How close are Goku and Vegeta now?

[ChiefWamsutta]

As we saw in Episode 63, Vegeta gained a substantial amount of power and it was enough to badly batter Goku Black.

As of right now, how close would you guys say Goku at maximum power and Vegeta at maximum power are?

So how close are SSB Kaio-ken X10 Goku (U6 Saga) and SSB Vegeta (Zamasu Saga, Post-Breaking Time Chamber)?

[Lord Beerus]

It's impossible to tell. The power scaling in Super is so ass-backwards, that you really can't tell whether Goku and Vegeta are at level pegging in terms of strength or if Goku is stronger than Vegeta or vice-verse. They are literally as strong as the plot demands them to be, and because of that, you can't get a proper gauge of what their maximum strength may be because it just fluctuates so radically on the whim of the writers for certain episodes. And as such, a legitmate comparison between the two characters in terms of strength is just impossible. I think we'll have to wait for the manga to clear thing up, because that is the only interpretation of the story that has any consistency.

[Captain Strawberry]

If you're referring to Beerus, It's impossible to tell how strong 100% Beerus is. Toriyama could do what Togashi did to Toguro and reveal that he has a true 100% of power.

[Cipher]

They're practically best friends.

They tell each other their deepest secrets.

[Marco Polo]

Vegeta is probably more powerful as of right now, but of course we know from End of Z that he won't have an opportunity to defeat Goku in a battle and that he will be weaker than Goku by the 28th world tournament.

[Khin]

I think it's quite obvious where the two stand so far. Goku got wrecked by Black in ep61 and didn't undergo training (Aside from learning the Mafuba) since then. Whereas Vegeta trained his ass off for half a year and curb-stomped Black in the latest episode.

Future Zamasu = SSB Goku << SSR Black ~< Super Trunks << SSB Vegeta

There's no way to tell if current Vegeta is stronger than SSB Kaio-ken x10 Goku or not. So it's all guesswork.

[precita]

They're practically best friends.

They tell each other their deepest secrets.

Heh, this is what I thought the thread was about too.

[Doctor.]

They're practically best friends.

They tell each other their deepest secrets.

Poor Kuririn was replaced.

[Borros]

Whis = 15
Beerus = 10
Vegeta SSJ Blue = 9
Black Gokû SSJ Rose = 8
Gokû SSJ Blue = beetwen 7 and 7,2
Hit = 7
Gokû SSJ God = 6

Whis >> Beerus > Vegeta SSB > Black Gokû SSJ Rose > Gokû SSB > Hit

[sintzu]

I think Goku with the ×10 Kaioken is still far stronger than current Vegeta.

[nite_jay]

I'd say they are still about equal. I think that people are forgetting that Goku took both Black and Big Zam on with a hole in his chest.

[miguelnuva1]

I personally don't think Black ever really surpassed SSJB that much. He had a transformation and blade attack Vegeta wasn't expecting and then Zamasu always ran interference. I'm going to say their both equal right now and Black is actually weaker because his other half can't help him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Not close at all, Vegeta gets one-shotted by Kaioken x10 Goku.

I personally don't think Black ever really surpassed SSJB that much. He had a transformation and blade attack Vegeta wasn't expecting and then Zamasu always ran interference. I'm going to say their both equal right now and Black is actually weaker because his other half can't help him.

He wrecked Goku pretty easily too before Zamasu showed up, in fact he was about to kill Goku and Goku already knew about SSRose and his blade.

Whis = 15
Beerus = 10
Vegeta SSJ Blue = 9
Black Gokû SSJ Rose = 8
Gokû SSJ Blue = beetwen 7 and 7,2
Hit = 7
Gokû SSJ God = 6

Whis >> Beerus > Vegeta SSB > Black Gokû SSJ Rose > Gokû SSB > Hit

The 6-10-15 scale doesn't actually mean anything anymore, I suggest you stop using it as it most likely only applies to the movies.

I think it's quite obvious where the two stand so far. Goku got wrecked by Black in ep61 and didn't undergo training (Aside from learning the Mafuba) since then. Whereas Vegeta trained his ass off for half a year and curb-stomped Black in the latest episode.

Future Zamasu = SSB Goku << SSR Black ~< Super Trunks << SSB Vegeta

There's no way to tell if current Vegeta is stronger than SSB Kaio-ken x10 Goku or not. So it's all guesswork.

Vegeta can't possibly have become more than 10x stronger by spending half a year in the RoSAT by himself, I'd say even Kaioken x2 Goku could wreck him right now, let alone x10. Beating Black doesn't mean that much since the gap between Black and Goku isn't that large, if it wasn't for Zamasu teaming up with Black Goku would have lasted much longer. I'd rank their power like so:
Goku: 10
Black: 12
Vegeta: 15

[Khin]

Vegeta can't possibly have become more than 10x stronger by spending half a year in the RoSAT by himself, I'd say even Kaioken x2 Goku could wreck him right now, let alone x10. Beating Black doesn't mean that much since the gap between Black and Goku isn't that large, if it wasn't for Zamasu teaming up with Black Goku would.

It's all guesswork because it was stated in the Copy-Vegeta Arc that Goku and Vegeta got stronger after the tournament. How much is that is unknown, which is why it's hard to tell how strong current Vegeta is compared to Goku in the tournament.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Vegeta can't possibly have become more than 10x stronger by spending half a year in the RoSAT by himself, I'd say even Kaioken x2 Goku could wreck him right now, let alone x10. Beating Black doesn't mean that much since the gap between Black and Goku isn't that large, if it wasn't for Zamasu teaming up with Black Goku would.

It's all guesswork because it was stated in the Copy-Vegeta Arc that Goku and Vegeta got stronger after the tournament. How much is that is unknown, which is why it's hard to tell how strong current Vegeta is compared to Goku in the tournament.

Ah, we're talking about the tournament, I figured we were talking about Goku using Kaioken right now. Still, the Copy-Vegeta arc is just filler, isn't it? Even if we do take it into account, it hasn't been too long since the tournament so their power levels probably increased very marginally. If current Goku were a 10 the Goku from back then would be like a 9.8 or so, they haven't had much time to train.

Also, I find Vegeta getting such a huge power boost by simply spending half a year in the chamber on his own totally ridiculous, it wasn't that long ago that he went in there with Goku for 3 years and said they didn't get much stronger and they were probably reaching their limits in the RoSAT, yet now he's totally forgotten about his limits and has become way stronger even though barely any time has passed?

[Khin]

Ah, we're talking about the tournament, I figured we were talking about Goku using Kaioken right now. Still, the Copy-Vegeta arc is just filler, isn't it? Even if we do take it into account, it hasn't been too long since the tournament so their power levels probably increased very marginally. If current Goku were a 10 the Goku from back then would be like a 9.8 or so, they haven't had much time to train.

Also, I find Vegeta getting such a huge power boost by simply spending half a year in the chamber on his own totally ridiculous, it wasn't that long ago that he went in there with Goku for 3 years and said they didn't get much stronger and they were probably reaching their limits in the RoSAT, yet now he's totally forgotten about his limits and has become way stronger even though barely any time has passed?

For starters, there's no ''filler'' in Super. The anime is the main product and it's not following a manga. Goku and Vegeta doesn't need to train to become way stronger, if the writers simply decide to make them way stronger, they will. Not to mention this is Toei, were characters was shown to be getting random boost for no reason. Cue Dragon Ball Z and GT.

For an in-universe explanation. It's probably because of their Saiyan genes, it was established that Saiyans gets stronger after fighting strong opponents. So Goku and Vegeta likely become stronger due to their respective fight with Hit.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ah, we're talking about the tournament, I figured we were talking about Goku using Kaioken right now. Still, the Copy-Vegeta arc is just filler, isn't it? Even if we do take it into account, it hasn't been too long since the tournament so their power levels probably increased very marginally. If current Goku were a 10 the Goku from back then would be like a 9.8 or so, they haven't had much time to train.

Also, I find Vegeta getting such a huge power boost by simply spending half a year in the chamber on his own totally ridiculous, it wasn't that long ago that he went in there with Goku for 3 years and said they didn't get much stronger and they were probably reaching their limits in the RoSAT, yet now he's totally forgotten about his limits and has become way stronger even though barely any time has passed?

For starters, there's no ''filler'' in Super. The anime is the main product and it's not following a manga. Goku and Vegeta doesn't need to train to become way stronger, if the writers simply decide to make them way stronger, they will. Not to mention this is Toei, were characters was shown to be getting random boost for no reason. Cue Dragon Ball Z and GT.

For an in-universe explanation. It's probably because of their Saiyan genes, it was established that Saiyans gets stronger after fighting strong opponents. So Goku and Vegeta likely become stronger due to their respective fight with Hit.

Depends on your definition of filler, if you simply define filler as "Stuff added in that's not in the original work", sure, but Toriyama himself could come and draw a chapter of Goku and Vegeta going to another planet to have an eating contest or something similarly nonsensical and I'd still call it filler unless it actually did something to progress the plot or give us new information.
And the anime definitely has a few filler episodes that have zero relation to the overall plot and the series wouldn't change at all if they weren't included. The manga on the other hand tends to stick to things of actual importance.

Also, just because Toei is making this doesn't mean we have to tolerate their crap, someone's gotta make sense of it all eventually, be it guides or even Toriyama himself. After all, nobody thought Goku suddenly surpassed Gohan, Vegetto etc. in a matter of minutes at the end of the Buu arc just because Toei said he became the strongest, though it's harder in this situation because there's no "original" material to fall back on since the anime is basically already that.

[Khin]

Depends on your definition of filler, if you simply define filler as "Stuff added in that's not in the original work", sure, but Toriyama himself could come and draw a chapter of Goku and Vegeta going to another planet to have an eating contest or something similarly nonsensical and I'd still call it filler unless it actually did something to progress the plot or give us new information.
And the anime definitely has a few filler episodes that have zero relation to the overall plot and the series wouldn't change at all if they weren't included. The manga on the other hand tends to stick to things of actual importance.

Also, just because Toei is making this doesn't mean we have to tolerate their crap, someone's gotta make sense of it all eventually, be it guides or even Toriyama himself. After all, nobody thought Goku suddenly surpassed Gohan, Vegetto etc. in a matter of minutes at the end of the Buu arc just because Toei said he became the strongest, though it's harder in this situation because there's no "original" material to fall back on since the anime is basically already that.

As I said before, the anime is the main product of Super. Fillers are expressly generated to fill gap so the anime won't catch up the manga. In Super's case, it's not following a manga, therefore it has no filler. The word ''filler'' is pretty self-explanatory. Whether it serves a purpose to the story or not is irrelevant. since there's also stuff from the manga that serves no purpose to the story. What purpose that the cart racing have in the main story ? Or some interactions between the characters, or that stuff in the manga about Majin Boo and the blind boy.

There's also the RoF Arc that serves no purpose in the story aside from introducing Super Saiyan Blue and some minimal stuff that can also easily be done in the tournament. But that doesn't mean that it's filler.

Not to mention the Copy-Vegeta arc was referenced twice in the Future Trunks Arc, so you can't say and act like it never happened either. How Vegeta got stronger in just span of 6 months is unknown, but the most likely reason is simply because the plot calls for it. It doesn't need to follow rules or something. It happens in almost every fiction, and even in the series itself.

For Toei Animation, they showed inconsistency many times. Stuff like Dragon Ball GT and Z fillers are one of those examples. Super included. Even Toriyama contradicts himself too. Even guidebooks also contradicts themselves.

[TheUltimateNinja]

As I said before, the anime is the main product of Super. Fillers are expressly generated to fill gap so the anime won't catch up the manga. In Super's case, it's not following a manga, therefore it has no filler. The word ''filler'' is pretty self-explanatory. Whether it serves a purpose to the story or not is irrelevant. since there's also stuff from the manga that serves no purpose to the story. What purpose that the cart racing have in the main story ? Or some interactions between the characters, or that stuff in the manga about Majin Boo and the blind boy.

There's also the RoF Arc that serves no purpose in the story aside from introducing Super Saiyan Blue and some minimal stuff that can also easily be done in the tournament. But that doesn't mean that it's filler.

Not to mention the Copy-Vegeta arc was referenced twice in the Future Trunks Arc, so you can't say and act like it never happened either. How Vegeta got stronger in just span of 6 months is unknown, but the most likely reason is simply because the plot calls for it. It doesn't need to follow rules or something. It happens in almost every fiction, and even in the series itself.

For Toei Animation, they showed inconsistency many times. Stuff like Dragon Ball GT and Z fillers are one of those examples. Super included. Even Toriyama contradicts himself too. Even guidebooks also contradicts themselves.

But the thing is with Toriyama and the guides most of their mistakes are minor and understandable, whereas with Toei they do totally illogical things and are quite brazen about it, of course there's those rare few times they actually get something right like having Vegeta fire his distraction shot against Cell in SSJ rather than in Base, but for the most part they totally ruin powerscaling with their stupid crap. For example, Goku going toe to toe with Kid Buu in SSJ2 but then actually doing worse in SSJ3.
In fact, I bet the reason Super's powerscaling is such a mess is because of Toei because even though there may have been a lot of weirdness in the original manga at least most A > B > C relationships were kept consistent.

[Khin]

But the thing is with Toriyama and the guides most of their mistakes are minor and understandable, whereas with Toei they do totally illogical things and are quite brazen about it, of course there's those rare few times they actually get something right like having Vegeta fire his distraction shot against Cell in SSJ rather than in Base, but for the most part they totally ruin powerscaling with their stupid crap. For example, Goku going toe to toe with Kid Buu in SSJ2 but then actually doing worse in SSJ3.
In fact, I bet the reason Super's powerscaling is such a mess is because of Toei because even though there may have been a lot of weirdness in the original manga at least most A > B > C relationships were kept consistent.

Because some people at Toei just doesn't care about power consistency ? I might not be one of those people, but I've seen and know a lot of people who doesn't care about them either. Especially if Toei writers are thinking that because the series is aimed at kids, they likely wouldn't care about power consistency. It's been the same case for them ever since way back then.

And Toei is not to blame about everything either. As Toriyama himself is very forgetful, which causes some plot holes/inconsistency. Like his original script in RoF where Bulma had met Freeza on Namek which thank god was removed.

It can also be attributed to the fact that Toei has several different writers writing each episodes. Which likely will cause some inconsistency between previous episodes written by other people.

I'm not even sure what Super's power scaling have anything to do with the main point of the thread. Since it's quite obvious where Goku and Vegeta stands each other right now.