Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

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Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:53 pm

Some fans are cool with Dragon Ball not having Toriyama involment while other are adamant to the thought of Toriyama not being involved in Dragon Ball.
I would like to know why you side with what band?

I´m on the side that Dragon Ball can (and should at this point) exist without Toriyama in it.
Franchises like Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, Star Wars and many others have shown that quality stuff can be produced regardless of the original creator being involve in it or not. Trunks TV Special and Bardock OVA have shown that guys not named Toriyama can put quality stuff, let´s also not forget that Toriyama produced Dragon Ball Minus and Ressurection 'F.
Moreover, hainvg new blood in the franchise would keep the series "fresh" with new creators adding their own flavor, tasting Toriyama dishes over and over can get stale (like how getting a new Assasin´s Creed game each year has killed my interest :yawn: )
Dragon Ball was always a kid series and fans should stop being in denial.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Gyt Kaliba » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:03 pm

The main issue with non-Toriyama Dragon Ball is that most of our examples we've had of purely someone else's vision for the franchise has proven to be...well, lackluster. It was without Toriyama we got GT (though I still vouch for GT having great ideas, just horrible execution). It was without Toriyama that we got all of the old movies that, even at their best, were still shameless ripoffs of the series proper. And most notably, it was without Toriyama that we got Evolution. And there is a certain feeling that so far it seems like only Toriyama is able to fully infuse into the series. So I can certainly understand why a lot of people are more comfortable if Toriyama is there in some capacity.

You're right however that bringing in new blood, while a risky concept, is also one filled with a lot of opportunities too. Toriyama had next to nothing to do with either of the two DBZ TV specials, and those are some of the best, most poignant material the franchise has ever given us. And to look to outside sources, there is something to be said for being too loyal to an original creator's vision sometimes. Much as I like the Mirage TMNT stuff as I read more of it, I can't help but feel that, had we never gotten any other people into the mix and it was only ever Eastman and Laird's vision at the helm, the entirety of the series would have eventually been driven into the ground. This especially feels true to me when I look at some of the stuff the latter Mirage-verse brought to the table (though that's only...Laird, I think, at that point?).

So yeah, playing devil's advocate, I can see both sides of the argument. I guess I'm just hesitantly optomistic in regards to DB without Toriyama, because while I accept it's something that's going to happen someday no matter what, I'm just enjoying having him back on board so much at the moment.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by UltimateHammerBro » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:05 pm

At this point, what I accept or not depends more on whether I like it or not rather than on Toriyama's involvement. I accept the Toei Bardock special, but not Episode of Bardock nor Minus. I accept both GT and Super as two separate continuities, but (gasp!) right now, GT holds a better place in my personal canon.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Bansho64 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:06 pm

UltimateHammerBro wrote:At this point, what I accept or not depends more on whether I like it or not rather than on Toriyama's involvement. I accept the Toei Bardock special, but not Episode of Bardock nor Minus. I accept both GT and Super as two separate continuities, but (gasp!) right now, GT holds a better place in my personal canon.
So much this. It depends entirely on how good it is for me.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Deathbringer » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:10 pm

Mainly because all of what people consider to be the "true" part of the series was handled solely by Toriyama (yes I'm aware that this is an exaggeration), it's like asking if you want JoJo's Bizarre Adventure without Hirohiko Araki, yeah you can adapt the manga without him but the manga was his work alone so it's way more closely associated with the author. I'm not saying this can't happen to Dragon Ball because it's happened before with Bardock, I'm not defending Dragon Ball Minus or Resurrection F because those were disappointing, also your point about Assassin's Creed is weird because those games are handled by many people working as part of a large company but Dragon Ball was largely the work of one man.

btw Trunks TV special was based off a special manga chapter by Toriyama (Trunks: The Story) although the anime made some changes such as Trunks finding Gohan and then turning SSJ, unless that's what you were referring to as being the example of non-Toriyama work.

My thoughts are that I wish the series had just been the manga (and of course the adaptations) and then some additional works and spin offs, but I'm not looking forward to a huge barrage of content, but at least they won't force Toriyama to write stories if he doesn't want to. Also if I get any confirmation that the story arc after the Goku Black arc will not be written by Toriyama then I will not consider that arc to be canon to the proverbial "Toriyama Canon" but that won't stop me from watching and enjoying it as a fan.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:16 pm

Deathbringer wrote:(....)also your point about Assassin's Creed is weird because those games are handled by many people working as part of a large company but Dragon Ball was largely the work of one man.
My point with that was that getting the same thing over and over gets stale (translation: getting Toriyama style DB Stuff over and over gets stale), Assassin´s Creed while being developed by many different people still have the same style, flavour and structure, that´s what I was trying to get across with the example but I guess it wasn´t very clear.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:17 pm

When they haven't constituted the bulk of new content or have existed as one-offs around the time of the series' original run, I've been fine with non-Toriyama contributions. The movies? Harmless spectacles, capable of giving us a few fun, very non-manga-styled characters. I like GT; it's aesthetically distinct, has a ton of ideas Toriyama would never go for, and still feels like it fits the series' first run as an extra attempt at an ending, even if its starting point is cynical. Filler episodes? Some of the best moments in the original anime series. The TV specials? Great. It's clear Toei has at points brought in writers who can reasonably approximate the characters and nail Toriyama-esque humor, or provide interesting content that takes a completely different approach.

But that's all ancillary; all right around the era Dragon Ball, the Toriyama comic, was fresh. More than that, none of them feel transparently marketing-driven; not even GT in execution, and it easily could have. I have no interest in Dragon Ball becoming the next Star Wars, or corporate superhero property, let alone the next perennial manga-based merchandising franchise a la Yu-Gi-Oh!. I don't care if the content is entertaining. Nothing about Dragon Ball's world demands more stories be told about it. It was a story that was uniquely, even fiercely, the product of an idiosyncratic author (plus editors, but that's always the case, and seemed to have a healthy dose of conflict), and ancillary material that accompanied it and was of the era. It's almost certain it will become one of the examples listed above, but I don't think I'll be following it in such a form, nor can I really say I'm looking forward to saying, "I really love Dragon Ball. Oh, but only the original run/story of Dragon Ball."

So, my answer is a little of column A, a little of column B.
Last edited by Cipher on Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:35 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Chuquita » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:18 pm

I prefer the "Toriyama + other people" thing the way the Gokû Black arc is, the way the original manga is, so ultimately, without him it would have to depend on the content itself.

Like, I don't care for Superhero Gokû, but I don't care for next-gen stuff either, nor those oc-starring DB manga in Saikyo Jump.

I'd be interested in post-db, pre-z stuff in those 5 years. I'm interested in when Super takes place.

That's about it though. I didn't care much for how Z ended, so outside of finally getting Bra, I'm not that invested in EoZ either.

I'm more interested in "Am I having fun watching this?" than "Is it canon?" but I do have things I just wouldn't watch if the characters I follow the franchise for are missing. I quit following new Dragon Ball content the moment they replace Gokû and Vegeta.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by TheMikado » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:22 pm

Bansho64 wrote:
UltimateHammerBro wrote:At this point, what I accept or not depends more on whether I like it or not rather than on Toriyama's involvement. I accept the Toei Bardock special, but not Episode of Bardock nor Minus. I accept both GT and Super as two separate continuities, but (gasp!) right now, GT holds a better place in my personal canon.
So much this. It depends entirely on how good it is for me.
I'm on this boat too.
I just can't do Minus ... :( worse part about that is that it had so much potential and the power scaling would still be at reasonable levels.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Baggie_Saiyan » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:32 pm

I think you don't need to look further then the Super retellings to see how clueless Toei can be.

I've noticed Toei only seem to do "dark" very well, Bardock Trunks M13 etc but fail to capture the charm of the characters like Toriyama can.

People can bash the Freeza movie all they want but the characters and their interactions were great and that why people said a Toei movie done right. Toei only seem to do that when shackles are off in filler or SoL episodes.

But in my opinion even if Toriyama leaves, writers will always be influenced by him and that will never ever go away look at GT they tried to circle back to OG DB. I'd just rather the creator stay. I mean take the new Star Wars film episode 7. Lucas may have made shite prequels but at least it held originality you know, at that point I would have much rather seen Lucas's episode 7 then what we got ANH2.0. Take the retellings from Super for example throwback after throwback and the Manga too. As I said even if Toriyama goes it's gonna feel like he's here but at the same time not so I'd just rather he be here!

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:37 pm

My enjoyment of Dragon Ball has never hinged on whether Toriyama is involved or not. I love his work with the original manga, but the guy is a very flawed writer and his insistence on needlessly re-establishing certain facts or information about the series prior has lead to major inconsistencies and and some time great frustration from me personally. If there is something I Iike a lot in regards to a new addition to the lore of Dragon Ball, whether it be tidbit or a completely new story, I will it the praise it deserves. If we get crap from the new era of Dragon Ball is will criticise it, as it deserves. Whether Toriyama was heavily involved in it or not, is a non-factor for me. I'm just looking for something new to enjoy in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Saikyo no Senshi » Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:59 pm

Agreed. I'm in the fresh blood camp. I maybe in the absolute minority but I'm tired of Toriyama. This Dragon Ball Room in Shueisha consist of some talented people who Toriyama trusts and they might bring novelty in DB never seen before. Yeah, I know I'm being too optimistic but I want change in Dragon Ball and I don't see that change coming with Toriyama at helm.

I know full well it might turn out to be completely worse and shit on everything DB stands for, but I'm interested to see what ideas these people bring to the table rather than rejecting it straight away cause it's "non-Toriyama" material.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Chuquita » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:04 pm

There are so many fan works I've enjoyed, I really do think it just comes down to the people involved.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Cetra » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:07 pm

I can accept it without him. Because that is how things work. It is like not accepting new Final Fantasy games just because Hironobu Sakaguchi no longer works for Square Enix. And a very fitting example at that because Hironobu Sakaguchi is good friends with a lood of Square and talked very positively about the upcoming Final Fantasy XV.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by THEGOKU » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:19 pm

It can be done without him it just seems that the bad things that have happened without him leave such a terrible taste in your mouth that it's hard to say it can be done. Granted that's how it is with every series I mean look at Metal Gear for example. Konami is making a zombie game that changes everything about Metal Gear and as a fan I know of it but I just won't buy it because it's just a name slapped onto a product for money. As fans we feel that if Toriyama is involved the pursuit of the dollar isn't as prevalent as it may be without him. I can have it either way personally with or without him because it is about what I like. It is sad though that with all this potential new stuff it could saturate the series and bring in too much in terms of characters and forms and what not.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by SansrivaaL » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:21 pm

I'm ok with Toriyama not being in it, I was fine with GT especially with SSJ4, that was some Sun Wukong vibe form there which made it 10x awesome, the day that Goku isnt in the main cast anymore is the day Dragon Ball dies for me.

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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Anime Kitten » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:46 pm

I can easily enjoy DB without him. He's obviously created a lot of good content - lore, characters, story - but I enjoy the stuff that Toei comes up with. I think if Mr. Toriyama officially retired from the franchise, then Toei would be able to create new content with proper motives, as opposed to making things up on the fly (filler) or trying to just keep DB going (GT, especially Super 17).
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by ekrolo2 » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:49 pm

Toriyama hasn't been actually good since the Namek arc and BoG only works because he hijacked it from another writer, reworking ideas not his into his usual mold. The Boo & Black arcs are enjoyable messes but I'll take a bullet to the face before admitting they're actually good narrative wise. This is why I'd not only be fine with a Toriyama-less DB but I'd actively encourage for it to happen.
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by Cipher » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:51 pm

I'm going to nuance my earlier answer a bit and try to lay out why I actually do like some franchise fiction, but wouldn't be excited for Dragon Ball to join hem. I'm a huge fan of giant monster movies, and Godzilla in particular, finding something interesting in even the worst entries (though without the good ones, I wouldn't be interested in the first place). Depending on who's writing or drawing, I enjoy a handful of American superhero comics as well, and they certainly aren't tied to a particular creator, even if they started with a distinct team.

I think part of why I feel differently about those, other than being, in most cases, more committee-based projects from the start, is that they're high-concept. They're preloaded, and exist more on the strength of a simple idea than a particular kind of execution; they're malleable, even somewhat political, storytelling templates for any individual to come in and use in an interesting, sometimes urgent, way.

Deagon Ball isn't high-concept (or, to the extent it is, it's already the work of an individual putting his spin on the high concept of fantasy martial arts). It isn't a big metaphor or simple core idea that asks to be reinterpreted. It's tied solely to its execution under Toriyama. The series doesn't exist any other way; there's nothing to separate from its author without imitation of his style.

That's why I'm not really on board for a glut of post-Toriyama Dragon Ball material. I don't particularly need imitative works that both lack his weird quirks and exist solely for the most cynical reasons. That world doesn't need to be host to more stories. I'd rather, in a kind of idealistic way, that creative energy be spent elsewhere. And I'd rather the original series not be tied to anything that becomes so transparently an IP farm or marketing franchise. One of the things I like about it is that it's a whimsical series that's distinctly not that. While it was something JUMP editorial encouraged, Toriyama was still very much doing what personally amused him, and fought against commercially-minded editorial suggestions for the right to age Goku into an adult (which, lo and behold, turned out to be the more commercially successful route by far).
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Re: Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

Post by ABED » Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:57 pm

I don't particularly need imitative works that both lack his weird quirks and exist solely for the most cynical reasons
You keep using the term cynical in this context, but I have yet to hear how it applies in this context.
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