The main characters haven't won a single time on their own in Super.

[fadeddreams5]

And if they're even alive, it's because the gods keep interfering.

-Beerus beat Goku, and could have killed everyone if he wanted to.
-Frieza blew up the planet, but got cheated by the gods.
-Goku quit against Hit, who could have killed him if the gods' rules didn't get in the way.
-Zamasu forced Goku to summon a god, who effectively destroyed Trunks' entire universe, technically accomplishing part of what Zamasu sought in the process.

How do you feel about this?

[sintzu]

I like it because it keeps everything unpredictable.

[SaiyanGod117]

I would have liked an alternative solution for the Zamasu dilemma with their own power, though it looked there was no other way, but to call Zeno in. Other than that instance, I see no problems and Super seems to be foreshadowing that the Gods will be less of an help, as help time goes on.

[Boo Machine]

I'm fine with it for the time being. It keeps things interesting. Though now that this trend has been noticed, it might be nice for the main characters to pull a win pretty soon.

[Ki Breaker]

Yes! This actually does nothing to prove the power of ssb either..
So much so that some believe ssg is stronger..
It almost seems they became useless as they attained god powers.. which is a good thing, shows the effort to even try to rise beyond mortality and into the gods realm

[HeroR]

And if they're even alive, it's because the gods keep interfering.

-Beerus beat Goku, and could have killed everyone if he wanted to.
-Frieza blew up the planet, but got cheated by the gods.
-Goku quit against Hit, who could have killed him if the gods' rules didn't get in the way.
-Zamasu forced Goku to summon a god, who effectively destroyed Trunks' entire universe, technically accomplishing part of what Zamasu sought in the process.

How do you feel about this?

The gods interfered with Goku and his friends' lives. They didn't solve the problem, they literally started.

The gods didn't do anything at the tournament except Zen'o accidentally saving the U6 team. Goku forfeited against Hit because Beerus refused to change the rules and wasted his precious time he had with the Kaio-Ken, so he jumped and told Hit to fight him again later. Hit did the same with Monaka, in honor of Goku forfeiting his match. If anything, the gods' inference cost Champa the tournament.

The gods started the entire situation, starting with Gowasu telling Zamasu about the Super Dragon Balls, and Future Zamasu gaining immorality.

Yes! This actually does nothing to prove the power of ssb either..
So much so that some believe ssg is stronger..
It almost seems they became useless as they attained god powers.. which is a good thing, shows the effort to even try to rise beyond mortality and into the gods realm

How does this shows SSG as stronger? It's lost against Beerus and burnt out before the fight was even over. While Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan God proves to be a bette transformation than then the energy sucking Golden Freeza and only lost because of Goku and Vegeta's carelessness.

[TheOverlyMadHatter]

Which is why I'm hoping Beerus telling the Z-Warriors to stop relying on them will mean something in the future.

[HeroR]

Which is why I'm hoping Beerus telling the Z-Warriors to stop relying on them will mean something in the future.

Out of all these conflicts, the gods started three of them, and didn't even help in the Champa Saga since it was the mortals who said, 'screw the gods', after Champa called them pawns. Only with Golden Freeza was the conflict helped by the gods and they didn't start the mess.

It's amazing how people take Beerus' side when he's so full of BS.

[Lord Frieza]

To be far this is the progression of our bad guys. The last main villain Goku beat in a strait fight was Piccolo!

In Dragon Ball Goku was normally powerful enough to beat the main threat on his own but the bad guy would fight dirty and force him to need help during some of the final fights.

Z was the era were the bad guys go so tough that Goku almost always needed help to beat the main villain. Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu, Goku had help to beat them all one way or another.

Super is the era were the threats are so powerful and so dangers that our heroes should count themselves lucky they are not dead yet!

[Cetra]

Whenever main characters win on their own people come and say "GT sucks, Goku is the only one with a chance against the main villain".

[Jinzoningen MULE]

There are those other, albeit lesser fight that they have won. Vegeta killed Ginyu, Goku defeated Pooh, Vegeta defeated Frost, Metalgata, and Cyanbe. So they have won before

I promise I know their names, I just got bored.

[Lord Frieza]

There are those other, albeit lesser fight that they have won. Vegeta killed Ginyu, Goku defeated Pooh, Vegeta defeated Frost, Metalgata, and Cyanbe. So they have won before

I promise I know their names, I just got bored.

On the subject of Magetta...how the hell dose....

this (mazinger z)


and this (getter robo)


....make this!

[ChronoTwigger]

There are those other, albeit lesser fight that they have won. Vegeta killed Ginyu, Goku defeated Pooh, Vegeta defeated Frost, Metalgata, and Cyanbe. So they have won before

I promise I know their names, I just got bored.

On the subject of Magetta...how the hell dose....

this (mazinger z)


and this (getter robo)


....make this!

Totally OT: i'm so in love of Getter Robot to quote you only to have it appear twice in the thread.

[Lord Beerus]

I actually prefer it this way. Keep us, the viewers, on our toes constantly. You never truly guess what will happen next, because anybody could be thrown into the mix of the progressing plot.

[Lord Frieza]

Totally OT: i'm so in love of Getter Robot to quote you only to have it appear twice in the thread.

Nice to meet a fellow Getter fan. I love all Nagai's super robots, my personal favorite is....

[Lionel]

Decisive failure in battle doesn't rest solely on the shoulders of the opponents for trouncing the protagonists fair & square; more often than not, some kind of forgetfulness is ailing the character in question. Did Goku ever bother to use the Roshambo to gouge out Hit's eyes, call upon the techniques of his friends like Taiyoken and Kienzan to fatally dismember Beerus, or use the Kaioken earlier against Black/Zamasu? Vegeta had ample opportunity to obliterate Freeza right after beginning the fight. He could have also resorted to a self-explosion manoeuvre against Black during their first bout and killed him right then and there. His soul would have been confined to the future afterlife, but at least there would be a tangible world remaining for Trunks and Mai to call their own instead of being relegated to someone else's universe as a stateless refugee. The group could call upon Elder Kaioshin to accompany them into the future, transfer his life to Piccolo or Kami, reconstitute the Earth's Dragon Balls, use them to restore the Namekians to life if they're actually dead with the first wish (optional), and then use the second wish to resurrect Vegeta.

Yes, it keeps things interesting when Goku isn't predictably winning every climactic fight single-handedly. However, it can't be denied that some measure of authorial restraint is being exerted to deter the characters from using every known resource at their disposal.

[sintzu]

In Dragon Ball Goku was normally powerful enough to beat the main threat on his own but the bad guy would fight dirty and force him to need help during some of the final fights.

Z was the era were the bad guys go so tough that Goku almost always needed help to beat the main villain. Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu, Goku had help to beat them all one way or another.

Super is the era were the threats are so powerful and so dangers that our heroes should count themselves lucky they are not dead yet!

This is a really good observation, I never thought about it like this.

The exception in Z was Freeza cause Goku fought him in his Ssj form 1 on 1 and won.

[Lord Frieza]

In Dragon Ball Goku was normally powerful enough to beat the main threat on his own but the bad guy would fight dirty and force him to need help during some of the final fights.

Z was the era were the bad guys go so tough that Goku almost always needed help to beat the main villain. Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu, Goku had help to beat them all one way or another.

Super is the era were the threats are so powerful and so dangers that our heroes should count themselves lucky they are not dead yet!

This is a really good observation, I never thought about it like this.

The exception in Z was Freeza cause Goku fought him in his Ssj form 1 on 1 and won.

Thats true but that was only after going SS, before that Frieza had Goku on the ropes and would have killed him if not the others.

Frieza really did have Goku outmatched, he was almost 50x Goku's base power and every attack or plan Goku tried to pull off failed. It would not be until Super when Goku would start finding himself in that kind of situation again.

[Cipher]

I hope this trend continues just long enough to make a proper victory against an appropriately despicable villain feel genuinely cathartic.

Which may or may not be after this arc. Not sure.

There's a prose poet I really enjoy who wrote four books about death and illness, then a fifth about pleasure. That one about pleasure is emotionally ruining after spending so long with the former.

Not to compare Dragon Ball to that, least of all Super, but same principle.

[MozillaVulpix]

I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I really enjoy how Super isn't going out of its way to make Goku (and Vegeta) the clear, undeniable, top dogs of the universe. By contrast, they're pretty small-fry compared to the gods and even Hit (in the anime). Heck, Zamasu stealing Goku's body ended up making him get even stronger than Goku!

The only issue with it is it means there doesn't feel like there's any clear progression for them. We know they've started at the bottom of the god hierarchy, but are we ever going to see them try and move their way up? It feels like they're almost stuck there at the bottom and even though they train, it won't make them improve. And it's hard to feel compelled to watch characters who aren't going to improve.