Raditz tail conundrum.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Tue Apr 06, 2004 10:48 pm

My question comes from volume 16 of the manga and the early Raditz episodes within DBZ. It seems to me that when Piccolo was preparing the second Makankousappou, Goku could have easily grabbed his tail again after Gohan cracked his armour. It just never really made much sense as to why Goku had to sacrifice himself instead of simply grabbing his tail again. My only ideas on the subject would have to be that since later we see Nappa and Vegeta able to continue to function after their tails had been grabbed Raditz too could have completed this training.

Afterall Goku's tail was strengthened while training before the 22nd Budoukai. He is still just a kid, so it is plausible that Raditz could have been simply tricking his naive brother. On another note, I think it would have been interesting to see how the show would have developed if they had defeated Raditz without Goku's sacrifice. Then there would have been no opportunity for Piccolo to give away the secret of the Dragon Balls and so Vegeta and Nappa would have simply stayed put always bad mouthing Raditz of course. I always found it somewhat interesting to have seen another fight with Piccolo where Goku, Kuririn, Yamcha, and Tenshinhan would have faced off against him in the ULTIMATE Piccolo fight.

I mean who really doesn't love the progression of the two major Piccolo fights in the series. One more even better than the last two would have been a masterful way to complete the series. That way the introduction of Piccolo as an alien would have never occured, and the awsome almost religous story of Piccolo as the Demon King "ala the devil" and Kami "ala God". I understand however the need for more Dragon Balls after Nappa's slaughter, but like said earlier. Without Goku's death there would be no Vegeta.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 12:08 am

It might be possible that Raditz never thought about training his tail. Goku didn't until Gohan reminded him during their fight at Baba's.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:19 am

I think I'm having déjà-vu here. Didn't we talk about this once in another post?

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:23 am

Raditz's tail, or having Piccolo remain evil?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 1:26 am

Raditz's tail. I'm certain someone brought up the question of why did he not just cut it off when he saw that Goku wasn't going to be tricked into letting go the second time.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:59 am

Beelz wrote:My question comes from volume 16 of the manga and the early Raditz episodes within DBZ. It seems to me that when Piccolo was preparing the second Makankousappou, Goku could have easily grabbed his tail again after Gohan cracked his armour. It just never really made much sense as to why Goku had to sacrifice himself instead of simply grabbing his tail again. My only ideas on the subject would have to be that since later we see Nappa and Vegeta able to continue to function after their tails had been grabbed Raditz too could have completed this training.

Ow...that was a hell of a lot to read. I believe someone already talked about this before, but I'll summarize. It would appear that the Saiyans have the ability to simply make their tails drop off much like some lizards can. The second time Goku grabs Raditz under the arms, Piccolo even asks him why he didn't just grab his tail again, to which Goku replies that Raditz could "Cut it off."

Although Goku is never shown losing his tail this way, he does mention that he had his tail removed permanently while training under Kami, he probably removed it that way as well.

B-kun · Post by **B-kun** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 2:11 pm

Deus ex Machina wrote:
Beelz wrote:
Although Goku is never shown losing his tail this way, he does mention that he had his tail removed permanently while training under Kami, he probably removed it that way as well.

Actually, Kami cut it off permanently, because he feared the Oozaru returning again. I THINK the flashback's in the manga..

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Wed Apr 07, 2004 5:05 pm

In the manga the flashback occurs in the form of a single panel in which Kami asks Goku if he can ''remove'' the tail permanently.

Beelz · Post by **Beelz** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 1:45 am

I was aware of Goku's line "...because he can just cut it off", but it just seemed a little unresolved. I mean if Raditz could cut it off wouldn't he have simply done it without begging for mercy in the first place? What happened to Saiyan pride. Also about that argument that Goku performs this tail extraction while fighting Son-Gohan in Baba's ring. This was simply an example of too much pressure forcing the tail to simply slip off. It's not like it matters anyway after the Saiyan saga everyones tails simply disappear.

The real question should be in regards to Trunks tail. Yes I realize that Bulma more than likely pulled it off at birth but still eventually the tail would have grown back while Vegeta was living with her and Trunks. You would think that Vegeta would have proudly forced Trunks to showcase his tail. It is more than evident that Vegeta as well as the rest of the saiyans minus Goku and Gohan found extreme pride and usefullness in their tails during the saiyan saga. With Vegeta losing his tail to Yajirobe you would think he'd have made it a matter to teach Trunks the same pride in the matter of tails. Although I could be wrong.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 6:44 am

As far as anyone knows, Trunks wasn't born with a tail, and neither was Goten... It could be they were cut off for the fear of them transforming into Oozaru, but like you said, they'd have to grow back again.

That never really is explained, is it?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:56 am

I've always felt that you either had the tail so you could go Oozaru or you had the power to become a Super Saiya-jin. Not both. Since Goten and Trunks were born with the power to become Super Saiya-jin they were born without tails.

TGDweezl · Post by **TGDweezl** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:26 am

I have a theory on that note. I think Goten and Trunks' tails were removed. Goku and Vegeta were both able to go SSJ before thier births, right? My theory is that all Saiya-jins had a sleeping "SSJ-gene". Since Goku and Vegeta became SSJ, the gene "woke-up" and was passed to Goten and Trunks, thus why they didn't have to go through all the rigorous training that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan had to endure to attain SSJ. Like I said, purely a theory of mine I'm sure someone knows better than me and can disprove it but hey. I've only been watching Dragonball/Z/GT for like 8 years and still haven't seen all of it. Most of my theories are pretty far-fetched but some people to believe it.

P.S. Is there a thread about the Legendary SSJ hooplah? I'd like to get in on that one

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:28 am

TGDweezl wrote:I have a theory on that note. I think Goten and Trunks' tails were removed. Goku and Vegeta were both able to go SSJ before thier births, right? My theory is that all Saiya-jins had a sleeping "SSJ-gene". Since Goku and Vegeta became SSJ, the gene "woke-up" and was passed to Goten and Trunks, thus why they didn't have to go through all the rigorous training that Goku, Vegeta and Gohan had to endure to attain SSJ. Like I said, purely a theory of mine I'm sure someone knows better than me and can disprove it but hey. I've only been watching Dragonball/Z/GT for like 8 years and still haven't seen all of it. Most of my theories are pretty far-fetched but some people to believe it.

IIRC, Trunks was conceived before Vegeta became a Super Saiya-jin.

Dai · Post by **Dai** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:50 am

Xyex wrote:I've always felt that you either had the tail so you could go Oozaru or you had the power to become a Super Saiya-jin. Not both. Since Goten and Trunks were born with the power to become Super Saiya-jin they were born without tails.

So only Saiyans without tails would be capable of becoming Super Saiyan?

You know, that actually explains quite a few things... It doesn't explain why Goten and Trunks didn't have tails, though. They'd still have to born with them. Unless it matters that their fathers didn't have tails at the moment.

AGH.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:03 am

Radditz would have been able to (painfully) just "pop" off his tail. Goku found he had this capability the hard way when he fought the ghost of his grandpa. But as you know the tail is needed to transform and is a symbol of Saiyan pride, so I personally felt Radditz was just begging Goku (when he had Radditz by the tail) as a method of keeping his tail, and that if Goku didn't let go Radditz would have popped if off and rolled out of the way of Piccolo's makankosappo. The second time, Goku knew he'd do this so he grabbed him by the waist.

Concerning Trunks' tail, Krillin asked Bulma if she cut off and she said yes. The reason isn't stated. Goten we can only assume had his cut off.

James R. Cadwell · Post by **James R. Cadwell** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:19 am

Dayspring wrote: Concerning Trunks' tail, Krillin asked Bulma if she cut off and she said yes. The reason isn't stated. Goten we can only assume had his cut off.

I'd assume that the reason is related to the fact that Bulma wouldn't have wanted a giant monkey stomping around Capsule Corp. if Trunks happened to catch a glimpse of the full moon.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 11:24 am

Dai wrote:
Xyex wrote:I've always felt that you either had the tail so you could go Oozaru or you had the power to become a Super Saiya-jin. Not both. Since Goten and Trunks were born with the power to become Super Saiya-jin they were born without tails.
So only Saiyans without tails would be capable of becoming Super Saiyan?

You know, that actually explains quite a few things... It doesn't explain why Goten and Trunks didn't have tails, though. They'd still have to born with them. Unless it matters that their fathers didn't have tails at the moment.

AGH.

That's always been my belief. It would explain why so many Super Saiya-jin's came into being in such a short period of time. A friend of mine actually came up with a few 'scientific' theories about why, from a gland in the tail that prevents the transformation, to the SSJ state being the Saiya-jin response to intesne stress survival instinct after they've lost their tail.

Though, most likely, Toriyama-sama just didn't want to deal with the uber power of a Golden Oozaru. Think about it, Goku was at 15,000,000 when he fought Frieza. That would mean, as a Golden Oozaru, he'd have had a power of 150,000,000. That would have made an awfully one-sided fight, no?

Post by **TripleRach** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:05 pm

Dayspring wrote:Concerning Trunks' tail, Krillin asked Bulma if she cut off and she said yes. The reason isn't stated. Goten we can only assume had his cut off.

Huh? Looking in my manga now, she doesn't even respond to the question at all. There's just Gohan making silly faces, and Yamucha saying he was shocked, and then Piccolo starts feeling Yajirobe heading their way.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 5:58 pm

This all reminds me of that time Toriyama actually got the question once from a child asking why Trunks and Goten didn't have tails. He answered that "it would seem tails are a recessive trait". You have to give him points for thinking an answer up that quickly.

tlsmith1963 · Post by **tlsmith1963** » Mon Apr 12, 2004 7:41 pm

#16 of the DBZ manga is out? I just bought #15, thinking it was the newest one. Cool--now I'll have another one to read!

Tammy

Kanzenshuu

Raditz tail conundrum.

Raditz tail conundrum.

Re: Raditz tail conundrum.

Re: Raditz tail conundrum.