Fights (Aspects, Comparisons, Etc.)

[Vhanos]

There is something I'm getting sick and tired of hearing. People say that in DBZ they talk so much and take so long to fight. They so how shows like Naruto and Yu Yu Hakusho and maybe Bleach have better fights. Let elaborate more on this. DBZ gets criticised by so many people for what it does but I see the same thing with the others. They say that those shows have better fights because they have more techniques or that you can see the fighting. They say how those shows and others besides the ones I mentioned have better fights because they're more about skill and that DBZ fights are all about strength. I hate those. Those who say it has poor choreography I really disagree with because if anything it has good choreography (real good one). I also thought the fighting in the original DB was good too.

Well I just want to say that DBZ has the best fights. It might not have great pacing and the fights may drag/take too long. But I see something that it does do well because of it. There is more I want to say and get at but I don't want to get this too wordy, at least not just yet. I'll get to more afterwards.



So does anybody feel the same? Why do these people ignore the good aspects of the fighting in DBZ?

[Cyberman]

They consider it too simple. At least from people I've talked to. I just like the DBZ fights because it's such a rush just watching.

[lost in thought]

This can be simplified to group perspective. It was once cool to enjoy this show, but when Naruto came around, it became cool to hate it and enjoy Naruto; then, as is the trend, Naruto was replaced by Bleach.

This sort of hierarchy is prevelant in American perceptions of anime. It becomes crap, and everyone follows along like sheep. There is no deeper meaning, or explanation to this than that.

Hierarchy syndrome, propegated by people who refer to themselves as Otaku, without any idea of the etymology of the term.

[Smooth Criminal]

The fights in the series became more and more lame as the series went on.

They went from a highly-choreographed style where you would actually be able to see every punch and kick (in Dragonball), to a 2-frame cop out, where the opponents would just be floating in the air with their arms and legs flailing about at light speed. That, to me, is boring.

Also, as time went on there became an increasing dependence on beams, which was also boring to watch. For example, how many times did we have to sit through a character going ballistic on another by throwing 100s of energy blasts at them, only to see the other standing there unscathed once the smoke cleared? Shit like that pisses me off.

[Eat Snow]

The fights in the series became more and more lame as the series went on.

They went from a highly-choreographed style where you would actually be able to see every punch and kick (in Dragonball), to a 2-frame cop out, where the opponents would just be floating in the air with their arms and legs flailing about at light speed. That, to me, is boring.

Also, as time went on there became an increasing dependence on beams, which was also boring to watch. For example, how many times did we have to sit through a character going ballistic on another by throwing 100s of energy blasts at them, only to see the other standing there unscathed once the smoke cleared? Shit like that pisses me off.

I pretty much agree with everything you typed.

[Cyberman]

From my perspective, I could care less about the realism of fights. Since when is realism a factor in DB?

[lost in thought]

The fights in the series became more and more lame as the series went on.

They went from a highly-choreographed style where you would actually be able to see every punch and kick (in Dragonball), to a 2-frame cop out, where the opponents would just be floating in the air with their arms and legs flailing about at light speed. That, to me, is boring.

Also, as time went on there became an increasing dependence on beams, which was also boring to watch. For example, how many times did we have to sit through a character going ballistic on another by throwing 100s of energy blasts at them, only to see the other standing there unscathed once the smoke cleared? Shit like that pisses me off.

That's rather redundant, you know that, right?

Of course the show went from choreography, to what it is now, because it's an attempted conveyance at increasing power, which is something that is difficult when you're "making up" power, that never exists in reality; further when a character is going to fight with someone they don't know, what could possibly make a battle choreographed, in the sense that they could do a series of impressive moves, when they've got to counter-attack an opponent that wants them dead, and not one that wants to knock them out of the ring?
Of course it will lack the finess, because of the intended gravity of the situation. You're taking a situation that began as a performance of skill, and trying to compare it with a situation that is about the safety and well being of the planet the characters are defending; in that, there is a huge difference in the way a fight should be handled, and further along with increases in the characters over-all power, and abilities, you're going to get a distinct lack of it, as well as a more "brute force" aspect, through whatever means possible.

In such a situation, you're going to use whatever is at your disposal to put an end to it, and not think of how "impressive" it's going to look, and least of which how many neat combinations of attacks you can pull off. Hand to hand combat would/should be the last thing on either fighters mind, since they're trying to kill the other, and not make a spectacular viewing experience for a so-called audience. The way battles are played out, with a stake to worry about has a distinct ambience, and tone to them, that tries to set the mood in a semi-logical way.

[ngnikolaos]

Yeah, but the battles in the Matrix for example, are done with that in mind, the safety of the planet that is, yet they are enjoyable and impressive to the eye.

I think that the flurry of punches and kicks is a nice touch, as long as there are slow close-ups of the hits that actually damage the opponent.
And yeah, the I-remain-untouched-by-you-even-though-you-fired-your-greatest-blast does get really unimpressive after a while.

I mean, yeah, Kuririn's Kienzan bounced off Cell's neck. Wah wah boo hoo. Name an enemy who hasn't done so after Freeza and Nappa. -_-

[lost in thought]

Yeah, but the battles in the Matrix for example, are done with that in mind, the safety of the planet that is, yet they are enjoyable and impressive to the eye.

I think that the flurry of punches and kicks is a nice touch, as long as there are slow close-ups of the hits that actually damage the opponent.
And yeah, the I-remain-untouched-by-you-even-though-you-fired-your-greatest-blast does get really unimpressive after a while.

I mean, yeah, Kuririn's Kienzan bounced off Cell's neck. Wah wah boo hoo. Name an enemy who hasn't done so after Freeza and Nappa. -_-

It's still difficult to convey power, and remember how old this series is. You've got to remember that part, it wasn't made last year with the highest and most advanced technology to provide the best looking animation; oh no, it was made in the 80's, when they were still using magnetically written tape recordings to do it, and animated frame by frame.

You've got to recognize the quality of the fights [ahead of their time, in the sort of scale that ensued] and the time period it was produced in, further the artistic style that the animators were trying to replicate. The tail end of the show did have a dramatic increase in quality, but that was still just the early 90's, which didn't lend a whole lot more to animation, and further, that they still tried to remain to the same precedence set down.

The original Matrix was released in 1999, and the sequals in 2003; while DragonBall began in 1986, and Z in 1989. With this in mind, you have to consider what they could do, and further not compare it to something made several years later.

[Duo]

I never much cared for how a lot of the battles were paced in the Anime, whether it be Filler or techonological lackings or lack of creativity.

I guess it's another reason why I adore the Manga.

[DBZ MAN]

That's rather redundant, you know that, right?

Of course the show went from choreography, to what it is now, because it's an attempted conveyance at increasing power, which is something that is difficult when you're "making up" power, that never exists in reality; further when a character is going to fight with someone they don't know, what could possibly make a battle choreographed, in the sense that they could do a series of impressive moves, when they've got to counter-attack an opponent that wants them dead, and not one that wants to knock them out of the ring?
Of course it will lack the finess, because of the intended gravity of the situation. You're taking a situation that began as a performance of skill, and trying to compare it with a situation that is about the safety and well being of the planet the characters are defending; in that, there is a huge difference in the way a fight should be handled, and further along with increases in the characters over-all power, and abilities, you're going to get a distinct lack of it, as well as a more "brute force" aspect, through whatever means possible.

In such a situation, you're going to use whatever is at your disposal to put an end to it, and not think of how "impressive" it's going to look, and least of which how many neat combinations of attacks you can pull off. Hand to hand combat would/should be the last thing on either fighters mind, since they're trying to kill the other, and not make a spectacular viewing experience for a so-called audience. The way battles are played out, with a stake to worry about has a distinct ambience, and tone to them, that tries to set the mood in a semi-logical way.

Agreed. Sorry thats all I Have to say but everything Lost in thought has typed, I pretty much agreed in.

[ngnikolaos]

I do not condemn DBZ's fighting style. The flurry of punches and kicks simply symbolizes the fact that the characters fight at super-sonic speed, making them blurry to the eye. Nothing wrong with that.

In TODAY's standards it would be really nice to see the fights just like the one in the new Goku vs Freeza footage our fellow member was kind enough to share. More animation, more close-ups and better drawings would be excellent. In fact, I think I'll make a topic about this re-make idea...

Oh, and as for the talking before the fights, I agree with the flamers. It is painfully obvious after the 22nd Budokai that the fillers are incredibly annoying to the not-die-hard-fan. I mean, there were episodes where me and my brother would PRAY that we would see some action in this week's episode, or some storyline continuation, rather than Bulma bitching, birds flying, earthquakes rumbling, and Lunch smelling lillies.

[Sebastian (SB)]

Unlike some (or most) people, I actually like most of the dialogue that intervenes between the fight because it brings some character development relavent to the plot for the time being. I can understand that it does take too long after a while, but I guess that's what happens when you release a anime series weekly alongside releasing the weekly manga.

[_Jrinu_]

I do hear this all the time though from my friends. They roll their eyes when I say I like DBZ, and although I disagree with what they say, I have to bring up a particular conversation with a friend of mine named Marc which was actually pretty funny.

(In Borders looking at manga)

Marc: Whatcha' reading?
Me: DBZ
Marc: Pssh... Of course.
Me: Man, I don't get it. What don't you like about DBZ?
Marc: I used to be into it a lot, but then I realized how it's always like "I must power up!" "But I can't power up!" "But I have to power up!" "Give me your energy so I can power up!" "HAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!" "HAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!"
"Allright, now I'm powered up!"

It made me laugh.

[masenko]

The fights in DragonBall and very early DBZ were the best as far as animation and fluidity. It's much more entertaining to watch 3 punches and 1 kick in a Tenkaichi Budokai of DB than 4 big bursts of light in the air ofthe Cell Games. I remember watching it with my friend and he was like "what the hell was that?" It felt cheap and it takes away from the action as you have no idea what is actually going on. The beauty of being an animated T.V. show is to be able to show inhumane things instead of having to hide behind cheap tricks. Too bad.

[Kendamu]

I hear people saying that Dragonball Z should be Drag-On Ball Z and praise Naruto and such, but in all reality there are very few awesome fights in Naruto that I can stand watching. Those few good fights were non-stop and only took up and episode or three. The major two I'm thinking of haven't even happened in the English anime yet.

That's why usually with Dragonball and Naruto I take advantage of the manga more often than the anime. The battles go as fast or as slow as I can read them.

[Mystic Kami]

That's why usually with Dragonball and Naruto I take advantage of the manga more often than the anime. The battles go as fast or as slow as I can read them.

This is my entire point of view on this situation.

[Nekoni]

It's true that western, not just american perferences of anime go on in 'fashions'. A bit of a shame, but at-least that means more merchandise for the actual otakus. (though the idiocy of it all can be unbearable sometimes..)

If it's any consolation, it is never the ones that follow that excel in life, but the ones that lead.

I liked DBZ's pace of battles. It wasn't actually that slow; rather there were a LOT of plot-twists and characters to fight.

Choreogragphy...? Actually I was impressed. It's good; and for such a long-running series it's -ecellent-. It's the 'short' fights that really bug me. I mean, recently I was watching SonicX. You'd go, 'oh yay, there's going to be a really big fight-' and then the disapointment sets in as it lasts a mere ten seconds.

I tell you what, I am NOT limiting my dose of shirtless Goku's to ten seconds!

The Matrix's fight scenes were impressive; but the Matrix had 4 hours of fighting to do, as compared with... *takes a moment to work it out* roughly 166 hours of fighting, 20 years later.

Ki blasts aren't low-class choreography, they just add a 'long distance' aspect. Think of them in the sense of gun-shots or phazer-blasts in sci-fi... I mean, should we drop guns from cop shows and make them fight slow-motion karate instead to up the quality?

[Mr. Announcer]

The only time I really got the sense that a fight was getting too drawn out was Freeza vs. Gokuh which took 19 episodes (forbidden!!). I will say that the battles had better strategies and techniques early on but as the series progressed the fighting became more plot based, therefore putting on a good show was actually less important than who was beating who. There was also the whole ki blast light show thing but that just sounds like a crappy argument....

Overall I think the point at which we got the best balance of engaging plot and battle technique was late Dragonball and early DBZ, my favorite parts of the series.

[Thanos6]

Personally, I say the 22nd Budokai was the absolute pinnacle of the series in terms of fights.