Why didn't Ultimate Gohan turn Super Saiyajin?

[floofychan333]

Now, I ask this assuming there's a real reason for it, like maybe going SSJ would cancel his potential unlock or something. But if there's no explanation, Gohan not going SSJ while fighting Buu is one of the stupidest decisions ever made and nobody would be able to rationalize it on the thread that deals with dumb decisions. Seriously, Gohan was overpowered in every way and was visibly no match for Buu. If he had gone SSJ (and was able to), why didn't he? Hell, since he's apparently got all this hidden potential he could have maybe defeated Buu as a SSJ2 and spared Goku and Vegeta all the trouble.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

He doesn't need to, his potential was totally unlocked. I assume he probably could have if he really wanted to, but Old Kaioshin made it pretty clear that it wasn't necessary for power anymore.

[sintzu]

That's because when he went Mystic he unlocked all his power. he couldn't go Ssj because there was nothing more to unlock.

[szopman]

I wish DBS and GT hadn't screwed the whole Mystic Gohan concept

Now I'm wondering: at the moment, Gohan can use normally his SSJ1 state. Do you think that if he recuperated his power via training (+rage, fighting etc.), at some point he would turn into Mystic form again? Let's say, first he regain his SSJ2 potential, and later he powers up to the point of his old power from Buu Saga, and just turns again into Mystic form instead of SSJ3. Or would he become mastered SSJ2 like Trunks (which was stronger than Mystic Gohan?) or even go further into SSJ Rage?

Probably we won't have to wait much long to find out

[Darkprince410]

The Ssj transformations, officially, aren't simply multipliers of the individual's strength. Instead, they unlock portions of the individual's potential in relation to the base form (Ssj unlocks the potential equal to 50x the base form, etc). So, with Gohan, when he had his potential unlocked by Rou Kaioushin, there was simply nothing left for the Ssj forms to unlock. As such, while nothing says that he couldn't still transform, it'd be offering him no boost of strength, and would instead prove to be a less effective form for him than fighting in his regular post-power-up state.

[ChiefWamsutta]

We originally thought that Ultimate Gohan was a permanent new Base form for him -- one where he would never need to use Super Saiyan forms anymore. After the Battle of Gods Saga, Goku achieved a new Base form that was powered-up like what Ultimate Gohan was supposed to be like.

After the introduction of DBSuper, it is almost seeming like when Gohan trains he can regain the Super Saiyan 2 and Ultimate forms. This to me implies Ultimate is a form he powers-up into.

[Roronoa-pt]

It would be pointless because he wouldn't obtain anymore power and it will cost him more energy to mantain the SSJ state.

[NitroEX]

Ultimate Gohan already had all his power unlocked after the ritual. Toei screwed this up with GT, the movies and Super by nerfing him and making him rely on Super Saiyan again. In the manga and original anime, he no longer required transformations anymore.

[TheMikado]

Ultimate Gohan already had all his power unlocked after the ritual. Toei screwed this up with GT, the movies and Super by nerfing him and making him rely on Super Saiyan again. In the manga and original anime, he no longer required transformations anymore.

Toriyama wrote RoF where Gohan goes SSJ. This is obviously what Toriyama wanted.

[TheMikado]

We originally thought that Ultimate Gohan was a permanent new Base form for him -- one where he would never need to use Super Saiyan forms anymore. After the Battle of Gods Saga, Goku achieved a new Base form that was powered-up like what Ultimate Gohan was supposed to be like.

After the introduction of DBSuper, it is almost seeming like when Gohan trains he can regain the Super Saiyan 2 and Ultimate forms. This to me implies Ultimate is a form he powers-up into.

It is, it was covered in the Buu arc. When Gohan attempts to go SSJ he ends up going into his Mystic State instead. If he has the ability to go mystic it replaces his SSJ form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQrK3UYlzr0

[TheUltimateNinja]

We originally thought that Ultimate Gohan was a permanent new Base form for him -- one where he would never need to use Super Saiyan forms anymore. After the Battle of Gods Saga, Goku achieved a new Base form that was powered-up like what Ultimate Gohan was supposed to be like.

After the introduction of DBSuper, it is almost seeming like when Gohan trains he can regain the Super Saiyan 2 and Ultimate forms. This to me implies Ultimate is a form he powers-up into.

It is, it was covered in the Buu arc. When Gohan attempts to go SSJ he ends up going into his Mystic State instead. If he has the ability to go mystic it replaces his SSJ form.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQrK3UYlzr0

Logically speaking Ultimate Gohan should be several times stronger than Buu, so unless the gap between the brothers is huge Gohan shouldn't have any trouble with Lavenda at all.

[Khin]

For starters, Elder Kaioshin brought all of Gohan’s potential way beyond its limits, so essentially, Gohan’s ultimate is his peak in power. Gohan didn’t use Super Saiyan in his battle against Gotenks-Boo not because he can’t or he’s dumb, but because it would be worthless and would just make him weaker. At first, I thought Gohan didn’t use Super Saiyan because it wouldn’t make him stronger and would just stay in the same level as he is (as his potential already got unlocked way past its limits), so turning Gohan would do nothing but cause him strain. But, with what happened in the movies and Super and reading back Elder Kaioshin’s statement about Gohan’s new power, I thought that maybe that’s not the case after all.

It seems to me that Gohan has some kind of 2 ‘base states’ — one is normal and the other is the potential unleashed one. Gohan can activate the latter similar to how he normally trigger Super Saiyan, with a little kiai throw in there. I think this would be much easier to understand if put in numbers.

Gohan (Boo arc): 10
-- Super Saiyan: 100
-- Potential unlocked state: 1,000

Gohan (movies and Super): 10
-- Super Saiyan: 100
-- Potential unlocked state: 1,000

Basically, his ultimate state in his highest power which he lost years after due to slacking off. Gohan can still use Super Saiyan, but his ultimate state is much stronger and doesn’t cause any strain on his body whatsoever, so he didn’t use it in his battle with Boo. We only started seeing Gohan use his Super Saiyan when it seems necessary (Super Saiyan God ritual), and when he lost the ability to use the state (Resurrection F and Universe Survival arc).

I also like the interpretation that Gohan’s Super Saiyan form was replaced by his ultimate state after Elder Kaioshin’s power-up, which is why the way of using his new post powered-up state is similar to triggering Super Saiyan. The problem with this theory though, is that Gohan used both Super Saiyan and his potential unleashed state in Battle of Gods.

Anyway, since Elder Kaioshin is watching Gohan fight against Lavenda in the next episode of Super, I hope we’ll get an explanation from him about how Gohan’s power works.

[TheUltimateNinja]

For starters, Elder Kaioshin brought all of Gohan’s potential way beyond its limits, so essentially, Gohan’s ultimate is his peak in power. Gohan didn’t use Super Saiyan in his battle against Gotenks-Boo not because he can’t or he’s dumb, but because it would be worthless and would just make him weaker. At first, I thought Gohan didn’t use Super Saiyan because it wouldn’t make him stronger and would just stay in the same level as he is (as his potential already got unlocked way past its limits), so turning Gohan would do nothing but cause him strain. But, with what happened in the movies and Super and reading back Elder Kaioshin’s statement about Gohan’s new power, I thought that maybe that’s not the case after all.

It seems to me that Gohan has some kind of 2 ‘base states’ — one is normal and the other is the potential unleashed one. Gohan can activate the latter similar to how he normally trigger Super Saiyan, with a little kiai throw in there. I think this would be much easier to understand if put in numbers.

Gohan (Boo arc): 10
-- Super Saiyan: 100
-- Potential unlocked state: 1,000

Gohan (movies and Super): 10
-- Super Saiyan: 100
-- Potential unlocked state: 1,000

Basically, his ultimate state in his highest power which he lost years after due to slacking off. Gohan can still use Super Saiyan, but his ultimate state is much stronger and doesn’t cause any strain on his body whatsoever, so he didn’t use it in his battle with Boo. We only started seeing Gohan use his Super Saiyan when it seems necessary (Super Saiyan God ritual), and when he lost the ability to use the state (Resurrection F and Universe Survival arc).

I also like the interpretation that Gohan’s Super Saiyan form was replaced by his ultimate state after Elder Kaioshin’s power-up, which is why the way of using his new post powered-up state is similar to triggering Super Saiyan. The problem with this theory though, is that Gohan used both Super Saiyan and his potential unleashed state in Battle of Gods.

Anyway, since Elder Kaioshin is watching Gohan fight against Lavenda in the next episode of Super, I hope we’ll get an explanation from him about how Gohan’s power works.

What if instead of replacing his SSJ, Ultimate replaced his SSJ2? I recall some old guides that were made pre-SSJ3 stating that SSJ2 was Grade 5 and brought out a Saiyan's potential.

[Khin]

What if instead of replacing his SSJ, Ultimate replaced his SSJ2? I recall some old guides that were made pre-SSJ3 stating that SSJ2 was Grade 5 and brought out a Saiyan's potential.

Good point. It also explains why the state have lightnings similar to Super Saiyan 2, and why Gohan both used Super Saiyan and his post potential-unlocked state in Battle of Gods. I guess we’ll find out soon (if they’re going to bother explaining it, anyway).

The old guide you mentioned about Super Saiyan 2 being called Super Saiyan Grade 5 is a guide featured in the anime comics version of the Trunks TV Special. The book was published before Goku dubbed the form “Super Saiyan 2” in the manga, which is probably why they called the form that way. But, the book never mentioned anything about “Grade 5” bringing out a Saiyan’s potential. It’s the Daizenshuu 7 that says something along those lines, but it refers to Super Saiyan 3 and not Super Saiyan 2.

[NitroEX]

Toriyama wrote RoF where Gohan goes SSJ. This is obviously what Toriyama wanted.

Are you 100% sure of that? Because based on his own description of it...

It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo. It’s simply something I idly dashed off for the staff, just to help explain the flow of the story and the dialogue! Never in a million years did I think it would get published.

It doesn't sound to me like it was a heavily detailed script. In the same interview he even mentions;

But with an anime, you have to leave part of it up to others, so it’s possible for things to be created beyond what you had ever imagined. That’s the most fun part.

Also, are you just going to ignore the fact that Toei were the one's who revived SSJ Gohan in the first place? GT's story was left completely up to them, not Toriyama. They were the one's to start this trend.

[TekTheNinja]

Ultimate Gohan already had all his power unlocked after the ritual. Toei screwed this up with GT, the movies and Super by nerfing him and making him rely on Super Saiyan again. In the manga and original anime, he no longer required transformations anymore.

Toriyama wrote RoF where Gohan goes SSJ. This is obviously what Toriyama wanted.

That means absolutely nothing. Just because Toriyama wanted it doesn't mean it's a good thing. Toriyama is far from perfect. In fact I think he's made VERY bad decisions in the past. Nerfing the hell outta Gohan for Super and the movies is one of them.

[Totamo]

Ultimate gohan is not a form, it's unlocked potential, its basically all the power you could ever have. But like all potential, you can waste it.

Thats why gohan sucks now.

[Kishido]

It's bullshit now like it was in GT...

Cool that he will regain it but it still makes no sense

[Nejishiki]

Toriyama wrote RoF where Gohan goes SSJ. This is obviously what Toriyama wanted.

Are you 100% sure of that? Because based on his own description of it...

It’s really embarrassing to have this called a “screenplay”. It’d probably be more accurate to say it’s just a memo. It’s simply something I idly dashed off for the staff, just to help explain the flow of the story and the dialogue! Never in a million years did I think it would get published.

It doesn't sound to me like it was a heavily detailed script. In the same interview he even mentions;

But with an anime, you have to leave part of it up to others, so it’s possible for things to be created beyond what you had ever imagined. That’s the most fun part.

Toriyama's script in Volume F records something like, "Gohan instantly defeats Shisami by becoming a Super Saiyan". You're correct in that the script lacks significant detail but he did specify Gohan's transformation.

[Desassina]

Cell used the equivalent of Grade II when he could access his full power. Gohan used SSJ as a shortcut for when he couldn't. Perhaps he needs to train with the ultimate state of power.