Addressing a Toeiism (SSJ x2) with a Toeiism (FSSJ)

[Tectorman]

In another thread, it came to my attention that there was a common thread of SSJ being a very low power-up when used in Toei-exclusive material, i.e., the Z filler, the Z movies, and GT. For example, both Goku and Gohan in what looks like Base were approximate to SSJ Broly in movies 8 and 10. And I'm given to understand that the original dialogue has Rildo calling Goku's power-up to SSJ merely a x2 increase.

My issue with accepting that is twofold. First, why does the form change like that out of nowhere? In-universe, I mean. From Gohan training with the Z Sword in Base and the dialogue confirming that his strength gains there do filter up through the transformations, we know SSJ still acts like a modifier, so it can't simply be a matter of the SSJ Goku used on Namek only happening to be 50x his normal, with the two forms being their own thing afterwards. Second, and of much greater importance, what happened to the mouse (by which, I mean the Kaioken)? If SSJ is all the way down to Base x2, and if he was able to go up to Kaio x10 before he even got strained by the technique, then doesn't it become a much better option than SSJ or even SSJ2?

[spoiler]One thing I want to make abundantly clear: I'm not proposing this at all to explain things that exist in the series proper. This is not supposed to be any kind of explanation for the Frieza>Base Saiyans comment in BoG, nor the 800-3000 Killi measurement, nor the Piccolo-Base Saiyans-Dabra issue. I can't emphasize how this has nothing to do with stuff from the manga itself enough.[/spoiler]

Then I remembered the Pikkon filler material. Not just the Otherworld Tournament, but right before it when he and Goku go to Hell to deal with Cell, the Ginyu Force, Frieza, and King Cold. Goku took down the Ginyu Force and was going to fight Cell (until Pikkon beat him to it), but he looks very unusual doing so. SSJ aura, SSJ-styled hair, but still black and his eyes are also black. Out-of-universe, I'm given to understand that it's because they wanted him to be SSJ here, but then decided to make it a special reveal in the tournament, and so recolored his hair and eyes here.

If we leave it alone, then we have Pikkon (albeit using a special technique) able to down Cell in two hits while wearing weighted clothes, and Goku able to match that in Base in the tournament, and then they're still approximate to each other after Goku gets x50 from SSJ and Pikkon gets a similar boost from losing the weights. Those weights suppress his power that much and Base Goku can still lift them up and chuck them out of the ring as easily as he did? Kind of a bit much to take.

But what if we say he was using a controlled, at-will version of the False Super Saiyan we saw in movie 4 with Lord Slug? That's a thing that looks like Base, but can actually be close to SSJ in power. And if we assume it also puts some undefined amount of strain on the body, then it also provides a satisfactory explanation for why Kaioken isn't an option.

It allows what looked like Goku's Base to be even with Pikkon, for Pikkon to get stronger but not ridiculously so just for taking offsome weights, and for Goku to match that same smaller increase by going SSJ.

If we assume that the other Saiyans also eventually have this form, then it allows Gohan to be able to contend with SSJ Broly in movie 10 in what looks like Base without being a whole fifty times stronger in equivalent forms and without Broly's LSSJ needing to be more than x50.

Regardless of which form of Buu or whether it was General Rildo or Metal Rildo that was stronger than that version of Buu, it allows Goku to fight such a being looking normal but without quite the excessive power boost between Z and GT, since he can fight looking normal without this actually reflecting his Base power level.

Thoughts?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even if we assume this is the case, there's no way Base (I'm going to refer to this so called "FSSJ" as base) Goku would be anywhere close to someone who can thrash Cell. Even in SSJ he wouldn't stand a chance against Pikkon, let alone base.

If SSJ were reduced to a 2-3x multiplier, though, the feats displayed in the movies would actually make sense. After their respective trips to the RoSAT, Vegeta barely measured up to a quarter of Goku's power so it makes sense that even a Super Saiyan he wouldn't be able to even budge Broly who was in the same league as Base Goku.
It'd be something like this:
Vegeta: 1 SSJ: 2.5
Broly: 1.6 SSJ: 4
Goku: 4

[Tectorman]

Even if we assume this is the case, there's no way Base (I'm going to refer to this so called "FSSJ" as base) Goku would be anywhere close to someone who can thrash Cell. Even in SSJ he wouldn't stand a chance against Pikkon, let alone base.

I address that by assuming an environmental debuff on Cell's power. (And bear in mind, we have to come up with some way to explain Goku not using SSJ against Super Perfect Cell whether we say he was in Base or in this hypothetical FSSJ.) In essence, we know that the proper process for beings sent to Hell is that they are cleansed of their memories and then reintroduced into the reincarnation cycle. Combining both the series proper and the filler material, we can assume that this process occurs naturally for people sent to Hell but genuinely remorseful (such as Majin Vegeta), but not automatically if the person in question is unwilling and more powerful than normal (Cell, Frieza, et al).

I take that to mean that unwilling and powerful people sent to Hell have to be (for lack of a better world) "digested" until the process can take hold. So SP Cell was not actually as powerful as he had been before his death. He probably had no idea at the time. Goku, however, probably could already tell, hence he felt that Base/FSSJ was all he needed. (Why he didn't go ahead and use SSJ still remains a mystery but it's a mystery regardless of what we call what Goku used in that scene.)

[theherodjl]

I am willing to believe that the Saiyans are capable of drawing up large amounts of latent power while in base state through rage, concentration, or both as a result of having been exposed to the Super Saiyan form for so long. Goku absorbing the SSJG power-up may be a continuation of this concept and might explain why it was possible in the first place.

[Speedster]

But what if we say he was using a controlled, at-will version of the False Super Saiyan we saw in movie 4 with Lord Slug? That's a thing that looks like Base, but can actually be close to SSJ in power. Thoughts?

If you want to go down that route why not equally say that he is using KKx10 (which against Freeza was indistinguishable from his regular form) or even KKx20, but he turns it off when he transforms into SSJ?

[TheUltimateNinja]

But what if we say he was using a controlled, at-will version of the False Super Saiyan we saw in movie 4 with Lord Slug? That's a thing that looks like Base, but can actually be close to SSJ in power. Thoughts?

If you want to go down that route why not equally say that he is using KKx10 (which against Freeza was indistinguishable from his regular form) or even KKx20, but he turns it off when he transforms into SSJ?

Gohan doesn't know Kaioken.

[Speedster]

Gohan doesn't know Kaioken.

How are you so sure that Gohan didn’t learn KK? Goku trained him for 4 years after all. And the premise is that if Goku is using KK without visibly showing it, why would Gohan show it?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Gohan doesn't know Kaioken.

How are you so sure that Gohan didn’t learn KK? Goku trained him for 4 years after all. And the premise is that if Goku is using KK without visibly showing it, why would Gohan show it?

No one besides Goku has ever shown the ability to use Kaioken.

[Tectorman]

Actually, for the longest time, I had considered the instances of Goku showing great power while in what looks like Base to be him using a chantless, auraless Kaioken. In fact, I consider that to be exactly what he was doing when he punched Dr. Gero to make him stop destroying the city (not to explain how he was able to punch the stronger Dr. Gero because he could probably still do that in Base, but to explain what it was that triggered the heart virus to start showing symptoms then rather than some other time).

From Pikkon onwards, however, I don't consider what he's doing to be an unacknowledged Kaioken for two reasons. 1) While I'm comfortable giving Kaioken the qualities of now being auraless and chantless, I'm not comfortable saying that all of a sudden, it's no longer as stressful on the body as it was. 2) When he's powered up against the Ginyu Force and Cell, it's a SSJ aura and SSJ-styled black hair.

We could equally say he (and the other Saiyans) is using FSSJ or an auraless Kaioken x20, but one of those canonically (as far as Toeiisms are concerned) uses the color yellow and is less stressful on the body. And while we can theorize that he could have taught the others Kaioken behind the scenes, there is, I feel, less theorizing required to explain how the other Saiyans could take the SSJ we already know they have and figure out the FSSJ from it.

[Pantalones]

But what if we say he was using a controlled, at-will version of the False Super Saiyan we saw in movie 4 with Lord Slug? That's a thing that looks like Base, but can actually be close to SSJ in power.

One problem... "False Super Saiyan" isn't a thing. "False Super Saiyan" is not even a "Toei-ism," it's a fan-ism. Toei didn't have the "official" Super Saiyan design yet when the movie was made but they wanted to have Goku go Super Saiyan anyway, so they came up with their own design just for that movie (and all things considered they actually weren't too far off from the real design used in the rest of the series; raised spiky hair, golden aura, and rage... just got the color scheme wrong, pretty much.)

In in-universe terms, the Lord Slug movie is an alternate universe of some sort where Super Saiyan is that red form Goku used. It's not some "lesser" form, just plain ol' Super Saiyan. So Goku can't use that version of Super Saiyan if he can use the golden version, the two different(-looking) forms don't exist in the same reality.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But what if we say he was using a controlled, at-will version of the False Super Saiyan we saw in movie 4 with Lord Slug? That's a thing that looks like Base, but can actually be close to SSJ in power.

One problem... "False Super Saiyan" isn't a thing. "False Super Saiyan" is not even a "Toei-ism," it's a fan-ism. Toei didn't have the "official" Super Saiyan design yet when the movie was made but they wanted to have Goku go Super Saiyan anyway, so they came up with their own design just for that movie (and all things considered they actually weren't too far off from the real design used in the rest of the series; raised spiky hair, golden aura, and rage... just got the color scheme wrong, pretty much.)

In in-universe terms, the Lord Slug movie is an alternate universe of some sort where Super Saiyan is that red form Goku used. It's not some "lesser" form, just plain ol' Super Saiyan. So Goku can't use that version of Super Saiyan if he can use the golden version, the two different(-looking) forms don't exist in the same reality.

The simplest explanation is that Toei just doesn't think SSJ is that good.