Wrong Androids...

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Bagginses
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Wrong Androids...

Post by Bagginses » Wed Jul 27, 2016 3:31 am

In the manga where Trunks mentions Androids 19 and 20, instead of 17 and 18, that is commonly thought of as an error. Yet I remember saying this to a friend several years ago and he told me it was a ''technical error'' and not an error in the STORY of the manga, that is, not a contradiction. But if you look up every ''Dragon Ball plot holes'' videos on Youtube, you will see this error of the Androids mentioned.

I should also stress that, additionally, my friend told me it was not a plot hole because the Androids simply could have different numbers in Trunks timeline.

So how does the Androids ''mistake'' actually messes up the story? Do you consider it a technical error, or a contradiction in the story?

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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Cetra » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:29 am

It is an error because Trunks never knew 19 and 20 and his Cyborgs also were called 17 and 18. It was no problem the moment it was said in the story but became a problem when the decision to bring in 17 and 18 was made. Saying it is not a story problem is like saying other things that were said in the story that contradict a previous decision are not an error. Of course it is possible to think that the moment 17 and 18 were brought in, Trunks speech is thought of as retconned by the author and he never actually said 19 and 20 in-universe (something that we have to imagine by ourselves then as we hear or read him saying it nonetheless). Still it would be an error normally.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Darkprince410 » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:13 am

For an out-of-universe explanation to the situation, the fact of the matter is that Toriyama had initially wanted to have #19 and Gero (#20) as the villains that Trunks was warning about, because he intended to have them as the primary villains of the arc. However, Kazuhiko Torishima, who was Toriyama's editor during the Dragon Ball manga up to the 23rd Budoukai, contacted him and said that they weren't good villains, as they were a "geezer and a fatso", which led to Toriyama creating #17 and #18. Torishima contacted him again after they were introduced and commented that they weren't good villains either as they were just "some brats", which led to Toriyama creating Cell.

So it was initially that it was supposed to be #19 and #20, but Toriyama being told to change it led to #17 and #18 being the Artificial Humans that Trunks was warning them about, We know it's not a matter of them being numbered differently in Trunks' time, for when he comes back in time a second time, he specifically names and describes #17 and #18, as he commented on #17 being a black-haired boy around his age with a scarf and #18 as a cute girl.

So it is a retcon of their numbering and a plot hole given that they were clearly referred to as #19 and #20 before, then pushed to have always been #17 and #18.

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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by SSJ Human » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:27 am

Darkprince410 wrote:For an out-of-universe explanation to the situation, the fact of the matter is that Toriyama had initially wanted to have #19 and Gero (#20) as the villains that Trunks was warning about, because he intended to have them as the primary villains of the arc. However, Kazuhiko Torishima, who was Toriyama's editor during the Dragon Ball manga up to the 23rd Budoukai, contacted him and said that they weren't good villains, as they were a "geezer and a fatso", which led to Toriyama creating #17 and #18. Torishima contacted him again after they were introduced and commented that they weren't good villains either as they were just "some brats", which led to Toriyama creating Cell.

So it was initially that it was supposed to be #19 and #20, but Toriyama being told to change it led to #17 and #18 being the Artificial Humans that Trunks was warning them about, We know it's not a matter of them being numbered differently in Trunks' time, for when he comes back in time a second time, he specifically names and describes #17 and #18, as he commented on #17 being a black-haired boy around his age with a scarf and #18 as a cute girl.

So it is a retcon of their numbering and a plot hole given that they were clearly referred to as #19 and #20 before, then pushed to have always been #17 and #18.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by successoroffate » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:45 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:For an out-of-universe explanation to the situation, the fact of the matter is that Toriyama had initially wanted to have #19 and Gero (#20) as the villains that Trunks was warning about, because he intended to have them as the primary villains of the arc. However, Kazuhiko Torishima, who was Toriyama's editor during the Dragon Ball manga up to the 23rd Budoukai, contacted him and said that they weren't good villains, as they were a "geezer and a fatso", which led to Toriyama creating #17 and #18. Torishima contacted him again after they were introduced and commented that they weren't good villains either as they were just "some brats", which led to Toriyama creating Cell.

So it was initially that it was supposed to be #19 and #20, but Toriyama being told to change it led to #17 and #18 being the Artificial Humans that Trunks was warning them about, We know it's not a matter of them being numbered differently in Trunks' time, for when he comes back in time a second time, he specifically names and describes #17 and #18, as he commented on #17 being a black-haired boy around his age with a scarf and #18 as a cute girl.

So it is a retcon of their numbering and a plot hole given that they were clearly referred to as #19 and #20 before, then pushed to have always been #17 and #18.
Imagine if Torishima would have contacted Toriyama again and said something like " Cell is just an obnoxious Parasite."
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Hellspawn28 » Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:51 pm

Butterfly effect is the best answer to explain it if you ask me.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Esfír Dedragón » Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:14 pm

This is perfect example of a missed opportunity in giving a plausible explanation as to how, when, where, and why the Androids originally appeared compared to the rest of the timelines, in-universe wise.

I must admit that I don't remember reading the part in the manga in which Trunks mentions #19 and #20, so it's surprising for me to find out that Toriyama kept changing the main villains during the Cell arc.

I think I mentioned before that, in my opinion, Toriyama boxed himself into a corner in terms of story-telling when introducing time travel. Anything different that happens in the main timeline will always be followed by the endless questions of "What's X,Y, and Z character doing over there? Did *insert hypothetical alternate/same villain* inevitably do X,Y, and Z events? etc. Heck, my favorite speculative questions are the ones that relate to the unseen and original timeline!

Anyway, in the original timeline, we all know that Goku died either shortly after his second fight with Frieza or 1-2 years after their fight. Perhaps Dr. Gero found out that he died. Did that change his ideas about how many Androids to create? Were #19 and #16 even built? Could he have named #17 and 18, #19 and #20, respectively? Was Future Trunks misinformed and believed that the Androids had incorrect numbers? In the manga, was it ever stated which Androids killed the Z-fighters?

In talking about the main timeline, Did Trunks's trip to the past compel Dr. Gero to create more Androids? How about Goku living longer instead of dying soon?

Even if Toriyama never planned it all out, it still would have been great to at least try to explain why so many things changed and bury, if not partially cover, the plot holes made.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by ABED » Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:21 pm

Other than different numbering of the Cyborgs, the difference in the timelines can be chalked up to the butterfly effect, not plot holes.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 12:11 am

Darkprince410 wrote:Imagine if Torishima would have contacted Toriyama again and said something like " Cell is just an obnoxious Parasite."
Actually, if I remember correctly, Toriyama-sensei's editor during the Cell arc, whose name escapes me (It believe it wasn't Torishima.), complained about the designs of First Form Cell and Second Form Cell, leading to Cell's perfect form, which I remember Toriyama-sensei referring to as "cool-looking" in comparison to Cell's previous two forms.

Edit: It was Toriyama-sensei's second editor, Kondō Yū.
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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Darkprince410 » Sat Jul 30, 2016 3:28 am

Black Hawk wrote:Actually, if I remember correctly, Toriyama-sensei's editor during the Cell arc, whose name escapes me (It believe it wasn't Torishima.), complained about the designs of First Form Cell and Second Form Cell, leading to Cell's perfect form, which I remember Toriyama-sensei referring to as "cool-looking" in comparison to Cell's previous two forms.
You quoted the wrong guy. I wasn't the one that had wondered what if Torishima had contacted him again.

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Re: Wrong Androids...

Post by Black Hawk » Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:03 pm

Darkprince410 wrote:
Black Hawk wrote:Actually, if I remember correctly, Toriyama-sensei's editor during the Cell arc, whose name escapes me (It believe it wasn't Torishima.), complained about the designs of First Form Cell and Second Form Cell, leading to Cell's perfect form, which I remember Toriyama-sensei referring to as "cool-looking" in comparison to Cell's previous two forms.
You quoted the wrong guy. I wasn't the one that had wondered what if Torishima had contacted him again.
Oops! My mistake; it's been a while since I've been active on the forums, so I may or may not have gotten un-used to the quoting system.
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