SSRage & Two-Base Theory

[ChiefWamsutta]

I've been thinking ... if we as a community are considering the word of DBHeroes to be canon (Super Saiyan Rage), then we need to at least give the idea Saiyan Beyond God a chance too.

If we are going to consider the naming of Super Saiyan Rage an extension to the canon, we should give the Saiyan Beyond God an extension to the canon. Obviously this form does not have God Ki in it, rather it has Mortal Ki, but this is a fair and impartial idea to look into.


Also, on a side note, SS2 Mutation might not be a thing at all since even DBHeroes does not have a card for it. It probably WAS in fact just a rage boost.

[Nejishiki]

Are we? That's a rhetorical question. "Saiyan Beyond God" doesn't stick around outside of battle power discussions and I think its video game context is different to begin with. I don't see a particular reason why the terminology for Future Trunks' new transformation wouldn't be treated the same. Or rather, I do, but I had the understanding that it's a placeholder for community convenience rather than it supporting the Dragon Ball Super anime continuity. We aren't exactly attributing special attack names from the same arcade game with normalcy. The special circumstance here is only for the classification instead of canon certification, I feel.

Okay, so that's out of the way. In the original film, Goku drops Super Saiyan God, bodily recalls how to use its power via "absorption", and calls upon it again full-force before sapping himself of all his fighting ki. That's all well and fine there. The Dragon Ball Super anime and manga continuities haven't referenced this exact idea strongly. From this, the mechanics of how Super Saiyan God operates is foreign from its original depiction. I don't believe you can seamlessly mix the sources like that. There's an alternate understanding at play now. Even if we consider "Saiyan Beyond God" to be valid, it wasn't coined in consideration of Dragon Ball Super. That's a reasonable analysis, yes?

And yes, Vegeta's emotional outburst at Beerus was special in a narrative sense. It wasn't intended to be a new transformation and that's supported by Vegeta failing to retain the power found through his anger for Bluma. It's a fair assumption that he could have trained to claim that power back. However, the story doesn't make any special references towards the idea. It's simply a moment for Vegeta to shine in the plot.

[Ki Breaker]

SSikari dosen't make a shred of sense, even if they try to sell this I am not buying it

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Except "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't a separate form or a transformation. It's just a state of being. It just represents the base state of any Saiyan that has absorbed the power of god. That's Goku and Vegeta's only base form.
Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and he got overall stronger from having absorbed the form, but the only form he has it's god ki in is in SSJG and SSB.

[Bullza]

Yeah I dont know what this has to do with the two base theory. Goku became a Saiyan Beyond God in the anime as well after fighting Beerus.

It's not something he transforms into. It's just what his base is now.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I think its ridiculous to be called Saiyan Beyond God when his transformations up the ladder are literally his God forms it should be called Saiyan Before God if anything.

[Saturnine]

Except "Saiyan Beyond God" isn't a separate form or a transformation. It's just a state of being. It just represents the base state of any Saiyan that has absorbed the power of god. That's Goku and Vegeta's only base form.

This can't be, because Goku and Vegeta are shown to transform into regular, golden-haired Super Saiyan, and when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into Super Saiyan, the result is Super Saiyan Blue.

Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God and he got overall stronger from having absorbed the form, but the only form he has it's god ki in is in SSJG and SSB.

He can only use SSj God again in the manga, and it's a clear indication that the power of his base form is not in the God realm. What would be the point of going SSj God when your base already has all the power of it? That was Toyotaro's attempt at salvaging this mess and making it clear when Goku is and when he isn't tapping into God ki. Not to mention Toyotaro likes transformations a lot, so he would never have Goku fight uber strong opponents in just his base state, even though according to Toriyama's initial vision, that was the very plan.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

This can't be, because Goku and Vegeta are shown to transform into regular, golden-haired Super Saiyan, and when a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God transforms into Super Saiyan, the result is Super Saiyan Blue.

So what? This doesn't disagree with anything that I said.

He can only use SSj God again in the manga, and it's a clear indication that the power of his base form is not in the God realm. What would be the point of going SSj God when your base already has all the power of it? That was Toyotaro's attempt at salvaging this mess and making it clear when Goku is and when he isn't tapping into God ki. Not to mention Toyotaro likes transformations a lot, so he would never have Goku fight uber strong opponents in just his base state, even though according to Toriyama's initial vision, that was the very plan.

The "power of god" is SSJG. He uses SSJG everytime he uses SSB. SSB=SSJG+SSJ. There is no difference between the manga's powerscaling and the anime's.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Goku's base form has all of his god power, when it doesn't have any god ki. You're not Toyotaro, so I'm not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that he showed Goku transforming into SSJG to "fix the mess".

[Saturnine]

So what? This doesn't disagree with anything that I said.

It does, because a golden-haired Super Saiyan wouldn't be possible with god ki. The only exception was Goku during his first fight with Beerus, but he was without any training at that point and straight after losing SSj God.

The "power of god" is SSJG. He uses SSJG everytime he uses SSB. SSB=SSJG+SSJ. There is no difference between the manga's powerscaling and the anime's.

Oh, but there is. If only for things like 10x Kaioken. Hit alone lies in a very different realm of power in the manga and in the anime, and he's just one example.

I don't know where you're getting the idea that Goku's base form has all of his god power, when it doesn't have any god ki. You're not Toyotaro, so I'm not sure how you're coming to the conclusion that he showed Goku transforming into SSJG to "fix the mess".

In DB Super, Goku is said to be stronger than ever while he's preparing to fight against Freeza (Saiyan beyond God state), which indicates that he indeed does possess all of his former SSj God power at that point. In the Commeson arc, a base Copy Vegeta completely owns SSj3 Gotenks. SSj2 Goku is equal to SSj2 Trunks. Cabba who's never even heard of Super Saiyan can hold his own against Vegeta. These things can only make sense if we assume two realms of power, a mortal one and a godly one. Not to mention that the very continued existence of regular Super Saiyan (let alone SSj2 and 3) directly contradicts what Goku says about the essence of Super Saiyan Blue, and throws the multipliers completely out of whack. It couldn't be any clearer that by bringing back regular SSj God Toriyama intended to show that Goku and Vegeta's base states are not supposed to be at the level of SSj God.

In the manga SSj God Goku is directly shown to be stronger than SSj3 Goku. Claiming that it puts a SSj God multiplier over a SbG base is ridiculous. Hence, Toyotaro's solution is a clean and elegant way to do away with the "two base theory" by replacing the SbG base with proper SSj God.

In the manga: Base < SSj < SSj2 < SSj3 < SSj God < SSj Blue
In the anime there are two bases:
Base < SSj < SSj2 < SSj3 < SSj God
SbG (around the strength of SSj God) < SSj Blue

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It does, because a golden-haired Super Saiyan wouldn't be possible with god ki. The only exception was Goku during his first fight with Beerus, but he was without any training at that point and straight after losing SSj God.

Goku wasn't using any god ki, hence why he could be sensed, hence why he didn't go SSJG. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Oh, but there is. If only for things like 10x Kaioken. Hit alone lies in a very different realm of power in the manga and in the anime, and he's just one example.

Hit is exactly the same in the manga and anime. SSB Kaioken isn't a powerscaling difference. It's just anime Goku using something that manga Goku didn't.

In DB Super, Goku is said to be stronger than ever while he's preparing to fight against Freeza (Saiyan beyond God state), which indicates that he indeed does possess all of his former SSj God power at that point. In the Commeson arc, a base Copy Vegeta completely owns SSj3 Gotenks. SSj2 Goku is equal to SSj2 Trunks. Cabba who's never even heard of Super Saiyan can hold his own against Vegeta. These things can only make sense if we assume two realms of power, a mortal one and a godly one. Not to mention that the very continued existence of regular Super Saiyan (let alone SSj2 and 3) directly contradicts what Goku says about the essence of Super Saiyan Blue, and throws the multipliers completely out of whack. It couldn't be any clearer that by bringing back regular SSj God Toriyama intended to show that Goku and Vegeta's base states are not supposed to be at the level of SSj God.

In the manga SSj God Goku is directly shown to be stronger than SSj3 Goku. Claiming that it puts a SSj God multiplier over a SbG base is ridiculous. Hence, Toyotaro's solution is a clean and elegant way to do away with the "two base theory" by replacing the SbG base with proper SSj God.

In the manga: Base < SSj < SSj2 < SSj3 < SSj God < SSj Blue
In the anime there are two bases:
Base < SSj < SSj2 < SSj3 < SSj God
SbG (around the strength of SSj God) < SSj Blue

Everyone can sense Goku's base form, so it isn't god ki. End of story. Nothing you're saying here is slightly relevant.
Absorbing god into himself made him stronger. He does not have it's god ki in any form bar SSJG and Blue. It's that simple. The power of god is SSJG, so he combines that with SSJ to go SSB.

[Saturnine]

Goku wasn't using any god ki, hence why he could be sensed, hence why he didn't go SSJG. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

You're the one who seems not to understand something here. Goku has displayed inconsistent powerlevels after absorbing the power of SSj God, he has also used regular, gold haired SSj forms while it should have become impossible. Also, Goku is supposed no to have become just a little bit or an arbitrary amount stronger after absorbing the power of SSjG. He was said to be just as strong or even stronger. He shouldn't have the need to actually transform to SSj God, because he had all of this power in base. And at other times, he clearly didn't. This is the problem here.

Hit is exactly the same in the manga and anime. SSB Kaioken isn't a powerscaling difference. It's just anime Goku using something that manga Goku didn't.

Used something that only you know... multiplies one's powerlevel 10 times? In the manga Hit was already inferior to regular SSjG Goku and was getting his ass kicked by a regular SSj Blue Goku, while in the anime SSj Blue Goku was of no challenge to Hit.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You're the one who seems not to understand something here. Goku has displayed inconsistent powerlevels after absorbing the power of SSj God, he has also used regular, gold haired SSj forms while it should have become impossible. Also, Goku is supposed no to have become just a little bit or an arbitrary amount stronger after absorbing the power of SSjG. He was said to be just as strong or even stronger. He shouldn't have the need to actually transform to SSj God, because he had all of this power in base. And at other times, he clearly didn't. This is the problem here.

The fact that you're saying that it's impossible when that's exactly what happened shows that you don't know what you're talking about. He doesn't have all of god's power in base since he has no god ki in that state. Everyone can sense him. He only has it in SSJG and SSB. End of story.

Hit is exactly the same in the manga and anime. SSB Kaioken isn't a powerscaling difference. It's just anime Goku using something that manga Goku didn't.

Used something that only you know... multiplies one's powerlevel 10 times? In the manga Hit was already inferior to regular SSjG Goku and was getting his ass kicked by a regular SSj Blue Goku, while in the anime SSj Blue Goku was of no challenge to Hit.[/quote]
SSB Goku was only disadvantaged against Hit because he improved his Time skip, not because he was stronger. Hit isn't anywhere near SSB in power.

[Marlowe89]

I've already made enough posts concerning why I support the two base theory and at this point I don't really feel the need to push the issue anymore, but I'd like to mention that (unless I'm mistaken) DB Heroes did treat "Saiyan Beyond God" as a transformed state that provided a power boost between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God in-game. That's not to say that Heroes has any kind of real effect on Super's canonicity, but it's also worth noting that DBH is the origin for the term in general - for those who deny the two base interpretation, it might be more conducive to just discard the whole "Saiyan Beyond God" name in its entirety.