increased 10 fold as an Oozaru; SSJ3 Goku increased all of his attributes evenly, which took a huge amount of Ki, hence why he needed to charge it to go Full Power; Piccolo charged it as well for a Ki attack against Raditz, but that power wouldn't allow him to punch through him, because his strength didn't increase.
This is not correct otherwise how would any character be able to gather Ki? Only transformations like the SSJ transformations consume Ki to be maintained but they have the added effect of amplifying what the users Ki was. You can check nearly all the battles before it reaches battles with SSJ transformations. The characters Ki does not change unless they exhaust it through combat, for example using a Kamehameha, or fighting for an extended period of time. Yes, Vegeta lost a decent amount creating an artificial moon. But he was parting with that Ki to create the technique. If a character is fighting and they aren't using any Ki based techniques they can maintain maximum levels of Ki provided they don't take damage or are using transformations that rely on energy for a decent period of time. For instance, it would make no sense for Goku to walk around with 100% of his Ki and do his daily routine if that were the case because he would be burning through his Ki supply. In fact, he and the others may as well take Senzu beans before every fight because according to you just by having Ki it is consumed to amplify the users strength. Ki naturally amplifies the users strength whether Goku and the others like it or not. That is why when Goku taps Chi Chi he almost kills her. The only way to reign in that strength amplification is to suppress their Ki. And they do this because A) It leaves the opponent unware of how strong you are. and B) If you do need to actually expend energy in a fight you can use the bare minimum to fight someone weaker than you. And for Piccolo this isn't the case either. Ki techniques have been shown to amplify Ki anyway. That's been a staple for the universe for a long time. It allows characters who are weaker to take on much stronger opponents. That is why Piccolo had a battle power of 1,330 when he fired the attack as opposed to his bodies 408. If Piccolo could get his battle power up to 1,330 he could punch through Raditz as Raditz was only supposed to be 1,200.
Truhan wrote:Kid Buu is at full power. He absorbs South Kaioshin and lowers his power by fueling his strength. Then he absorbs Dai Kaioshin, who suppresses his strength and lowers his power again.
This isn't the case though because his Ki is stated to have increased when he became Buff Boo. So no, when he absorbed South Kaioshin it didn't lower his power. Ki naturally enhances a persons strength it doesn't fuel it. It's an innate quality of having Ki. Thus, the higher your Ki is the stronger you will be. Having more Ki does not effect you negatively otherwise what would be the point in increasing your Ki?
Truhan wrote:Last, but not the least, I don't know why Buff Buu would be the best at something if he went unused, of all transformations that Buu has.
Well as I said he would be the strongest but his muscle mass would slow him down. Look at Trunks. He had the SSJG3 form which made him stronger than Cell and Cell pretty much stated Trunks could win if it weren't for the fact that he couldn't hit Cell. It went unused because all we would have seen is Boo not be that fast as the extra muscle mass would have been traded for speed. Or it is possible that Buff Boo was unused because Goku and Vegeta wouldn't be able to beat a character more powerful than Evil Boo who Goku already said they couldn't beat. Thus Akira Toriyama weakened Boo so that Goku could manage a victory. Which is why Goku said "We did it!" when Boo turned into Pure Boo. It was their plan inside Boo to weaken him. So that is the only thing he could mean by that statement. Barring a random increase in Goku's power to be able to fight Buff Boo there is no need for a character more powerful than one Goku already can't beat.

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Truhan » Fri Nov 06, 2015 4:41 pm

I'm not going to read through all that. Learn to be straighter to the point. In the mean time, I have made up my mind. Buff Buu was only gathering Ki, and losing his suppression to become Kid Buu. Super Buu > Kid Buu > Buff Buu, because Super Buu is the concatenation of two Buus with one Kai each, instead of having both suppressing one body. Therefore:

Super Buu - 640
Kid Buu - 400
Evil/Buff Buu - 320
Good Buu - 200
Fat Buu - 160

South Kai - 80
Dai Kai - 50

It works beautifully, trust me :wink:

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Re: Buu's power when he absorbs somebody

Post by Darkprince410 » Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:18 pm

Truhan wrote:I'm not going to read through all that. Learn to be straighter to the point. In the mean time, I have made up my mind. Buff Buu was only gathering Ki, and losing his suppression to become Kid Buu. Super Buu > Kid Buu > Buff Buu, because Super Buu is the concatenation of two Buus with one Kai each, instead of having both suppressing one body. Therefore:

Super Buu - 640
Kid Buu - 400
Evil/Buff Buu - 320
Good Buu - 200
Fat Buu - 160

South Kai - 80
Dai Kai - 50

It works beautifully, trust me :wink:
No, that doesn't work at all though given everything that's established and shown within the manga. We're initially told through Rou Kaioushin that every time Buu absorbs someone, it results in a form change and an increase in strength. Kibitoshin does not counter or correct this at all, so, at the time that he states this, that's a straight fact that has no counters. Then, come Kibitoshin's explanation of Buu's past, he specifically indicates that Dai Kaioushin affected Buu in a way differently than normal, breezing past the explanation of South Kaioushin as if nothing about it was different than usual. Therefore, given that information, in combination with what we're shown, South Kaioushin Buu cannot be weaker than Pure Buu or Evil Buu.

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