How powerful was Present Zamasu?

[Angelus]

The one that's not immortal. Is he only SSJ2 level? Meaning, significantly less powerful than Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku? Or is he so powerful than he could easily beat SSJ Goku, back during Goku's second DBS fight with Beerus, after his SSJG power wore off and was just fighting while in SSJ form? SSJ is lower than SSJ2 afterall

[Rubens]

No offense, but there's a powerlevel discussion thread already where you can ask this. Anyway, to answer your question, in the anime (don't remember which episode though) Goku goes with Beerus and Whis to meet Zamasu and while sparring, Goku as a SSj2 beats Zamasu without much effort. Remember that current SSj2 Goku is far stronger than what they were in Boo arc - if we use the potafeu arc as reference, SSj3 Gotenks (who presumably is about the same strength as back then) was nothing compared to base Vegeta.

[Lord Beerus]

Mid tier SSJ2 level at best. SSJ2 Goku would have kicked his ass if he took the fight seriously.

[Angelus]

Mid tier SSJ2 level at best. SSJ2 Goku would have kicked his ass if he took the fight seriously.

No offense, but there's a powerlevel discussion thread already where you can ask this. Anyway, to answer your question, in the anime (don't remember which episode though) Goku goes with Beerus and Whis to meet Zamasu and while sparring, Goku as a SSj2 beats Zamasu without much effort. Remember that current SSj2 Goku is far stronger than what they were in Boo arc - if we use the potafeu arc as reference, SSj3 Gotenks (who presumably is about the same strength as back then) was nothing compared to base Vegeta.

But by SSJ2, do you mean the normal SSJ2? Or a SSJ2 that has a base of someone more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks to begin with?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Mid tier SSJ2 level at best. SSJ2 Goku would have kicked his ass if he took the fight seriously.

No offense, but there's a powerlevel discussion thread already where you can ask this. Anyway, to answer your question, in the anime (don't remember which episode though) Goku goes with Beerus and Whis to meet Zamasu and while sparring, Goku as a SSj2 beats Zamasu without much effort. Remember that current SSj2 Goku is far stronger than what they were in Boo arc - if we use the potafeu arc as reference, SSj3 Gotenks (who presumably is about the same strength as back then) was nothing compared to base Vegeta.

But by SSJ2, do you mean the normal SSJ2? Or a SSJ2 that has a base of someone more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks to begin with?

Normal SSJ2, Goku was not using any God ki when he wrecked Zamasu, plus there's no indication that they can even use SSJ with God ki anymore, they'd turn into SSBlue if they did.

[Angelus]

So his base is already more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks... but when he turns SSJ2, he's only significantly more powerful as his Buu Arc SSJ2 self? So possibly Fat Buu tier?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So his base is already more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks... but when he turns SSJ2, he's only significantly more powerful as his Buu Arc SSJ2 self? So possibly Fat Buu tier?

Fat Buu would get wasted by current SSJ2 Goku, his power is closer to SSJ3 than SSJ2 now. Even Zamasu could beat Fat Buu.

[Angelus]

But that would mean his SSJ2 would be weaker than his base, which is more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks already

[ChiefWamsutta]

So his base is already more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks... but when he turns SSJ2, he's only significantly more powerful as his Buu Arc SSJ2 self? So possibly Fat Buu tier?

There's no such thing as Saiyan Beyond God, where God Ki is within the Base form. BUT before RoF in DBS when Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis, they train their Base forms. Whis emphasizes that they need to grow their Base forms to get stronger. They only do so a little bit, UNTIL they are told to condense their ki inside themselves so it does not leak out. They train a fair amount without their ki leaking out.

Beerus instructs Whis to send Goku and Vegeta inside Whis' staff. In order to even move inside Whis' staff dimension, Goku and Vegeta must condense their ki inside themselves. It is shown that they train a great amount inside the staff. Their bodies would most likely understand the feeling of keeping their ki inside themselves since they practice with it a lot. Think of this similar to Ultimate Gohan. When Goku and Vegeta condense their ki inside Base form they become much stronger. This is why his Base form is shown to be so powerful, but can still be sensed, meaning it does not have God Ki.

Basically ... Ki-Condensed Base Goku = Ki-Condensed Base Vegeta >> SS3 Gotenks >> SS2 Goku (DBS) > SS2 Goku (Buu Saga) >> Base Goku (DBS) > Base Goku (Buu Saga).

You can take this or leave this idea, but with a show that has shitty powerscaling, this makes some sense.

[Mazingerdestro]

Stronger than ssj3 Goku but weaker than ssj2 goku+God ki

[Freezerbaby]

So his base is already more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks... but when he turns SSJ2, he's only significantly more powerful as his Buu Arc SSJ2 self? So possibly Fat Buu tier?

There's no such thing as Saiyan Beyond God, where God Ki is within the Base form. BUT before RoF in DBS when Goku and Vegeta are training with Whis, they train their Base forms. Whis emphasizes that they need to grow their Base forms to get stronger. They only do so a little bit, UNTIL they are told to condense their ki inside themselves so it does not leak out. They train a fair amount without their ki leaking out.

Beerus instructs Whis to send Goku and Vegeta inside Whis' staff. In order to even move inside Whis' staff dimension, Goku and Vegeta must condense their ki inside themselves. It is shown that they train a great amount inside the staff. Their bodies would most likely understand the feeling of keeping their ki inside themselves since they practice with it a lot. Think of this similar to Ultimate Gohan. When Goku and Vegeta condense their ki inside Base form they become much stronger. This is why his Base form is shown to be so powerful, but can still be sensed, meaning it does not have God Ki.

Basically ... Ki-Condensed Base Goku = Ki-Condensed Base Vegeta >> SS3 Gotenks >> SS2 Goku (DBS) > SS2 Goku (Buu Saga) >> Base Goku (DBS) > Base Goku (Buu Saga).

You can take this or leave this idea, but with a show that has shitty powerscaling, this makes some sense.

I think you really nailed it calling their super strong base forms "Ki-condensed", it´s pretty clear that the base goku that took on final form freeza is above his ssj3 form as well as the base goku that took on frost is about equal to his form before super, my thought is that they just can choose wheter they use their ki-condensed base forms or normal base forms and the writters can use this for the sake of the show.

So Present Zamasu is undoubtedly below ssj2, I would place him around Perfect Cell level

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think you really nailed it calling their super strong base forms "Ki-condensed" ...

Thanks, man. To me I could always see both sides of the Two-Base Theory. Yes -- there is evidence that their Base forms are really strong, but also can be weak. No -- there is never any instance of the God Ki in their Base forms.

I thought, well, how can we make this work? The episode of Goku and Vegeta learning to condense their ki inside themselves worked. That fact that they had to not let their ki leak out to train in Whis' staff made me feel that their bodies would understand how to push the ki out or keep it in.

Boom! Two Base Theory solved! Ki-Condensed Base is not the same as Saiyan Beyond God.

Before DBS: Goku has Base < SS < SS2 < SS3

After Training with Whis between BoG and RoF: Goku has Base < SS < SS2 < SS3 << Ki-Condensed Base < SSB

Ki-Condensed Base Goku vs. Final Form Frieza (Post-Training)
SSB Goku vs. Golden Frieza

Base Goku vs. Botamo
Base Goku vs. Frost
Ki-Condensed Base Goku vs. Hit (He knew how powerful Hit was, so he wouldn't go Base)
SSB Goku vs. Hit
SSB KKx10 Goku vs. Hit

SS3 Gotenks vs. Ki-Condensed Base Copy-Vegeta (If he can take Vegeta's SSB form, why can't he do this?)
Ki-Condensed Base Goku vs. Ki-Condensed Base Copy-Vegeta
SSB Goku vs. SSB Copy-Vegeta

Again, DBS does not make any of this clear. But I'm trying to make it clear for people, haha

[HeroR]

I think you really nailed it calling their super strong base forms "Ki-condensed", it´s pretty clear that the base goku that took on final form freeza is above his ssj3 form as well as the base goku that took on frost is about equal to his form before super, my thought is that they just can choose wheter they use their ki-condensed base forms or normal base forms and the writters can use this for the sake of the show.

So Present Zamasu is undoubtedly below ssj2, I would place him around Perfect Cell level

Present Zamasu is way above Perfect Cell. When Goku went Super Saiyan 2, Gowasu said that Goku's power rivals a God of Destruction. Which makes no sense if he was only as strong as Perfect Cell, someone East Supreme Kai of U7 can challenged and he's the weakest Supreme Kai in U7. The strongest Supreme Kai could challenge Kid Buu.

Goku's base form is stronger than it ever we during the Buu Saga, which naturally makes his base form stronger. As just a normal Super Saiyan, Goku could fight and take hits from Beerus, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Present Zamasu is way above Perfect Cell. When Goku went Super Saiyan 2, Gowasu said that Goku's power rivals a God of Destruction. Which makes no sense if he was only as strong as Perfect Cell, someone East Supreme Kai of U7 can challenged and he's the weakest Supreme Kai in U7. The strongest Supreme Kai could challenge Kid Buu.

Goku's base form is stronger than it ever we during the Buu Saga, which naturally makes his base form stronger. As just a normal Super Saiyan, Goku could fight and take hits from Beerus, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted.

Beerus corrects Gowasu when he says Goku rivals the power of the gods.

What you're saying makes no sense. If you believe that Goku's SS2 is two times his Super Saiyan that he fought Beerus with in outer space, then this would make Goku's SS2 = SSG*2.

This would mean SS2 Future Trunks, who was able to push SS2 Goku back, is near SSG*2 power. This means Future Trunks went from SS Grade 3 level to SSGod*2 level all by himself with maybe some Z sword training.

This means that Frost would be around a SSGod. That makes no sense. Frost is essentially Universe 6 Frieza. Frieza only trained under an extreme circumstance, so Frost would have no reason to either. Frost barely had control over his Final Form, while Frieza achieved a Golden form.

[HeroR]

Present Zamasu is way above Perfect Cell. When Goku went Super Saiyan 2, Gowasu said that Goku's power rivals a God of Destruction. Which makes no sense if he was only as strong as Perfect Cell, someone East Supreme Kai of U7 can challenged and he's the weakest Supreme Kai in U7. The strongest Supreme Kai could challenge Kid Buu.

Goku's base form is stronger than it ever we during the Buu Saga, which naturally makes his base form stronger. As just a normal Super Saiyan, Goku could fight and take hits from Beerus, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted.

Beerus corrects Gowasu when he says Goku rivals the power of the gods.

What you're saying makes no sense. If you believe that Goku's SS2 is two times his Super Saiyan that he fought Beerus with in outer space, then this would make Goku's SS2 = SSG*2.

This would mean SS2 Future Trunks, who was able to push SS2 Goku back, is near SSG*2 power. This means Future Trunks went from SS Grade 3 level to SSGod*2 level all by himself with maybe some Z sword training.

This means that Frost would be around a SSGod. That makes no sense. Frost is essentially Universe 6 Frieza. Frieza only trained under an extreme circumstance, so Frost would have no reason to either. Frost barely had control over his Final Form, while Frieza achieved a Golden form.

Beerus didn't correct Gowasu. He was insulted that he compared Goku's power to him, not some random God of Destruction. He did the same thing when Goku said that Zamasu could surpass him someday.

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying because I don't believe in the two base theory. There has been nothing saying or hinting that Goku has a weak base and super strong base that he turns on an off other than fans trying to make certain characters weaker than what they are. At the very least Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God. And Trunks didn't push Super Saiyan 2 Goku. All Goku did was block his attacks and then caught Trunks' fits with ease. He didn't struggle and Trunks didn't even hurt him.

Frost isn't a lazy ass like Freeza since he was actually out in the field fighting and playing hero, while Freeza sat on his throne and lord everyone as ruler of the universe. Also, where was it said that Frost barely had control over his true form? The only person who said that was Frost, who is a known lair, so everything that comes out of his mouth is suspect. Frost maybe Freeza's U6 counterpart, but he isn't Freeza. He is stronger than Freeza even after training, but he lacks Freeza's golden from, which is why he falls behind Freeza.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Frost maybe Freeza's U6 counterpart, but he isn't Freeza. He is stronger than Freeza even after training, but he lacks Freeza's golden from, which is why he falls behind Freeza.

Explain to me the key reason for Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to not let their ki leak out then.

Also, explain to me how Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is more powerful than Frost. When did Vegeta's Base get as strong as Goku's Base?

[HeroR]

Frost maybe Freeza's U6 counterpart, but he isn't Freeza. He is stronger than Freeza even after training, but he lacks Freeza's golden from, which is why he falls behind Freeza.

Explain to me the key reason for Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to not let their ki leak out then.

Also, explain to me how Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is more powerful than Frost. When did Vegeta's Base get as strong as Goku's Base?

Whis is telling them to not to leak ki because it's energy efficient not to waste energy. That is something that both Korin and Kami talk about, no wasteful movements or making poor choices that waste a lot of energy. Keeping their ki in their bodies doesn't automatically make them stronger. Especially when such a thing has never been stated. Goku also called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form with great ki control and it's a calm transformation, which links to them not draining energy from just standing around.

Vegeta's base form got on par with Goku after he spent six months of training with Whis. It's in Episode 18 when Goku is surprised by how much stronger Vegeta became, even saying that he may have surpassed him. And that is before Whis started telling them about their ki leakage. Which stands to reason Super Saiyan Vegeta is just as strong as Super Saiyan Goku since their base forms are even.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But that would mean his SSJ2 would be weaker than his base, which is more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks already

I'm a proponent of the 2 base theory. It just makes far more sense than Piccolo suddenly becoming Vegetto tier for no reason. Basically the theory is that Goku and Vegeta can emulate God ki by condensing their ki and preventing it from leaking, Whis trained them to do this in the F arc, by doing this they are capable of powering their bases up to God tier.

[Freezerbaby]

Frost maybe Freeza's U6 counterpart, but he isn't Freeza. He is stronger than Freeza even after training, but he lacks Freeza's golden from, which is why he falls behind Freeza.

Explain to me the key reason for Whis teaching Goku and Vegeta to not let their ki leak out then.

Also, explain to me how Vegeta's Super Saiyan form is more powerful than Frost. When did Vegeta's Base get as strong as Goku's Base?

Whis is telling them to not to leak ki because it's energy efficient not to waste energy. That is something that both Korin and Kami talk about, no wasteful movements or making poor choices that waste a lot of energy. Keeping their ki in their bodies doesn't automatically make them stronger. Especially when such a thing has never been stated. Goku also called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan a form with great ki control and it's a calm transformation, which links to them not draining energy from just standing around.

Vegeta's base form got on par with Goku after he spent six months of training with Whis. It's in Episode 18 when Goku is surprised by how much stronger Vegeta became, even saying that he may have surpassed him. And that is before Whis started telling them about their ki leakage. Which stands to reason Super Saiyan Vegeta is just as strong as Super Saiyan Goku since their base forms are even.

then how would you explain Cabba, who never had achieved any ssj transformation, being on par to base vegeta ? in fact, Cabba turned into ssj for first time, which would place around ssj goku namek level, that´s why the two bases theory makes completely sense, since it´s impossible that that base vegeta was using the same strenght than base copy-vegeta did against ssj3 gotenks.

[VegettoEX]

As has been noted, these kinds of discussions are more appropriate for the existing strength debate/conversation threads. Thank you!