What Kaioken multiplier would the characters be able to use if the technique continued to be used?

[Doctor.]

Let's say the Saiyans never got Super Saiyan and managed to defeat Freeza, or the humans and Piccolo got Kaioken instead, what's the maximum multiplier they'd be able to achieve by the end of the story before the Kaioken completely destroys their body beyond repair?

[TheUltimateNinja]

We can't say for sure since the relationship between power level and maximum Kaioken level is pretty inconsistent, but Piccolo would be able to take it the farthest.

[Anime Kitten]

Generously, they could possibly pull off x20, but even then, it nearly disabled Saiyan arc Goku, who I'd imagine would have more durability, as a Saiyan, than Piccolo and the Earthlings. Piccolo may manage even a x25 easier than the Earthlings, though. I'd give the latter a (hypothetical) x20 to x22~3 before their body breaks down permanently.

Maybe I'm interpreting this incorrectly, but I definitely see the Earthlings having some trouble with Kaiō-ken. I mean, it was (and still is) interpreted as an extremely dangerous technique.

[dragon boss z]

OVER 9000!

[TheMikado]

I think characters like Tien and Krillin could easily do 100x. As long as their bases continued to increase and they continued to keep pace with the saiyans they would do well.
Further we have no idea if there is a FSSJ kaioken version, where they maintain the state for extended periods in order to master it.

This honestly would have been the most effective way to keep them relevant as it could always just scale up with the SSJ multipliers. Further, since its not a static number even if they maxxed at KK x100 they could in theory push to KK x120 at the risk of damaging their own bodies. It would have added a great dynamic to the entire story and made it less about the saiyans as the only ones able to contribute anything meaningful. Plus we know KK can be used with God ki sooo....

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think characters like Tien and Krillin could easily do 100x. As long as their bases continued to increase and they continued to keep pace with the saiyans they would do well.
Further we have no idea if there is a FSSJ kaioken version, where they maintain the state for extended periods in order to master it.

This honestly would have been the most effective way to keep them relevant as it could always just scale up with the SSJ multipliers. Further, since its not a static number even if they maxxed at KK x100 they could in theory push to KK x120 at the risk of damaging their own bodies. It would have added a great dynamic to the entire story and made it less about the saiyans as the only ones able to contribute anything meaningful. Plus we know KK can be used with God ki sooo....

I'm gonna have to vehemently disagree with you here. Kaioken should not be treated as a power-up that the humans can use "to keep pace with the saiyans." Kaioken is a body-breaking technique and is only used in extreme circumstances.

Goku uses it against Vegeta, Nappa, Ginyu, and Frieza. This is all before he had access to Super Saiyan forms because he couldn't power-up. He hated having to use it though, and never again once used Kaioken in the canon until he had mastered ki control to such a level that he accessed God Ki on his own in the SSB form. Even then Kaioken had a 10% chance of working, and even after that it lasted for only a few minutes.

I think characters like Tien and Krillin could easily do 100x.

I wanted to specifically single out this part of your post, and say, I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way this feasible. The humans could maybe do a Kaioken x10 at the maximum, but I could realistically see them doing a Kaioken x5, as their durability is not that of a Saiyan. The technique, by nature, is incredibly flawed and Beerus' ignorance shines when Goku uses SSBKK because he does not comprehend why Goku wouldn't use it.

[ekrolo2]

Piccolo's regen should make it much easier for him to get the technique up to a level much farther than even Goku. I could see him pushing it to SS1 levels as a last resort with 20-30 being the last "optimal" level he could power up to without damaging himself too much.

[TheMikado]

I think characters like Tien and Krillin could easily do 100x. As long as their bases continued to increase and they continued to keep pace with the saiyans they would do well.
Further we have no idea if there is a FSSJ kaioken version, where they maintain the state for extended periods in order to master it.

This honestly would have been the most effective way to keep them relevant as it could always just scale up with the SSJ multipliers. Further, since its not a static number even if they maxxed at KK x100 they could in theory push to KK x120 at the risk of damaging their own bodies. It would have added a great dynamic to the entire story and made it less about the saiyans as the only ones able to contribute anything meaningful. Plus we know KK can be used with God ki sooo....

I'm gonna have to vehemently disagree with you here. Kaioken should not be treated as a power-up that the humans can use "to keep pace with the saiyans." Kaioken is a body-breaking technique and is only used in extreme circumstances.

Goku uses it against Vegeta, Nappa, Ginyu, and Frieza. This is all before he had access to Super Saiyan forms because he couldn't power-up. He hated having to use it though, and never again once used Kaioken in the canon until he had mastered ki control to such a level that he accessed God Ki on his own in the SSB form. Even then Kaioken had a 10% chance of working, and even after that it lasted for only a few minutes.

I think characters like Tien and Krillin could easily do 100x.

I wanted to specifically single out this part of your post, and say, I'm sorry but there is absolutely no way this feasible. The humans could maybe do a Kaioken x10 at the maximum, but I could realistically see them doing a Kaioken x5, as their durability is not that of a Saiyan. The technique, by nature, is incredibly flawed and Beerus' ignorance shines when Goku uses SSBKK because he does not comprehend why Goku wouldn't use it.

First off, we are discussing a hypothetical situation on a fictional work where fictional characters learned Learned a fictional technique. Further we know that in universe as the characters power level increased their ability to handle higher kaioken multipliers increases as well. There's no shown or implied link to "durability". It's be shown that humans possess tremendous potential while not being naturally powerful, that hybrid theory and all that.. King Kai even states they completed the training much faster than Goku. It's not a stretch to think that they may have better mastery of the technique, in addition with prolonged use and mastery be able to push it much further than Goku. Goku used it for a couple of months less than a year and pushed it to x20. There's no reason 10 years of mastery by someone who completed king kais training faster than Goku couldn't yield better results. Further we've seen in plenty of officially licensed products where they characters are given kaioken up to x20. And to your x100 statement Goku actually does use the kaioken x100 in the lord slug movie. So whether you care if it's canon or not when discussing this purely hypothetical scenario anyway we that: it's possible for them to use kaioken and that kaioken x 100 is possible in the Dragonball universe. When discussing a purely theoretical scenario on a purely fictional work I think it's fair game to say anything is possible.

[dragonball0900]

And to your x100 statement Goku actually does use the kaioken x100 in the lord slug movie. So whether you care if it's canon or not when discussing this purely hypothetical scenario anyway we that: it's possible for them to use kaioken and that kaioken x 100 is possible in the Dragonball universe.

I don't really know what to think of that. It just seems impossible for Goku to make a Kaioken X100 if he was only able to hardly do a Kaioken X20. I know a guide said he did it, but I found it really unbelievable for him to do it.

[TheMikado]

And to your x100 statement Goku actually does use the kaioken x100 in the lord slug movie. So whether you care if it's canon or not when discussing this purely hypothetical scenario anyway we that: it's possible for them to use kaioken and that kaioken x 100 is possible in the Dragonball universe.

I don't really know what to think of that. It just seems impossible for Goku to make a Kaioken X100 if he was only able to hardly do a Kaioken X20. I know a guide said he did it, but I found it really unbelievable for him to do it.

I find it ridiculous he was able to do it at that point without years of mastery. If he could manifest a KKx20 after a few months since learning the technique I don't see why he couldn't learn kkx100 by the Buu saga through mastery.

[dragonball0900]

I find it ridiculous he was able to do it at that point without years of mastery. If he could manifest a KKx20 after a few months since learning the technique I don't see why he couldn't learn kkx100 by the Buu saga through mastery.

Oh well. By the Buu saga, sure. It would make sense if he was able to do it at that point of the series, though that's just speculation. I mean in the Slug movie, I don't think Goku was doing that KK x100 at the time.

[ChiefWamsutta]

First off, we are discussing a hypothetical situation on a fictional work where fictional characters learned Learned a fictional technique.

We all know this is fictional, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Dragon Ball world has limits and parameters. Someone can come up with a grandiose proposition, but if it has no basis within the parameters of the given anime it makes no sense.

Further we know that in universe as the characters power level increased their ability to handle higher kaioken multipliers increases as well.

Yes, that is true. Goku was CRIPPLED by a Kaioken x4 and needed to train at 100 times Earth's gravity in order to handle a Kaioken x20. Neither Krillin nor Tien has never been seen training in that gravity chamber. During the filler Garlic Jr. saga, Yamcha snuck into the gravity room to train at 300 times Earth's gravity to prove he was as competent as Vegeta. He then finds himself, completely crushed and overwhelmed to the point of dying. The best he does is move his hand to shift the gravity back to normal. Yamcha is a competent fighter and one of Earth's best, yet he was unable to reach that level.

There's no reason 10 years of mastery by someone who completed king kais training faster than Goku couldn't yield better results.

Goku is one of THE MOST TALENTED fighters in the history of Universe 7. The reason he keeps getting stronger is because of his monstrous ability to break his own limits. If you remove all possible Super Saiyan forms, his Base is currently insanely high (whether you believe in the 1-Base-Theory or 2-Base-Theory doesn't change this). His Base is at Super Saiyan God level.

The whole reason the humans were benched is because they don't have as far to grow anymore. Generally speaking if in 100G, Goku's body could handle a Kaioken x20, a human's body is gonna need 500G to handle a Kaioken x100. Yamcha nearly died in 300G. I highly doubt that anyone of them could handle 500G long enough to allow a Kaioken x100.

Further we've seen in plenty of officially licensed products where they characters are given kaioken up to x20.

Sure, but that is to sell toys and merchandise. That's a different department and they just come up with ideas to make figures like Super Saiyan Blue 3 Goku and Super Saiyan 4 Broly. We are talking about an in-universe scenario.

And to your x100 statement Goku actually does use the kaioken x100 in the lord slug movie. So whether you care if it's canon or not when discussing this purely hypothetical scenario anyway we that: it's possible for them to use kaioken and that kaioken x 100 is possible in the Dragonball universe. When discussing a purely theoretical scenario on a purely fictional work I think it's fair game to say anything is possible.

Where specifically does it say that this happened? I have never heard of this occurring.


You continually keep saying that this is a hypothetical scenario and anything can happen because this is fiction. That is frankly wrong. This is Dragon Ball, and we have to follow the in-universe guidelines and parameters of the story. That is like saying Krillin can go Super Saiyan, Goku will battle Superman next arc, and Broly is gonna become the Red Power Ranger, just because it is a hypothetical fictional circumstance. Don't get me wrong, that stuff COULD happen because, you're right, it IS fiction. But nothing we have seen has shown anything like that happening, so we have to use the knowledge, guidelines, and parameters we have seen.

[TheMikado]

I'm not going to quote the whole thing but just your point about Yamcha is enough to disprove this.

Yamcha did WAY better in 300G than Goku did in 100G. That alone tells you how strong and durable his body is.
Not to mention his more successful training with King Kai, and I won't even go in to him handling the Ginyu force if you want to talk filler. The point is any of the Z warriors far outclasses Goku when he was at that point. Further my point is mastery and getting stronger, of Yamcha was able to handle 300G like that, it's. It outside the realms of possibility that he could likely train in 100G and do a KKx20. If he perfected and mastered the technique while becoming only 5x stronger it would be reasonable for him to perform a KKx100 after a few years. Yes everything does have rules in this fictional universe, but ignoring the evidence of strength of the characters that's presented doesn't make the argument more convincing.

Yamcha clip for reference:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zesceyrNPds

[Nejishiki]

Piccolo's regen should make it much easier for him to get the technique up to a level much farther than even Goku. I could see him pushing it to SS1 levels as a last resort with 20-30 being the last "optimal" level he could power up to without damaging himself too much.

Piccolo's regeneration is already costly against his ki reserves. I'm not quite sure how it'll benefit Kaio-ken. For that matter, the "damage" Kaio-ken inflicts on the user is a form of extreme ki cost itself. Let's not neglect that using the amplification technique at all requires perfect focus and ki control in the heat of battle. Additionally, the user is considerably draining themselves if they wish to get the most out of it (such as combining it with specialized ki techniques). Essentially, he's planning to recover the stressed ki he lost by exhausting more ki to superficially recover his outward appearance. It's detrimental attrition unless it's used as a finishing strike.

Where specifically does it say that this happened? I have never heard of this occurring.

[spoiler][/spoiler]
"Roar!! Kaio-ken x100!!! Smash evil!!" as translated by Herms. It's supposedly from "Shonen Jump 1991, Issue #12". I personally can't confirm that.

[Ki Breaker]

There is no good measurement on how much further it can be taken, but as we see humans still are not able to match freeza namek, it's safe to say kaioken will let them do that
In a prolonged fight, piccolo will be the Best in using it.. if he gets to rest even a little, he can regenerate, it's natural for his race, hence I believe it's not as taxing as people tend to think it is, especially for a person like piccolo..
If goku can manage to use kaioken so much even before beating freeza without any good resting or regeneration involved, having at least some form of it would be beneficial in a prolonged fight..

The highest cam be taken by buu..
He has endless pool of ki and a regeneration from even the worst of worst things..

[TheMikado]

Buu with the kaioken ability would be a nightmare..
Now that I'm thinking about it I'm surprised Cell didn't use some form of it although it's generally thought he has a SSJ like form.

[Khin]

I believe the body of the earthlings won't be able to handle Kaio-ken as much as Goku did. The latter achieved Kaio-ken with a battle power of at most 8,000, counting the fact that he is a Saiyan, who naturally have body tougher than earthlings. The earthlings probably would need a battle power higher power than that to achieve the technique (Along with other requirements such as being highly skilled of course.)

Part of the reason why the earthlings presumably never learned the technique during their training with Kaio is probably even though they were stronger than Goku, their body aren't tough enough to handle the technique.

With a battle of power of 3 million, Goku can handle the Kaio-ken 10x pretty good, and can use up to 20x for a very short time. If we say current Kuririn is as strong as strong as that Goku, then he probably can only handle around 5x, with around 10x boost having the same effect as a 20x boost for Goku.

Piccolo is another story though, with the level he's in currently, I reckon he can at least handle a 100x boost.

In short, the earthlings would still be worthless even if they have Kaio-ken. But Piccolo would be a total powerhouse, especially during the course of the Artificial Human/Cell Arcs.

Generously, they could possibly pull off x20, but even then, it nearly disabled Saiyan arc Goku.

You mean Kaio-ken x3/4?

[Zeru14]

In theory there is no set limit to how high the Kaioken can go, it all depends how long the user has continued to practice their ki control with it and strengthening their bodies to handle the up surge of power(constant gravity training is probably the best way for the latter). When Goku first learned in the Saiyan Saga, he could handle x2 no problem, it was only x3 and x4 where his body got wrecked, as he hadn't trained his body to handle those levels yet, but after 20 thru 100 gravity training on his way to Namek, his body was strong enough to handle x10 with no ill effects and his better ki control allowed him to keep the charge for a prolonged period as demonstrated when he powered up for Captain Ginyu. So basically the Kaioken is like any other technique/power up/transformation the more you practice with it the more the higher you can take it and the easier it becomes and I'm sure other characters and races could learn it(they do in videogames), it just that Toriyama didn't want that. Krillin, Yamcha, Tien Shinhan, Chiaotzu and Piccolo could've all learn it, use the advance the training methods available to them like the Time Chamber and Bulma's Gravity Room(start low and work up like Goku did on his way Namek), keep training on a regular basis to keep their bodies in prime shape(Piccolo, Tien and Chiaotzu do this, Krillin and Yamcha dont) and mastering the use of Kaioken at higher levels for prolonged periods. Super Namek Piccolo, with the way he trains, battle experience, expert Ki control and Namek biology, could probably handle high levels such as x20, x50, x100. If Piccolo were learn it now in Super, go train in the Time Chamber(he has King Piccolo's eternal youth, he could stay in their longer than anyone), when he came out he would be a total beast in time for the Universal Tournament.

[Anime Kitten]

You mean Kaio-ken x3/4?

You're right, I forgot that Gokū never used x20 until the Namek arc. That'd give the Earthlings even less of a chance at going past x10.

[Nejishiki]

In a prolonged fight, piccolo will be the Best in using it.. if he gets to rest even a little, he can regenerate, it's natural for his race, hence I believe it's not as taxing as people tend to think it is, especially for a person like piccolo..
If goku can manage to use kaioken so much even before beating freeza without any good resting or regeneration involved, having at least some form of it would be beneficial in a prolonged fight..

I'm starting to think many have the impression that Piccolo possesses video game-style regeneration, in which he recovers health with each use of his power. Piccolo and Nail both claim their recoveries leave them weaker than they were before. It's not an issue of bodily taxation, but of efficiently timed use. Using Goku as comparison that way isn't representative of established events. Contextually speaking, Kaio-ken always affects his stamina. His tolerance towards the lower multiplications were heightened, but it's never not doing anything to him, I think. Against Freeza, Kaio-ken's usage before x20 was applied comfortably and masterfully yet he still needs to maintain precise control; He still needs to mind his health, even if it doesn't hurt him as much. It's not free is what I'm saying and what the story supports. Even flight was still considered bothersome for Goku in that point of the story.

I don't believe there's doubt of Piccolo potentially being able to handle the technique, should he master it. No, the oddity is the idea that his regeneration would reliably support Kaio-ken. With what we know of how ki management works, he wouldn't be replenishing his strength with each use of regeneration. I'd say there's question of if he can even do so beyond limb recovery (He probably can, I'm just mentioning it for the sake of argument). Overall, attempting to outlast an opponent with Kaio-ken, from what we know of its mechanics, seems suicidal. It bears repeating that I'm not against the notion of Piccolo mastering the technique. It's only extremely difficult to learn, not impossible. I'm only puzzled why his body, in particular, would circumvent Kaio-ken's risks and change how he applies regeneration in accordance to the original story.

he has King Piccolo's eternal youth

Piccolo is not eternally young. His father wished to recover his prime, fighting condition.