Understanding Akira Toriyama's intention behind Kid Buu

[hellobooboo14]

First up, topics like this has historically never gone well (at least in other forums) due to having two factions; Kid Buu being the strongest Buu and Goku being stronger than Gohan post Kaioshin power up & Evil Buu being stronger than Kid Buu and Gohan stronger than Ssj3 Goku.

So if this goes out of hand where people start flaming or does something that is forbidden in the rules, mods, please close this thread.

But I'm creating this because I'm curious to know the intentions of Akira Toriyama. First off, I always thought it was the anime that confuses people where they contradict the manga on who was stronger, but as I've debated people, some people who are Goku and Kid Buu fans brought a couple of interesting information.

1. They use this quote with the highlighted section they emphasize on:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P4.2-7
Kaioshin: “In m…my era there were five Kaioshins…until they were defeated by the Majin Boo that the wizard Babidi created…I was the youngest and most powerless one, but I somehow survived, with only heavy injuries…But the other four fell to Boo…First, two were killed…the North Kaioshin and the West Kaioshin….And then the South Kaioshin, the burliest and strongest one, was…somehow absorbed by Boo….. “
Elder Kaioshin: …And he became that huge Boo from before? “
Kaioshin: “…Yes…Next to be absorbed was the fat but kind and gentle Dai-Kaioshin….The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was evil itself, a failed creation that even Bibidi himself couldn’t handle, but by absorbing the Dai-Kaioshin, he somehow become controllable…. “
Elder Kaioshin: “…So he was finally completed…Which is to say…that this current…small Majin Boo…is the initial…mo…most troublesome one…”
Kaioshin: “….Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption…has returned once again to the way it was…he has no self-control whatsoever…he has become evil itself…”

2. They use an interview from Toriyama claiming he gives information/story boards to Toei animation so that means what Toei says about Kid Buu is true.

"Do you watch, not as the “creator”, but as an ordinary viewer?
I do, actually. But at the very least, even while eating dinner, I still think to myself things like, “so that’s how they did this scene,” so I suppose it really is a bit different from being an ordinary viewer.
The TV anime includes parts that are original to it as well; do they also use some concepts that you yourself came up with, Sensei?
It is partly things that get passed on to Toei Animation through my editor. When other TV-original segments air, it always makes my heart pound. Sort of like, “Ah, this sort of thing is nice, too”.
Do you already have in mind detailed concepts for things that didn’t appear in the original work?
Generally, I had already thought of concepts, where I felt things should be a certain way. For example, when the story suddenly jumps forward to five years later, things like, “During those five years, something like this probably happened…”."

3. And finally they use this interview to confirm that Toriyama is trying to say Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.

[spoiler][/spoiler]


So, my question is, if the manga is clear on who is stronger or the strongest version of Buu, then why would Toriyama say things like ^ the interview in point #3 where the questioner asks "the most powerful character is actually the smallest for example Young Goku, Frieza, Kid Buu in their final transformations and Toriyama agrees with him/her.

My other question is, how involved was Toriyama with Toei when they decide to change things having Goku say Kid Buu is on a different level to all the Buus?

Thirdly, what did Kaioshin mean when he said "Yes…the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption"

My interpretation is Dai Kaioshin was the piece that lowered Kid Buus power because of Dai Kaioshin kind and gentle nature. Because Evil Buu + Gohan had Buu say he is the strongest Buu. So it cannot be just absorption that made Buu weaker, but it was the heart that actually lowered his power which means Dai Kaioshin = Fat Buu was weaker that before and more controllable.

Is that wrong?

And ultimately, what do you think was his intentions? Does he care or did he change his mind after the serialization of the manga?

[VegettoEX]

2. They use an interview from Toriyama claiming he gives information/story boards to Toei animation so that means what Toei says about Kid Buu is true.

Q: How would you position the Dragon Ball Z anime (TV series)?

A:I consider the TV animation to be in "one dimension" with the Manga. I have what I call Canon, which is the TV series and the original, printed comic edition works that are directly tied into continuity.

This is a fabricated quote from a non-existent interview.

[hellobooboo14]

Any clarification on if Toriyama provides any storyboards or dialogues to Toei during when Dragon Ball was airing in Japan?

[Desassina]

It's not hard to imagine that things went back and forth between the manga and the anime. The manga does not have the power of a studio targeting a major crowd in prime time through the anime. It's self sufficient to the point of it being released complete, although at its own pace, while the anime takes too many risks for being an adaptation. With that being said, do you seriously believe that these risks would not be consulted beforehand in what was a complete production?

Dragon Ball is not just Akira Toriyama's work, because he had to answer to the world being created on both ends, and I would argue that he has only earned his freedom now that he can simply write his ideas in DB Super. Toyotaro's manga is the mirror image of the 90s anime because he has to produce it from Akira Toriyama's ideas, like Toei had to create content from Akira Toriyama's sketches and notes, while both the DB Super anime and the original manga run were being released.

[B]

He says his intention right there with that Jump interview: he was defying expectations that the final villain would be this hulking mass of muscle(in addition to defying expectations that the enemy would be ultra-threatening when its really magic bubblegum). Toriyama was not concerned about power levels. Monday-morning-manga-writing is never going away, I get that, but the reader is not worried about all these "contradictions" or "plot holes" when they are in the middle of experiencing the story; they, for whatever reason, go looking for problems after the fact.

[LowRyder2005]

Needless to point out that people's mileage greatly varied on the issue, historically. As someone who is pretty passionate about narrative, it's always appeared extremely straightforward to me, though:

The premise is that Toriyama suddenly wants to close the manga with the series' protagonist, but he had already created a narrative framework in which it was kind of heavily implied that aforementioned protagonist had hit his plateau and was, in fact, surpassed by two other characters - who had both achieved some gigantic power boosts in turn through plot devices.

Let's talk about Goku. It had been established that he had trained for years and had reached a pinnacle of the sort. In fact, I'd dare say that at least at that point of the manga, he shouldn't have even been able to get substantially stronger than before. To me this was the main undertone back in the Cell Game Arc when Goku had implied that training any more after Goku's and Gohan's stay in the ROSAT would've not delivered any more appreciable results. Since he basically ends up unlocking Super Saiyan 2 and 3 hereafter, and he's still comparable in power to his son from years before even after more training in the Otherworld, it's reasonable to assume that in Toriyama's mind Goku could have hit his all time ceiling and had to resort to some extreme transformations - with their drawbacks and factitiousness being called upon by other characters (Rou Kaioshin, Goku himself) and the plot progression itself - to face the first Majin Buu. This Majin Buu, however, still had the "this is only my first form" feel all over him and would probably become stronger and stronger.

Goku is taken out of the picture fairly quick after showing off his ultimate form, and the reader is presented with:
Gotenks = a fused character that is many times and/or exponentially stronger than characters who aren't that far off from Goku himself, hyped by, again Goku himself, as someone who'll be the strongest the world has ever seen.
Gohan = through a literal deus ex machina, he becomes even stronger than aforementioned character.

Both are developed by Toriyama throughout 3/4 of the Buu Arc to be the knights in shining armor to save the day (this is more appliable to Gohan, actually. I don't think Toriyama ever considered giving Gotenks anything more than a secondary role). Goku is relegated to the sidelines in a coaching role.

However, Toriyama eventually realizes that himself and/or the readers wanted to have Goku under the spotlight for the ending. It was very much deserved, though, since the series' success mainly rested on Goku being Dragon Ball's heart and soul. The current "Evil" Buu, however, was already equal to Gotenks - fused character that is many times and/or exponentially blah blah - who was apparently stronger than Goku under equal forms/conditions had even achieved Goku's own ultimate form. Goku, on the other hand, hadn't been "upgraded" to kick Evil Buu's butt.
Second problem: Toriyama had already written himself in a corner: Goku didn't have the material time to get another power-up through a decent explanation (progression is basically "Goku has no reason to get stronger because he has faith in Gohan -> Gohan fails -> Goku goes to the rescue -> Goku fuses with Vegeta -> Goku is now inside Buu).

He addresses the problem directly by making Goku answer Vegeta's question (which is actually the reader's question: why isn't Goku going out and kicking Super Buu around?). In a typical "if the mountain won't come to Muhammad" event, being unable to make Goku stronger without causing more headscratchers - as in, "he was hiding Super Saiyan 3... but he's hiding Super Saiyan 4 as well, or Super Super Saiyan 3, which is more powerful than Fusion and the kind-of-best power-up in the universe from the oldest living deity", he ends up making the enemy weaker. More feasible, since Majin Buu is a magical being and literal "magic" can work with him. Enter the Pure Buu, who is however more dangerous because of his unpredictability (he's insane, so bluffs, stalling and other mind games wont' work with him; corollary: could randomly destroy the planet in one heartbeat for the heck of it and so on) to keep a functional spannung. Following the assumption that Super Buu is indeed "stronger than Kid Buu, but less dangerous" and to make a parallel to a stock American action movie, switching from Super Buu to Kid Buu in this case would kind of be like switching enemies from a "powerful brute with an AK-47" to a "little evil guy who holds a detonator". This accomplishes two things:

* Goku can beat the final opponent in the manga.
* Goku can beat the most dangerous opponent, since Goku is the only one of the "powerful ones" left.
* Goku can have the proper send-off.

Regarding TOEI, I'm very inclined to believe that they simply had interests in mind other than keeping the plot together. Moreover, the anime adaptation is very diluted, and even if they thought about the apparent contradictions of Goku arguing that he's inferior to an inferior form of Buu he thinks he can beat, I'd theorize that advertising the final fight throughout characters and narrators as "the be-all-end-all fight between the two most powerful characters in the iconic series" only had some kind of soft "marketing" purposes in keeping everyone interested (as an added piece of trivia: ratings were at an all-time low during the "Inside Buu" mini-arc). Maybe they believed that their average viewer would be dissatisfied without Goku clearly being the strongest, defeating the strongest enemy; history said they were at least partly right, given that the main issue a considerable amount of people have with the manga's generally perceived state of affairs, in my experience, is that "arguing that Super Buu is stronger makes the final fight and the ending worthless" or something other among these lines. Instead, I think that, assuming we could simply take everything at face-value (meaning Super >Goku > Kid) it was a very clever - if not the most clever - and elegant authorial move on Toriyama's part. Definitely an added value and not a weak point.

[TheGreatness25]

That's a great post, LowRyder2005!


I agree with pretty much everything in there. I must admit that I used to be in the camp that kid Boo must be stronger than Super Boo because you go from weaker characters to stronger, not in reverse! And yet, it totally makes sense that Super Boo was always more powerful than kid Boo. Just follow the chain. Why would kid Boo start absorbing other characters? The answer is: To get even stronger. Nobody absorbs anyone to get weaker. Would you say that when Boo absorbed Piccolo that he got weaker than he was before? Piccolo was much weaker than Boo. I think that any absorption made Boo more powerful. While Goku says that fusing with someone like Dende or Satan would actually have poor results in terms of power, Boo is magical and isn't fusing; he's increasing his power by adding another being to him. Kind of like how imperfect Cell would absorb people and get stronger; those people were much weaker than him and yet that did not make him weaker.

It is alluded to that when Boo absorbed Grand Kaioshin, Boo became weaker not because the absorption brought down his power, but because he gained a trait that put a block on the way that he used his power. Boo was no longer capable of thinking or feeling the way he did before, thus holding down his power. It's kind of like Vegeta's reasoning for why he opened himself up to Babidi's mind control -- because when you develop a conscience, it prevents you from using the power that you have in a way that's optimum for fighting all-out.

I'm sure that fat Boo is not stronger than kid Boo, but that's not because the transformation itself denied him access to that power; it's because he acquired a conscience that diluted his ability to use the power that he had.

So if that's the logical chain, then it would make sense that every absorption increased Boo's power. So if kid Boo was the first, that means that he's the weakest. However, we do know that upon absorbing Grand Kaioshin, he became weaker because he no longer had it in him to cause the chaos that he would have before.

I have no doubts that kid Boo is the "most dangerous" because he is the most primitive. While another version of Boo would stop and think about what he's doing, there was no thought with kid Boo. Super Boo was hunting for a fight, wanting to battle the most powerful beings he could, which resulted in the Earth being spared. Kid Boo had zero thought or desire other than for destruction, so as his first act, he destroyed Earth. It's this absent-minded kind of power. Think of a drunk guy who gets into a fight; he'd seem scary strong but he's not physically any stronger than his sober self, it's that all inhibition, thought, fear, doubt, and rationality has left that guy. That's kid Boo in a nutshell. He's the most dangerous because he's unpredictable. At any moment, he could just stop and blow up the planet. There was a pretty safe bet that Super Boo wouldn't do that -- not because he wasn't capable, but because he actually thought about what he was doing.

As for kid Boo being small, Toriyama seems to like the idea of seeing David more powerful than Goliath. For so long, his main protagonist was a child. Then in Z, a child was more powerful than the majority of the characters. That idea carried over to Goten and Trunks. Child Gohan was actually more powerful than his adult self (until old Kaioshin unlocked his potential, of course). Freeza went from small to big, to bigger, to small again. Cell went from shrimpy to huge to smaller. Boo just followed that progression as well.

[Speedster]

With Dragonball Super and especially episode 39 the answer to this is to me clear as day. And that is that indeed kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu (or at the very least stronger than base Super Buu) and SSJ3 Goku just asspulled an improvement to fight him. After all Goku felt powerless to even attempt stopping Kid Buu's Earth busting blast moments before their fight, the same way he stated he had no chance against base Super Buu. Now, is such an asspulled power up possible? Yes, Hit did so during the U6 tournament and Vegeta commented that only Saiyans could do such a thing. Also Krillin remarked that this was Goku’s winning pattern. So to recap. Goku pushed his SSJ3 to reach new heights like he did with the SSG form while he was fighting Beerus. And if you think about it, it doesn't need to be too much of an improvement - just a 2 or 3x improvement upon his previous thought-to-be limit. Whether he increased his base and the SSJ3 "multiplier" remained the same or he increased the SSJ3 boost/"multiplier" is a mere detail. Personally I never took at face value those worthless static multipliers of the retconned Super Exciting Guide anyway.

[sintzu]

LowRyder2005's post is perfect so I won't add anything to it.

With Dragonball Super...

SSJ3 Goku just asspulled an improvement to fight him.

After all Goku felt powerless to even attempt stopping Kid Buu's Earth busting blast moments before their fight.

Super didn't exist back then and it's being written with a completely different mindset.

Buu wouldn't have been able to toy with him if he got some kind of improvement.

Because he was powerless and it showed during his fight with him.

[Desassina]

Like bees to an hive. There's no amount of text that is going to change what the manga has been followed through with, regardless of its many layers of adaptation. If they were acknowledged by the man himself, and they're being continued by him, then it's all that we have to take into account. You only make things harder for the casual fans, with how "innocent" they are, by cornering this community with false claims of intelligence and consistency. The truest of the hardcore are not the ones who claim things for themselves, but whomever the people outside this community recognize for knowing how to expose them. Geekdom, Qaaman Land and a few others are only hitting themselves in the head for explaining things as if they had to. I've seen the best fans translating things and making them accessible to everyone else, documenting this franchise's news and product releases for anyone to keep up, but I have never seen the Youtubers and community members' entitlement in any of them. Make theories and address the opinions of each other, but know that they won't take precedence to anything official. Be the better man and take a scientific approach to discussion: observe and break the dogmas.

[sintzu]

There's no amount of text that is going to change what the manga has been followed through with.

If they were acknowledged by the man himself, and they're being continued by him, then it's all that we have to take into account.

You only make things harder for the casual fans, with how "innocent" they are, by cornering this community with false claims of intelligence and consistency.

This is unfortunately true.

The "man himself" isn't completely responsible for the writing so I'd take what's stated in the anime and manga with a grain of salt when compared to the original manga.

For example, in the anime hit was able to get stronger over time while in the manga he couldn't.

In the manga Trunks' Ssj2 was said to be as strong as Goku's Ssj3 while in the anime nothing like that was said.

In the manga going SsjB twice will reduce the user's power to 10% which doesn't happen in the anime.