Do you wish the multiplier system was never introduced?

[Captain Strawberry]

Do you wish for example the 50x multiplier was never introduced? I think it wasn't than during the android arc (17 & 18), it would have been more beneficial since these two were immensely stronger than a SSJ.

[Kaboom]

Nah, it's fine. The manga itself already introduced "multipliers" for power via the Kaio-Ken, so being granted similar uniform boosts for things like Super Saiyan is a logical next step. Plus, it's nice to have something universally applicable for the sake of easy conversation.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Power level maths are the single least interesting thing about the series to me(along with Broly), so I'd be fine without it. But it's not very invasive in the series, so I don't mind having it there for those who are into it.

[emi_b7]

I think it's dumb because the characters power level is whatever the plot needs them to be, and it has been that way since the beginning, so this multipliers highlight the inconcistencies DB has on that font. I wouldn't say I wish it wasn't introduced, but I don't really take it so seriously.

[ParkerAL]

Dear God, yes. Multipliers turned the series' power inflation into an astronomical farce.

[ABED]

I don't recall it ever explicitly stated that Super Saiyan was a multiplier.

[Lord Beerus]

I don't recall it ever explicitly stated that Super Saiyan was a multiplier.

Not in the manga, but I think OP is referring to guidebooks where it's stated that Super Saiyan is 50x multiplier of strength from the base form.

[Gaffer Tape]

You know, I don't think I was ever aware of these multipliers until BoG came out, and you had all these people complaining about Vegeta's Blooma freakout and how it was impossible. So a charming scene that was emotionally satisfying was rendered invalid... because of fake math.

Ugh. Yes, I'd rather such things be done away with.

[apex_pretador]

I think it fits well here:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P8.2-4

No.19: “Seems you’ve been watching things all along, but you missed hearing the most important thing. Vegeta, we already know all about your battle techniques.”

Vegeta: “Even so, you looked pretty surprised when Kakarot became a Super Saiyan…In other words, your data from the battle with Freeza up to the present is estimated…We Saiyans can’t be understood just by calculations…”

[LightBing]

Yes I do. It doesn't make people think, it blocks imagination. For example in the Super power thread, I see people jumping through hoops to try and fit the multipliers.
Rationalizing it in Universe, it's pretty ridiculous. A small deviation in base would create huge gaps between characters, yet we just have to assume they have almost identical bases. Plus Goku was pretty straight forward about the multiplication of the Kaioken, nothing was said about SSJ.
If Vegeta was aware of it, I would think he would be walking around with a calculator in hand. He's the one who's always using the power level term in the series, even when scouters weren't around anymore.

Like emi_b7 said, the power only fits the plot. That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza. Subsequent transformations don't have to follow it.
Besides the manga threw that idea out the window, when SSJ mastery was introduced and debatable, when they showed a SSJ Kid Trunks fighting Future Gohan who was in base.

I think it fits well here:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P8.2-4

No.19: “Seems you’ve been watching things all along, but you missed hearing the most important thing. Vegeta, we already know all about your battle techniques.”

Vegeta: “Even so, you looked pretty surprised when Kakarot became a Super Saiyan…In other words, your data from the battle with Freeza up to the present is estimated…We Saiyans can’t be understood just by calculations…”

I think you're misunderstanding the quote, Vegeta is arguing that whatever prediction based on numbers they did, it doesn't work with Saiyans. Because they're special or like Vegeta would say: "The greatest warrior race in the Universe that can't be comprehended or predicted by simple math!"

[apex_pretador]

That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza.

it wasn't.
A 25x works perfectly fine for me and still beats freeza comfortably.

[Desassina]

Do you think Goku combined Kaioken (2x) with SSJ, or did he just call a Super Kaioken that is above the previous multipliers?

[rereboy]

That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza.

it wasn't.
A 25x works perfectly fine for me and still beats freeza comfortably.

How? 20x Kaioken Goku was only able to match 50% Freeza.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

You know, I don't think I was ever aware of these multipliers until BoG came out, and you had all these people complaining about Vegeta's Blooma freakout and how it was impossible. So a charming scene that was emotionally satisfying was rendered invalid... because of fake math.

Ugh. Yes, I'd rather such things be done away with.

And except for whatever fun people get from doing the calculations themselves ( Which I understand, I like calcs for other series, just not Dragonball) The maths have no value at all. You can make Power charts until the cows come home and leave again, but it won't change how Toei handles the series whatsoever, and it hardly ever actually convinces other fans to change what they think.

[apex_pretador]

That's why the first 50x is correct, because it was needed for Goku to defeat Freeza.

it wasn't.
A 25x works perfectly fine for me and still beats freeza comfortably.

How? 20x Kaioken Goku was only able to match 50% Freeza.

In millions:


Freeza:
50% - 60
Post KHH - 52
Post GD - 41
Beatdown from goku - 37
70% - 61
100% - 97 (rapidly dropping)
Tired - 82
Tired + Beatdown - 70
Cut in half - 10

Goku:

Base - 3.1
x20 KK - 62
KHH - 65
post KHH (base) - 2
GD - 75
post GD - 0.2
Super Saiyan (+Zenkai) - 100 + Rage
Base (Zenkai) - 4

KEY:
KK = Kaio-ken
KHH - KameHameHa
GD - genki dama

Do you think Goku combined Kaioken (2x) with SSJ, or did he just call a Super Kaioken that is above the previous multipliers?

I think it is Kaioken + Super Saiyan


KK x10 + FPSS (50x) = base x 60 = super KK

[Tyro]

You know, I don't think I was ever aware of these multipliers until BoG came out, and you had all these people complaining about Vegeta's Blooma freakout and how it was impossible. So a charming scene that was emotionally satisfying was rendered invalid... because of fake math.

Ugh. Yes, I'd rather such things be done away with.

That's not true and you know it, because what you just said has nothing to do with multipliers. (Unless, of course, you're saying that you don't care for the SS3 = 4x SS2 stuff.) What this argument has always been about is that Vegeta got a power up that is almost completely uniquely Gohan's. There's Gohan, and then there's Boo and Oob. End of list. Nobody else in the original series has come close, or even started to come close, to getting these amazing, huge, phenomenal, and dare I say it, multiplicative power ups when they get mad.

That's what people have a problem with. Not the multiplier.

[rereboy]

In millions:


Freeza:
50% - 60
Post KHH - 52
Post GD - 41
Beatdown from goku - 37
70% - 61
100% - 97 (rapidly dropping)
Tired - 82
Tired + Beatdown - 70
Cut in half - 10

Goku:

Base - 3.1
x20 KK - 62
KHH - 65
post KHH (base) - 2
GD - 75
post GD - 0.2
Super Saiyan (+Zenkai) - 100 + Rage
Base (Zenkai) - 4

KEY:
KK = Kaio-ken
KHH - KameHameHa
GD - genki dama

Ok, so you assume different drops in power due to injury and such between both of them to make it work. But, honestly, there's nothing saying that their power didn't drop (proportionately) the same and if we have to assume one of them dropped more than the other, Goku is the one who appears to have dropped more, since he can barely more before getting SSJ.

[apex_pretador]

Goku is the one who appears to have dropped more, since he can barely more before getting SSJ.

After going SS, he turns to base, and can easily fly, dodge attacks etc.
before going SS, he was able to barely move.

See the difference? Seems like the transformation acted like a refill to his power.

[Gaffer Tape]

That's not true and you know it, because what you just said has nothing to do with multipliers. (Unless, of course, you're saying that you don't care for the SS3 = 4x SS2 stuff.) What this argument has always been about is that Vegeta got a power up that is almost completely uniquely Gohan's. There's Gohan, and then there's Boo and Oob. End of list. Nobody else in the original series has come close, or even started to come close, to getting these amazing, huge, phenomenal, and dare I say it, multiplicative power ups when they get mad.

That's what people have a problem with. Not the multiplier.

With all due respect, if it was not true, and I knew it, I wouldn't have said it, thank you very much. And while Gohan's supposed uniqueness at getting stronger when he's angry is a sticking point for a lot of people (which I also don't agree with, I might add, since even *I* get stronger when I'm mad), I've seen just as many complain because, "There's no way Vegeta could ever be as strong as SSJ3 Goku, not even for a few seconds, because MUH MULTIPLIERS!" Like I said, I was not even aware the multipliers were even a thing until I saw people complaining about this scene. You even mention it in your post. So I'm not sure what the animosity and accusations of lying are when you're basically saying, "It has absolutely nothing to do with multipliers (except for this one multiplier right here)."

[rereboy]

Goku is the one who appears to have dropped more, since he can barely more before getting SSJ.

After going SS, he turns to base, and can easily fly, dodge attacks etc.
before going SS, he was able to barely move.

See the difference? Seems like the transformation acted like a refill to his power.

Or just his stamina. Or enough to make him move normally in base but not to compensate the difference between what he lost and what Freeza lost. It's pretty uncertain.