Can anyone explain this paradox? | Theorists I summon you!

[Captain Strawberry]

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I understand the desire here, but I really don't get why everyone is so impatient to jump on the "explain away the plot holes and paradox" train.

Toriyama didn't actually say any of that though. All that was mentioned was that the story would jump around through time and may get confusing. We obviously don't have all the information about the plot availible to us, so it seems like a waste of energy to me to discuss, debate, and likely fall down the rabbit hole of outright arguing, about problems that may not exist.

I say just be patient and watch the arc unfold. Then discuss whatever problems may crop up once the twists are revealed. That's just my two cents though...

[Cetra]

I heard from Geekdom101 that Toriyama said this arc will or might have plotholes

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

That cannot be explained right now because no one knows what he was talking about. We also have the problem that people use the same words for different stuff. Like "changing time" when it is actually not changed but another timeline branch was opened instead of just using "changing time" for an actual impossible time change (that would erase the reason for changing time thus being impossible in a fully logical system).

You see, we need more information. And in case of Dragon Ball there might always be vague stuff.

[Terra-jin]

I think it's in good hands. They still have two other alternate timelines to play with (Cell's future and the unseen timeline), so who knows! How cool it would be if they finally show something from the unseen timeline!

[Helios518]

I think it's in good hands. They still have two other alternate timelines to play with (Cell's future and the unseen timeline), so who knows! How cool it would be if they finally show something from the unseen timeline!

What's the unseen timeline?

[Rubens]

I would wait until the end of this arc before jumping into conclusions.

[Terra-jin]

What's the unseen timeline?

It's one of the four commonly agreed upon alternate timelines. The Trunks that was killed by Imperfect Cell had to have visited a different past than the main timeline that our Trunks went to. This is that timeline.

There is no footage of it, and all we know of it is that Trunks acquired some means to defeat the artificial humans there, yet remained unable to defeat Imperfect Cell.

Perhaps Black or Future Zamasu came from there..?

[TheMikado]

I would wait until the end of this arc before jumping into conclusions.

This is the correct answer.

At present with known information, the anime does seem to present a casual loop, time paradox.
However the arc isn't over yet and until it has we should refrain from jumping to assumptions.

That being said, it appears the manga specifically took steps to avoid that same time paradox, casual loop.
Thus there is a possibility that it may be an unresolved plot hole. Until we see the finished product we will not know.

[Cipher]

What's the unseen timeline?

It's the timeline changed by Trunks without Cell's presence. When Cell kills Trunks, he's already been back to the past once (and it's heavily implied he found a way to defeat the androids there). So there's a version of events where Trunks enters the past without Cell.

Once Cell steals the time machine, we get a version of the past with both Cell and Trunks arriving in it, which is what we see in the main series.

So far it doesn't seem like the Goku Black arc has lead to any new timelines -- its characters may or may not have created a self-contained loop by moving freely between two existing ones -- but until the rest of the arc plays out, it's pointless to further break down its time travel. We don't have the most important pieces yet.

[Geekdom101]

I heard from Geekdom101 that Toriyama said this arc will or might have plotholes

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

I never said that LOL. Toriyama's quote was about how the timelines may be confusing, but just go with it.

I understand the desire here, but I really don't get why everyone is so impatient to jump on the "explain away the plot holes and paradox" train.

Toriyama didn't actually say any of that though. All that was mentioned was that the story would jump around through time and may get confusing. We obviously don't have all the information about the plot availible to us, so it seems like a waste of energy to me to discuss, debate, and likely fall down the rabbit hole of outright arguing, about problems that may not exist.

I say just be patient and watch the arc unfold. Then discuss whatever problems may crop up once the twists are revealed. That's just my two cents though...

THIS I did say. Be patient. Do you have any idea how many messages, tweets, and comments I get DAILY with differing "theories" and speculation on this. Literally hundreds. I LOVE that fans are interested in Super right now, I really do, but we should just WAIT!

[Captain Strawberry]

I heard from Geekdom101 that Toriyama said this arc will or might have plotholes

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

I never said that LOL. Toriyama's quote was about how the timelines may be confusing, but just go with it.

oh sorry
I thought you said something about plot holes in one of your videos lol

[Terez]

I understand the desire here, but I really don't get why everyone is so impatient to jump on the "explain away the plot holes and paradox" train.

Toriyama didn't actually say any of that though. All that was mentioned was that the story would jump around through time and may get confusing. We obviously don't have all the information about the plot availible to us, so it seems like a waste of energy to me to discuss, debate, and likely fall down the rabbit hole of outright arguing, about problems that may not exist.

I say just be patient and watch the arc unfold. Then discuss whatever problems may crop up once the twists are revealed. That's just my two cents though...

THIS I did say. Be patient. Do you have any idea how many messages, tweets, and comments I get DAILY with differing "theories" and speculation on this. Literally hundreds. I LOVE that fans are interested in Super right now, I really do, but we should just WAIT!

What's wrong with theories? I can understand if some people don't want to participate in the theorizing, but I don't understand why other people theorizing is so bothersome. To me, this is one of the most exciting aspects of Super, because back in the day when we were watching DBZ as it came out in the US (those of us who are old enough), everything was spoiled for us because it came out in Japan years before. So we didn't have the luxury of playing the theory game. Some of us enjoy that.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Personally, I don't mind theories. I have plenty of speculation going on in my head. The problem comes when you have a topic looking for answers that don't exist yet. Lately it just leads to an entire forum full of people with theories that end up arguing (not debating) for half a dozen pages, claiming that everyone else doesn't have their facts straight...when it's impossible for any of us to have them straight.

The speculation over how the Hakaishin Tournament fights would go down? That was fun. Black's origin and the time travel paradoxes as of late? Eh. Not so much.

[Cetra]

So far it doesn't seem like the Goku Black arc has lead to any new timelines

I heavily disagree here. The moment a time tree is introduced all and every event uses a timeline fork for its positive and negative state (did that happen: yes/no).

Also, about the Unseen timeline there are several possibilities, either with plotholes, a bootstrap paradox or other stuff. There was a very new thread some days ago.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

So far it doesn't seem like the Goku Black arc has lead to any new timelines

I heavily disagree here. The moment a time tree is introduced all and every event uses a timeline fork for its positive and negative state (did that happen: yes/no).

You can disagree if you like, but it's the series that dictates the rules of the mechanics for...well, everything. Given that there are only four Time Rings for alternate timelines, the series is saying otherwise.

[Cetra]

So far it doesn't seem like the Goku Black arc has lead to any new timelines

I heavily disagree here. The moment a time tree is introduced all and every event uses a timeline fork for its positive and negative state (did that happen: yes/no).

You can disagree if you like, but it's the series that dictates the rules of the mechanics for...well, everything. Given that there are only four Time Rings for alternate timelines, the series is saying otherwise.

Yes, there are four Time Rings, that does not change that if timelines are introduced through the question if something happens the exact opposite timeline for this event not happening plays a role as well. I totally agree with fiction making its own rules, because that is axiomatic but still - normally timelines are like that.

[Captain Strawberry]

I heard from Geekdom101 that Toriyama said this arc will or might have plotholes

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

I never said that LOL. Toriyama's quote was about how the timelines may be confusing, but just go with it.

oh sorry
I thought you said something about plot holes in one of your videos lol

I cant seem to edit my post so i'll just quote it

I remember now, you didnt say that but my brain made a mistake

In a video i think you said' Toriyama said this arc might get confusing which tells me its like saying there might be plot holes so forgive me

Something along those but sorry for the mistake

[Terez]

Personally, I don't mind theories. I have plenty of speculation going on in my head. The problem comes when you have a topic looking for answers that don't exist yet. Lately it just leads to an entire forum full of people with theories that end up arguing (not debating) for half a dozen pages, claiming that everyone else doesn't have their facts straight...when it's impossible for any of us to have them straight.

The speculation over how the Hakaishin Tournament fights would go down? That was fun. Black's origin and the time travel paradoxes as of late? Eh. Not so much.

For me, the time travel and paradox stuff is more fun by far than anything we've had to speculate about before now. But that's just me. I can understand why some people don't get into it, and you in particular have explained why you don't get into it. But to me, it was actually frustrating to read through all the comments on this latest manga chapter at Reddit and see everyone talking about the Z sword and other minor details. 200 comments before anyone (me) even mentioned the fact that it had just been confirmed that Black was indeed from the main timeline, as if that question hasn't been the center of every discussion about Black/Zamasu we've been having for the last several weeks. But again, that's just me.

(By the way, I was relieved when I came here after having done the Reddit and saw that this fact was appreciated immediately by the denizens of this forum, but even still, people seem generally more captivated by the more minor details.)

Yes, there are four Time Rings, that does not change that if timelines are introduced through the question if something happens the exact opposite timeline for this event not happening plays a role as well. I totally agree with fiction making its own rules, because that is axiomatic but still - normally timelines are like that.

The way I see it, in the DB world these infinite universes representing every fork for every choice are merely theoretical, until actual time-traveling brings them into existence.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Yes, there are four Time Rings, that does not change that if timelines are introduced through the question if something happens the exact opposite timeline for this event not happening plays a role as well. I totally agree with fiction making its own rules, because that is axiomatic but still - normally timelines are like that.

Yeah, that's normally how the timeline tree concept works. But we've got 5 Time Rings total (with only one of them recent), even though the time machines have made at least 7 round trips between Trunks and Cell (and another on the way when Trunks checks if Zamasu is dead in the future a few episodes from now). So it seems pretty obvious that it does change things; that DB isn't working under those rules, but its own.

[Cipher]

I heavily disagree here. The moment a time tree is introduced all and every event uses a timeline fork for its positive and negative state (did that happen: yes/no).

Also, about the Unseen timeline there are several possibilities, either with plotholes, a bootstrap paradox or other stuff. There was a very new thread some days ago.

Feel free to disagree, but no one in Super has yet altered the past they know for themselves or for someone else (the kind of act that leads to splinter timelines in the original run of the manga). Trunks can come and go between his timeline and the main timeline as long as he always arrives after his last departure; he's been doing it since the first time he comes back to help fight the androids. The series has always worked that way, unless you believe there's always been at least one additional unseen timeline where Trunks doesn't come back a second time to help. Or, hell, where Goku, Vegeta and Trunks don't return at all after losing to Goku Black. (Which I suppose could be a route to take given Dragon Ball's timeline model, but it's the punchline to a horror manga rather than a Toriyama joint.)

I think it's highly likely we do have a bootstrap paradox situation enabled by Zamasu's ability to move between timelines with the green rings, but until we know more about his plans and the creation of Black, it's all prediction and speculation. We'll be able to better map out how this arc works in the grand scheme of the series' time-travel once it's finished.