The morality of this arc is "Give up"

[dbs fanboy]

A few days ago i started to see (as per usual) a lot of complaints from db fans in youtube towards ep 67 and the ending of the arc. But, among all the repetitive stupid rants, there was one gripe that was interesting (while i disagree with it), and it was that this ending (while being dark) it added nothing and it felt pointless because there was nothing to learn from here and because it has nothing that would make you think deeply about it or anything like that.

But after rewatching ep 50 and 51 during my marathon of the arc, i realized that not only this kind of ending was foreshadowed from the beginning but the morality behind it. I still remember that beautiful scene where Vegeta told Trunks not to give up and then Beerus said that there are times where one should know when to do it, and at first i thought that this was just a random line added by Toei, but knowing the ending of this story, it has more meaning behind because i'm starting to think that knowing how stubborn were the antagonist and main characters in defending their ideals, the only way posible to find a solution to the problem was to surrender.

Why? because in the end, nobody won,the justice lost , and this is funny because i've just realized as well that somehow this arc has no villain. Zamasu is viewed as a villain by Trunks and co and the audience as we were rooting for Trunks, but in Zamasu's point of view, he was the good guy wanting to save the world from the bad guys (mortals). He's not like Kid Buu, who was evil and acknowledged this, or Freeza or King Piccolo, antagonists that just liked being the bad guys.

Both Zamasu and Trunks wanted to save the world/Future. Trunks wanted to do it by killing the bad guy something that he was able to do and for some time he won, but then everything was spoiled once everyone died and Zeno destroyed everything. Zamasu also wanted to do the same succeeding for a short amount of time and then failing,again, because Zeno destroyed everything.

Now think about it, if Zamasu had given up and decided to not kill the mortals, nothing would have been destroyed. He could have made a deal with Trunks and the earthlings/mortals, leaving them alone but warning them that he would keep a watch on them and that in case they started destroying "God's creation" he would attack them, and that's it, i doubt that Trunks would allow anything like that happen, and i doubt any mortal would dare to do it knowing that there's an inmortal god that could destroy them in that case and boom everyone is happy.

Or, Trunks could have given up trying to save the future and focused on saving the earthlings instead of trying to kill "the villain". And it wasn't imposible, he could have just taken them to the main timeline and leave Zamasu alone in the future, thus saving his people while at the same time the "evil Kaioshin" gets what he wants, and boom everyone is happy.

What do you guys think?

[Abra kadabra]

I thought the same thing but questioned the message it would send to the young adults and children the show is aimed at. Trunks' character symbolizes hope and he pretty much lost in a situation that was impossible to win. Maybe realizing that you can't win them all and that it's okay to give up in certain circumstances is a lesson worth teaching. Idk the ending depressed me. I don't really like thinking about it.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I thought the lesson was sort of even if you dont win there may be another battle to fight tomorrow. Not to dwell on what cant be changed.

[Sodhi]

This arc had many mixed messages. However what I found wrong was that they showed zamasu as an extremist, and in the end he went out killing everyone. He was kinda successful in enforcing his justice.

[Lord Beerus]

I think the morale is more even if you try your hardest you can still come up short. Yeah, it's a pretty sombre morale to teach, especially for a kids show like Dragon Ball (Super), but it's the stone cold truth. It's reality in its purest form. Just because you try your hardest doesn't mean you will always succeed or come out on top.

[ekrolo2]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

[dbs fanboy]

Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

I wonder if the kids would be able to take that.......... And i mean current kids, i still remember that time when in freaking Doraemon a guy tried to kill himself after being exposed to one of Doraemon's gadgets

[HeroR]

I think the morale is more even if you try your hardest you can still come up short. Yeah, it's a pretty sombre morale to teach, especially for a kids show like Dragon Ball (Super), but it's the stone cold truth. It's reality in its purest form. Just because you try your hardest doesn't mean you will always succeed or come out on top.

If there was a higher moral, that would be it. Some times, your best isn't good enough and even using all the resources all your hand doesn't promised a happy ending. It's what you chose to do after you lose that decides if it was all in vain.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

To be fair, you'd also have to question how Gohan didn't grow up to become a maniac with the all the shit that happened to him as a kid. Also, I think "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" is quite a cynical way to look it at. Yes, Future Trunks in the end couldn't protect his world, and he even admits it himself, but he understands that he has to learn to also move on from his failure, pick himself and try life the rest of the day as content as he can be. You can't move forward looking back. What's done is done. And it comes back to more interpretation of the moral of the arc being that even your best may not be good enough. Which is a very real lesson to teach as it's happened to everyone at least once in their lifetime. It's really a case of how you deal with that scenario that really defines your character. Some people become so downbeat over that they never try hard again, while others just dust themselves of and think about how much they will try again next time.

[HeroR]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

Even in real life, not everyone become suicidal after losing everything. Some people actually come out of the other side stronger and better than they ever were. Just look at the many Holocaust stories where people literally lost everything: their country, their homes their families, their dignity. Many came out of the other side and spread what they learned to others.

[ekrolo2]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

To be fair, you'd also have to question how Gohan didn't grow up to become a maniac with the all the shit that happened to him as a kid. Also, I think "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" is quite a cynical way to look it at. Yes, Future Trunks in the end couldn't protect his world, and he even admits it himself, but he understands that he has to learn to also move on from his failure, pick himself and try life the rest of the day as content as he can be. You can't move forward looking back. What's done is done. And it comes back to more interpretation of the moral of the arc being that even your best may not be good enough. Which is a very real lesson to teach as it's happened to everyone at least once in their lifetime. It's really a case of how you deal with that scenario that really defines your character. Some people become so downbeat over that they never try hard again, while others just dust themselves of and think about how much they will try again next time.

There is no picking yourself up from this: his entire reality is gone. Everything he did, his mom did, Gohan did was factually for nothing. So for nothing they all might as well have gone full on planet Miranda from Serenity and just sat until they slowly died of starvation. This isn't him losing a single person or just one planet, his entire reality is gone and he has to live in some copy of it from now on.

I don't give a fuck how you try to spin this: Trunks should either swallowing the barrel of a gun at the end of this or becoming an insane Blood Knight looking to die in battle. The fact he's already screwed up something fierce from the get go makes a complete psychotic break all the more likely.

I also wouldn't use the moronic tone of episode 67 as trying to send a message. The implications of this entire event are so soul crushingly depressing and the episode so badly reflects this that trying to pass this off as Super trying to send a message is laughable to me. This show is too shit at writing for me to ever give it that credit and unlike the pride disucssion in the Battle of Gods movie which is constantly built up to throughout the whole thing, this non-existent message of "your best isn't good enough sometimes" comes out of nowhere in the last episode and isn't reflected well in the episode.

[Lord Beerus]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

To be fair, you'd also have to question how Gohan didn't grow up to become a maniac with the all the shit that happened to him as a kid. Also, I think "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" is quite a cynical way to look it at. Yes, Future Trunks in the end couldn't protect his world, and he even admits it himself, but he understands that he has to learn to also move on from his failure, pick himself and try life the rest of the day as content as he can be. You can't move forward looking back. What's done is done. And it comes back to more interpretation of the moral of the arc being that even your best may not be good enough. Which is a very real lesson to teach as it's happened to everyone at least once in their lifetime. It's really a case of how you deal with that scenario that really defines your character. Some people become so downbeat over that they never try hard again, while others just dust themselves of and think about how much they will try again next time.

There is no picking yourself up from this: his entire reality is gone. Everything he did, his mom did, Gohan did was factually for nothing. So for nothing they all might as well have gone full on planet Miranda from Serenity and just sat until they slowly died of starvation. This isn't him losing a single person or just one planet, his entire reality is gone and he has to live in some copy of it from now on.

I don't give a fuck how you try to spin this: Trunks should either swallowing the barrel of a gun at the end of this or becoming an insane Blood Knight looking to die in battle. The fact he's already screwed up something fierce from the get go makes a complete psychotic break all the more likely.

I also wouldn't use the moronic tone of episode 67 as trying to send a message. The implications of this entire event are so soul crushingly depressing and the episode so badly reflects this that trying to pass this off as Super trying to send a message is laughable to me. This show is too shit at writing for me to ever give it that credit and unlike the pride disucssion in the Battle of Gods movie which is constantly built up to throughout the whole thing, this non-existent message of "your best isn't good enough sometimes" comes out of nowhere in the last episode and isn't reflected well in the episode.

There's no denying Future Trunks has lost everything has every right to depressed over it, but that doesn't me he should be. Some people lose everything; their family, home, wealth, business and can end up homeless but that doesn't automatically lead to them losing their sanity and wanting to become suicidal. Yes, they can be depressed over it, but some people have a strong enough will to pick themselves back up and contemplate how to start over with their life. I mean, in Future Trunks case, his upbringing was a broken and sad one given that Androids rampage happened started when he was an infant. But despite all that he never really became cynical, he still maintained the hope that humanity could survive and fought for many years never losing hope, even when it seemed obvious he couldn't prevail. I mean, the whole Future Trunks went back in time in the first place was because he and Bulma came to realisation that with their own devices they couldn't defeat the Androids.

What I'm trying to say is that not every person will crack like an egg under extreme scenario. Some people have the will to carry after hitting rock bottom and losing it all and other don't. And Future Trunks has that resolve. His character is based around his insane determination and optimism. He's lost everything and is certainly upset over it, but he knows that he can live another live and create happy memories even if the world he will be doing it isn't his own. Just the fact he can live a relatively happy life is enough for Future Trunks'.

[dbs fanboy]

I'd say its "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" which is a cool message if the show did anything with it. And no, the ending we got doesn't count. Trunks and Mai should be suicidal at the end of this farce of a story.

To be fair, you'd also have to question how Gohan didn't grow up to become a maniac with the all the shit that happened to him as a kid. Also, I think "everything you've ever worked for means nothing" is quite a cynical way to look it at. Yes, Future Trunks in the end couldn't protect his world, and he even admits it himself, but he understands that he has to learn to also move on from his failure, pick himself and try life the rest of the day as content as he can be. You can't move forward looking back. What's done is done. And it comes back to more interpretation of the moral of the arc being that even your best may not be good enough. Which is a very real lesson to teach as it's happened to everyone at least once in their lifetime. It's really a case of how you deal with that scenario that really defines your character. Some people become so downbeat over that they never try hard again, while others just dust themselves of and think about how much they will try again next time.

There is no picking yourself up from this: his entire reality is gone. Everything he did, his mom did, Gohan did was factually for nothing. So for nothing they all might as well have gone full on planet Miranda from Serenity and just sat until they slowly died of starvation. This isn't him losing a single person or just one planet, his entire reality is gone and he has to live in some copy of it from now on.

I don't give a fuck how you try to spin this: Trunks should either swallowing the barrel of a gun at the end of this or becoming an insane Blood Knight looking to die in battle. The fact he's already screwed up something fierce from the get go makes a complete psychotic break all the more likely.

I also wouldn't use the moronic tone of episode 67 as trying to send a message. The implications of this entire event are so soul crushingly depressing and the episode so badly reflects this that trying to pass this off as Super trying to send a message is laughable to me. This show is too shit at writing for me to ever give it that credit and unlike the pride disucssion in the Battle of Gods movie which is constantly built up to throughout the whole thing, this non-existent message of "your best isn't good enough sometimes" comes out of nowhere in the last episode and isn't reflected well in the episode.

Actually no, while it was definitely an unexpected ending that seemed to came out of nowhere, there were already hints about what was going to happen (in both ep 66 and ep 67)
As i said before, in ep 50 for example we got two contradictory messages, the first one with Vegeta telling Trunks: "Don't give up, there's always a way" and the second one with Beerus saying that sometimes you need to learn when to give up.

During the entirety of the arc our heroes have been winning to fail and trying different things to succeed. In fact, during the entirety of the arc you get the feeling that they might lose and in the end everyone lost, not just the antagonist, not just the hero, everyone.
In fact i still remember that the first thing that Merged Zamasu said was: "My form is justice, my form is the world", and in #67 he literally became the universe.
You can dislike it if you want but it is not like it was something that Toei suddenly decided to add.

[ekrolo2]

There's no denying Future Trunks has lost everything has every right to depressed over it, but that doesn't me he should be. Some people lose everything; their family, home, wealth, business and can end up homeless but that doesn't automatically lead to them losing their sanity and wanting to become suicidal. Yes, they can be depressed over it, but some people have a strong enough will to pick themselves back up and contemplate how to start over with their life. I mean, in Future Trunks case, his upbringing was a broken and sad one given that Androids rampage happened started when he was an infant. But despite all that he never really became cynical, he still maintained the hope that humanity could survive and fought for many years never losing hope, even when it seemed obvious he couldn't prevail. I mean, the whole Future Trunks went back in time in the first place was because he and Bulma came to realisation that with their own devices they couldn't defeat the Androids.

What I'm trying to say is that not every person will crack like an egg under extreme scenario. Some people have the will to carry after hitting rock bottom and losing it all and other don't. And Future Trunks has that resolve. His character is based around his insane determination and optimism. He's lost everything and is certainly upset over it, but he knows that he can live another live and create happy memories even if the world he will be doing it isn't his own. Just the fact he can live a relatively happy life is enough for Future Trunks'.

Trunks' resolve would make more sense if he wasn't already falling to pieces throughout a lot of this arc. He's showing some good signs of PTSD and pretty much loses the will to fight after their initial trip into the future. Him losing everything and everything he's worked towards as a consequence of kind of inventing Black should send him past the edge, he's certainly already skirting towards it well enough before Zeno destroys everything.

If the arc played this off as the only thing to shake him I might be able to buy it more but with the way the arc is written, this is the equivalent of writing Batman as borderline murderous for an entire story then when Joker skins Damian alive he doesn't completely snap but instead just sends Joker to Arkham and goes about his business as if nothing happened.

Maybe this is just me being a cynical prick but if you're gonna do something as horrible to a character as Super does to Trunks, I expect more than som bizarre quasi-happy ending to it that goes completely against the implications of the material. Dragon Ball certainly loves to handwave stuff like this but this isn't like Vegeta's body count from his Freeza servant days where you don't see most of it, we see everything Trunks has worked towards get annihilated and he's less bothered by this than he was when Goku Black kicked him, Goku and Vegeta back into the past for the first time.

Actually no, while it was definitely an unexpected ending that seemed to came out of nowhere, there were already hints about what was going to happen (in both ep 66 and ep 67)
As i said before, in ep 50 for example we got two contradictory messages, the first one with Vegeta telling Trunks: "Don't give up, there's always a way" and the second one with Beerus saying that sometimes you need to learn when to give up.

During the entirety of the arc our heroes have been winning to fail and trying different things to succeed. In fact, during the entirety of the arc you get the feeling that they might lose and in the end everyone lost, not just the antagonist, not just the hero, everyone.
In fact i still remember that the first thing that Merged Zamasu said was: "My form is justice, my form is the world", and in #67 he literally became the universe.
You can dislike it if you want but it is not like it was something that Toei suddenly decided to add.

The heroes try and fail all the time in every Dragon Ball arc with things progressively getting worse and worse every time it happens. This isn't something unique or surprising to the Black arc nor does one contradictory message from episode 50 sow the seeds of an ongoing plot thread. This isn't like how the human vs God thing is an actual theme by vritue of the story actually keeping it relevant throughout most of the story: Trunks' shit literally only comes in the last two episodes of the arc which are also filled with some of the biggest loads of horse shit writing I've ever seen.

I don't dislike the idea, I think its a fine message to bring up the fact that sometimes being too stuborn at something is gonna get you nothing but grief instead of satisfaction. Its the same reason why I like the Shadow Dragon arc, Toriyama's stance that the DBs are a good thing is wholly moronic because their virtues/cons depend entirely on who uses them, they're not inherently a positive thing to have around. The Shadow Dragon arc shows us that there are consequences to that and builds an entire story around it.

The Black arc doesn't do this with Trunks' "message". It brings it up once, forgets it exists for 15 episodes then decides its a theme again.

[goku the krump dancer]

I think the morale is more even if you try your hardest you can still come up short. Yeah, it's a pretty sombre morale to teach, especially for a kids show like Dragon Ball (Super), but it's the stone cold truth. It's reality in its purest form. Just because you try your hardest doesn't mean you will always succeed or come out on top.

When your hardest isnt good enough, you then must do whatever it takes! Press the Zen-Oh button!

[dbs fanboy]

Well lets stop with the whole "they should feel like this or that" the ending of this arc didn't show us in detail how exactly were they feeling. What we know is that Mai was broken after Zamasu killed everyone and regained a little bit of hope thinking on living with the guys that she failed to protect (a different version), and in the end we saw Trunks being sad and feeling terrible because in the end he failed but he got a little happy knowing that at least Gohan (that reminded him a lot of his other version) and other characters from the main timeline wished him luck and wanted the best for him, he still had them.
So long story short, they acknowledge the fact that they failed but the main timeline's characters are sort of cheering them up, at least they are still there, i can't imagine how would things be if every single timeline were destroyed and the only one that survived was Trunks alone without nobody else.

We don't actually know what happens or will happen afterwards so there's no point in keep arguing about it.

[Lord Frieza]

Reminds me of the end of one of my favorite manga, the few panels start with the hero and villains's army about to clash. After a few big set pieces we see the villain sitting alone next to the body of the fallen hero in the middle of a ravage world were everything and every one is dead. And in that moment the villain realizes that it was all for nothing, he who was once a savior is now the hypocritical monster that he once battled long ago, he's destroyed the world and killed the person he loved, the hero. In the end all he can do is ask himself the question "Why are you cry?".

Not quite the same thing but is the same kind of bleak, everyone lost ending.

[DragonBallLove]

This arc ending teaches us one of the most important, universal and eternal truths in the universe:

SHIT HAPPENS

[Kanassa]

This arc ending teaches us one of the most important, universal and eternal truths in the universe:

SHIT HAPPENS

''Shit happens."
"Shit happens?"
"Shit.... Happens"

[ChronoTwigger]

MORALE is, for stories, the philosophical gantry that sustain and inspire the plot. Mostly, is unseen and untold.
Usually we search morale by the main character actions, but that's not always true.
For example, what's the morale of SnowWhite? The morale, by the original story, is the one of the evil queen: all the evil you do for vanity will backfire to yourself. SnowWhite she's almost just a victim and bystander of the events.
The same is for Cinderella: in that original story the prince cut the feets of all the sisters that want to cheat him (Disney story was edulcorated).

The same is for this arc, you need to read it from Zamasu perspective. Trunks was the victim, Goku was the witness. Zamasu was the "moral" character.
"A corrupted ambition could corrupt yourself".
Zamasu was driven insane by an insane ambition, beaten up by mortals,he's own vanity destroyed (he become a kinda monster in the end) and beside everything, he totally fail being ERASED from the existance.