Thoughts, Opinions, Baggage... Before The Tournament

[Kastex]

behold, this is the final week we can talk about anything tournament related (or just anything in general) pre tournament. so there are a lot of thoughts, opinions, and baggage we should let loose before things get hot. of course, it will also be fun to discuss things (spoilers up until episode 96)

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i'd like to start off by saying while i no longer stand beside what i said in this thread http://bit.ly/2sOWbBI, i am instead standing behind it.... or maybe in front of it. whichever position is better in case i am wrong. on top of it, maybe? anyway, the reason i brought that up is because i am starting to think that the alliance between team u7 and team u6 MIGHT not be as necessary as i first thought. it might not even be possible, thanks to caulifla. lol like, that remark she made about u7 saiyans. we all know how prideful vegeta can be, so i'm thinking that was a pretty big deal to him. also because of the new blood on team u6. they have no clue what team u7 is about, so they might not feel comfortable forming an alliance with them. we know that team u7 is all z fighters with the exception of one asshole, so they would be able to handle forming an alliance with unfamiliar or strange characters. i mean, most of team u7 is comprised of characters who used to fit that description and were even villains. and fucking Freeza.

there is something strange i'd like to talk about that happened in this episode, regarding caulifla. i'm sure some of you like minded smarties have noticed as well and already deduced what i am referring to. this actually ties in to the remark she made regarding u7 saiyans that i was talking about earlier. i'll explain in moderate detail for those who have forgotten, or who are not sure what i am talking about. as you know (if you watched the episode), cabba, caulifla, and kale engaged universe 7 in um... confabulation? whatever it was. that's when universe 11 showed up (the universe jiren is in) and right away pretty much everyone shown from u7 was surprised at the energy they were feeling (obviously from jiren), and cabba was surprised too. so obviously there is a reason for that. i mean, we're talking about the same group who achieved the powers of super saiyan blue, some weird ultimate form, battled against super buu, even fucking beerus. yes, those guys were surprised feeling jiren's energy. then here comes caulifla calling team u11 "wimps", and says the u7 saiyans are nothing to be worried about because they were surprised from that energy (if the translation was correct) how fckn strong is she..... take some time to let that sink in.

i suppose it's possible that they were actually surprised at the big ear guy from universe 11 since he is from the same species as beerus, maybe his energy kinda felt like beerus' energy and that caught them off guard. meaning that they weren't surprised at feeling the strength of the energy, but the nature of it. then again maybe after becoming a god of destruction your energy signature changes completely. in which case, it is definitely jiren (also more evidence of this being the case is that goku was instantly drawn to him, rather than bears^TM (bears, short for "big ears", referring to the fighter on team u11 that kinda looks like beerus, and bears kinda sounds like beers, which is very similar to beerus, which is kinda punny since they look alike). meaning caulifla must simply be scary powerful now.

i suppose i was also wrong about frieza and frost not wanting anything to do with each other. obviously they won't be able to see each other as being trustworthy or be able to trust each other even if they do work together. they are definitely not the same person, but it's possible they could come to see each other as something similar to brothers. it makes sense every living creature have some degree of desire for companionship. frieza's species is rare in that they have no need for loved ones, but they can still have family. frieza still desires his army (even though he killed them all), and frost wanted everyone to see him as some kind of hero. both for selfish reasons, but it's still a form of companionship. frieza had his father and king cold had frieza. they seemed to be somewhat in agreement with that arrangement, since they did not battle each other. king cold looked out for frieza and frieza listened to his commands. if frieza and frost are able to reach the point where they can see each other as brothers, i believe the odds of them ever battling each other seriously will be very low.

anyway, this entire episode was just super exciting for me. it's not technically the start of the tournament, but i've been super hyped for this from the moment this arc started. that battle between those three gods of destruction on the first half of the episode was LIT!!!!!! okay it wasn't like the best thing ever, but it was pretty awesome. we've never seen that caliber of battle (three way destroyer battle) before, and i'm pretty sure most of us thought we'd never see it.
that team u7 counselling scene was pretty awesome too. team building, informative, funny. we've pretty much got to see everyone level out with each other. the awkwardness is more or less gone, and everyone was put on the same page as each other (in terms of acknowledging that they are all team u7 and losing means erasure). lol the friendship circle part was pretty awesome. it was funny how frieza and beerus started grabbing by the wrists. lol this was funny to me because it reminds of when i was a kid in school and in class sometimes we would do similar grouping activities requiring holding hands in a circle. usually i and other guys would just grab by the wrists because it was kinda awkward grabbing by the hands. or at least thanks to outside influences that brainwashed us kids into thinking something as innocent as boys holding hands with other boys was awkward.

lol the funniest part of the episode was probably this. it was so quick and random so it was more of a surprise laugh from me, but it still gets me every time. they probably did that since champa is a familiar character to us but he wouldn't have any lines or even be shown during the episode otherwise, so they figured they might as well just throw him in there quick.



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(i'll likely be typing out more thoughts, opinions, and baggage dumps here not necessarily related to episode 96 later. it's late....)

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any responses to my opinions? feel free to do any dumping of your own.

[TBMx]

I think Caulifla was running her mouth out of ignorance, the way the Ginyu force did.

[Kastex]

I think Caulifla was running her mouth out of ignorance, the way the Ginyu force did.

i don't think so. everyone turned to see universe 11 appear out of sheer shock from the energy they were feeling. caulifla turned around at the exact same time, but her reflexive reaction was unimpressed. she definitely felt jiren's energy too. if she was just talking shit then her reflexive reaction would have been different from her response afterwards. but the reflexive reaction was just as her response was.

knowing that she felt the same thing everyone else was feeling, but she was the only one who seemed unimpressed (kale didn't seem too surprised either, but that's different). it just goes to show that she may be exceptionally stronger than she was when we last saw her.

if this is the case (and it most likely is) then it doesn't make sense. i don't care how talented they are, none of those u6 saiyans should even be as strong as gohan. it would be complete bullshit if so. they've only been training for a couple hours.....

[Jigurashi]

I don't know, I don't see her being as strong as you seem to think she may have gotten. She seems to just be pretty arrogant and confident in her own abilities. Then again, she also didn't directly confront the Pride Troopers and meet Jiren face-to-face like Goku did.

[Kastex]

I don't know, I don't see her being as strong as you seem to think she may have gotten. She seems to just be pretty arrogant and confident in her own abilities. Then again, she also didn't directly confront the Pride Troopers and meet Jiren face-to-face like Goku did.

indeed. after thinking it through some more, i understand what happened. so we know that everyone has their full power, and techniques that take them beyond their full power. they can also control their power, lowering or raising it whenever they want.

with that in mind it's safe to assume that most fighters will lower their energy when they are not in combat. in the tournament of power specifically, everyone must have their power lowered since they are not fighting yet. i believe that jiren had his power lowed as well of course, but the power level he was at was higher than everyone else there. not just that, but it was high enough to surprise even the z warriors. i don't think this power they sensed from jiren was even stronger than piccolo's full power, but it was so strong for a relaxed state that it was surprising.

so i suppose when caulifla first sensed this, she was only interested in the power she was sensing, and since it was not stronger than her full power she didn't care. so the reasons everyone else was surprised didn't occur to her. because of this she was able to be arrogant.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I personally thought they were implying her to be inexperienced and naive with that remark...not strong. She has a lot of qualities of Goku as was pointed out by the man himself. She's like an arrogant Kid Goku...seriously think about it. Goku was never really "Impressed" by anything. I've even considered the idea she can't sense others Ki very well.


I'm really just hoping everyone is treated well. I'm beginning to wonder if Hit won't be the one to eliminate Toppo before going down to Jiren. Either way I'd like to see him battle someone not from U7.

[Kastex]

I personally thought they were implying her to be inexperienced and naive with that remark...not strong. She has a lot of qualities of Goku as was pointed out by the man himself. She's like an arrogant Kid Goku...seriously think about it. Goku was never really "Impressed" by anything. I've even considered the idea she can't sense others Ki very well.


I'm really just hoping everyone is treated well. I'm beginning to wonder if Hit won't be the one to eliminate Toppo before going down to Jiren. Either way I'd like to see him battle someone not from U7.

i considered that at first glance. i believe she can sense ki well because she sensed it from cabba when he showed her ss. her energy manipulation capabilities are probably better than most fighters in the show (i know energy manipulation and sensing the energy of others is different, but both of those skills still go hand in hand). also, when team u11 arrived on the arena, caulifla and kale turned around at the exact same time as everyone else. they all literally reacted at the same time to the sudden appearance of that energy, meaning they all must have sensed the energy.

[Kastex]

speaking of the u6 saiyans. is anyone else thinking they might make vegeta develop an inferiority complex? i mean it kinda makes sense if you think about it.

first of all, the u6 saiyans probably have more potential on average than the u7 saiyans did. vegeta can't really play the "I AM THE PRINCE OF ALL SAIYANS!!!" card with them, because he's really not. he's prince of like one saiyan (goku), and that saiyan doesn't even obey his orders and he's stronger than vegeta. the only reason he's a prince is because their original planet was destroyed and i guess the vegeta family took control when they migrated, otherwise his family line would probably be a bunch of grunts or servants. not to mention planet vegeta is gone too and the pure blooded saiyans are about to die out.

lol with all that in mind i think vegeta might start to catch some feelings.

[IKevinX]

I think Caulifla was running her mouth out of ignorance, the way the Ginyu force did.

i don't think so. everyone turned to see universe 11 appear out of sheer shock from the energy they were feeling. caulifla turned around at the exact same time, but her reflexive reaction was unimpressed. she definitely felt jiren's energy too. if she was just talking shit then her reflexive reaction would have been different from her response afterwards. but the reflexive reaction was just as her response was.

knowing that she felt the same thing everyone else was feeling, but she was the only one who seemed unimpressed (kale didn't seem too surprised either, but that's different). it just goes to show that she may be exceptionally stronger than she was when we last saw her.

if this is the case (and it most likely is) then it doesn't make sense. i don't care how talented they are, none of those u6 saiyans should even be as strong as gohan. it would be complete bullshit if so. they've only been training for a couple hours.....

I disagree. Rewatching the scene when U11 appears, Goku, Vegeta and Cabba look instantly. Whereas Caulifla only looks because they are looking so she was caught in the momentum, not because she felt it.
Or maybe she did and is just running her mouth.
But I bet on the first guess.

[Kastex]

I think Caulifla was running her mouth out of ignorance, the way the Ginyu force did.

i don't think so. everyone turned to see universe 11 appear out of sheer shock from the energy they were feeling. caulifla turned around at the exact same time, but her reflexive reaction was unimpressed. she definitely felt jiren's energy too. if she was just talking shit then her reflexive reaction would have been different from her response afterwards. but the reflexive reaction was just as her response was.

knowing that she felt the same thing everyone else was feeling, but she was the only one who seemed unimpressed (kale didn't seem too surprised either, but that's different). it just goes to show that she may be exceptionally stronger than she was when we last saw her.

if this is the case (and it most likely is) then it doesn't make sense. i don't care how talented they are, none of those u6 saiyans should even be as strong as gohan. it would be complete bullshit if so. they've only been training for a couple hours.....

I disagree. Rewatching the scene when U11 appears, Goku, Vegeta and Cabba look instantly. Whereas Caulifla only looks because they are looking so she was caught in the momentum, not because she felt it.
Or maybe she did and is just running her mouth.
But I bet on the first guess.

yes, i see what you mean. i'm not sure that's what it meant though. i think it was an instance of character prioritization. in the background we can see that piccolo and gohan have reacted too, but they were already focusing on the area of interest before goku, cabba, and vegeta turned around. then we see caulifla and kale turning around at the same time the light sphere appears with universe 11. we also hear caulifla and kale gasp a little bit the same way goku and vegeta did. i think these scene was meant to be portrayed as them all reacting at the same time.

you are probably right in that caulifla was talking shit out of ignorance a little bit. perhaps after thinking about it she figured that since the energy she was feeling was not greater than her full power it made her believe that she had nothing to worry about. i think that she simply does not understand how strong some of these fighters can be, blinded by her own talent and potential. which also makes her a bit arrogant.

[GodKaio-Ken]

I personally thought they were implying her to be inexperienced and naive with that remark...not strong. She has a lot of qualities of Goku as was pointed out by the man himself. She's like an arrogant Kid Goku...seriously think about it. Goku was never really "Impressed" by anything. I've even considered the idea she can't sense others Ki very well.


I'm really just hoping everyone is treated well. I'm beginning to wonder if Hit won't be the one to eliminate Toppo before going down to Jiren. Either way I'd like to see him battle someone not from U7.

i considered that at first glance. i believe she can sense ki well because she sensed it from cabba when he showed her ss. her energy manipulation capabilities are probably better than most fighters in the show (i know energy manipulation and sensing the energy of others is different, but both of those skills still go hand in hand). also, when team u11 arrived on the arena, caulifla and kale turned around at the exact same time as everyone else. they all literally reacted at the same time to the sudden appearance of that energy, meaning they all must have sensed the energy.

Yeah I dont mean she cant "sense it" I mean she cant sense its scope. Id bet my life she isnt stronger than or even on the same level as Jiren or Goku though regardless of her abilities...she was being an idiot.

[Freeza9000]

To be honest, Future Trunks would've been a much better replacement for Boo than Freeza, Yamcha, Goten or Kid Trunks and I'm surprised that no one in the team at least thought of that. Future Trunks benefits the U7 the most considering how powerful he's gotten in the previous story arc. It's also considering how he saved the Present timeline and gave every one present on the team a chance to survive. Gohan, especially since his future self was Trunks's master and now the leader of the team, had a chance to live his life as a scholar with a happy family, Goku got a chance to survive the awaited heart virus, Trunks's father got to reform and live, 17 and 18 reformed and were blessed with families, etc. Future Trunks would definitely make a suitably appropriate addition to the team considering his connections with all of them.

Also, the fact that killing is actually prohibited in the ToP is just inconceivably stupid and idiotic. What's the big fucking deal?! The losing universes and their fighters are going to be erased from existence anyway (which is a far worse fate than simple death), so why even give a shit about that? As a matter of fact, a death of a U7 member like Vegeta or Gohan would add a lot of tension and drama to the story. It would also help raise the stakes even more as each member of every universe will be resorting to any means to survive this "war", hence the Universal Survival Arc.

[omaro34]

To be honest, Future Trunks would've been a much better replacement for Boo than Freeza, Yamcha, Goten or Kid Trunks and I'm surprised that no one in the team at least thought of that. Future Trunks benefits the U7 the most considering how powerful he's gotten in the previous story arc. It's also considering how he saved the Present timeline and gave every one present on the team a chance to survive. Gohan, especially since his future self was Trunks's master and now the leader of the team, had a chance to live his life as a scholar with a happy family, Goku got a chance to survive the awaited heart virus, Trunks's father got to reform and live, 17 and 18 reformed and were blessed with families, etc. Future Trunks would definitely make a suitably appropriate addition to the team considering his connections with all of them.

Also, the fact that killing is actually prohibited in the ToP is just inconceivably stupid and idiotic. What's the big fucking deal?! The losing universes and their fighters are going to be erased from existence anyway (which is a far worse fate than simple death), so why even give a shit about that? As a matter of fact, a death of a U7 member like Vegeta or Gohan would add a lot of tension and drama to the story. It would also help raise the stakes even more as each member of every universe will be resorting to any means to survive this "war", hence the Universal Survival Arc.

Future Trunks would have been a good idea, but they have no idea which timeline he went to. There are so many timelines now that searching for him would be a big risk, one that's not worth it.

[Akyon]

To be honest, Future Trunks would've been a much better replacement for Boo than Freeza, Yamcha, Goten or Kid Trunks and I'm surprised that no one in the team at least thought of that. Future Trunks benefits the U7 the most considering how powerful he's gotten in the previous story arc. It's also considering how he saved the Present timeline and gave every one present on the team a chance to survive. Gohan, especially since his future self was Trunks's master and now the leader of the team, had a chance to live his life as a scholar with a happy family, Goku got a chance to survive the awaited heart virus, Trunks's father got to reform and live, 17 and 18 reformed and were blessed with families, etc. Future Trunks would definitely make a suitably appropriate addition to the team considering his connections with all of them.

Also, the fact that killing is actually prohibited in the ToP is just inconceivably stupid and idiotic. What's the big fucking deal?! The losing universes and their fighters are going to be erased from existence anyway (which is a far worse fate than simple death), so why even give a shit about that? As a matter of fact, a death of a U7 member like Vegeta or Gohan would add a lot of tension and drama to the story. It would also help raise the stakes even more as each member of every universe will be resorting to any means to survive this "war", hence the Universal Survival Arc.

Future Trunks would have been a good idea, but they have no idea which timeline he went to. There are so many timelines now that searching for him would be a big risk, one that's not worth it.

Whis does as he's the one who took him and Mai to the timeline. But probably due to more time travelling and it being a very big sin in the Gods eyes(maybe even a punishable by erasure crime?) he wasn't considered.

To this day I wonder why they didn't just stay in Goku's timeline though.

I'm curious about how they're going to tackle Kale. She's a berserker who probably hasn't got the ability to hold back her strength as she loses her senses...outside of Frieza I see her as one of the most likely to break that no killing rule.
Will Goku and Vegeta stomp her or is the LSSJ now going to be superior to even SSB?

[Pluto]

This just popped out of my mind...

There are 6 Saiyans at the ToP, three of them being very doubtful characters (U6).
It coincidentally takes 6 Saiyans for the Saiyan God ritual.

Any parallels?

[Kastex]

To be honest, Future Trunks would've been a much better replacement for Boo than Freeza, Yamcha, Goten or Kid Trunks and I'm surprised that no one in the team at least thought of that. Future Trunks benefits the U7 the most considering how powerful he's gotten in the previous story arc. It's also considering how he saved the Present timeline and gave every one present on the team a chance to survive. Gohan, especially since his future self was Trunks's master and now the leader of the team, had a chance to live his life as a scholar with a happy family, Goku got a chance to survive the awaited heart virus, Trunks's father got to reform and live, 17 and 18 reformed and were blessed with families, etc. Future Trunks would definitely make a suitably appropriate addition to the team considering his connections with all of them.

Also, the fact that killing is actually prohibited in the ToP is just inconceivably stupid and idiotic. What's the big fucking deal?! The losing universes and their fighters are going to be erased from existence anyway (which is a far worse fate than simple death), so why even give a shit about that? As a matter of fact, a death of a U7 member like Vegeta or Gohan would add a lot of tension and drama to the story. It would also help raise the stakes even more as each member of every universe will be resorting to any means to survive this "war", hence the Universal Survival Arc.

i think the no killing rule makes perfect sense actually. erasing is completely different from killing. i admit that the tournament probably would be a bit more intense if killing was allowed (like, just the highest point of tension), but then we would be wondering why characters like hit and frieza aren't taking out at least half the fighters within the first few minutes. i am imagining jiren just running super fast all over the arena literally charging or close lining other fighters to death before they know what's hitting them. if he's faster than goku then he can just do that kill all the fighters within seconds. or why krillin doesn't just throw out dozens of destructo disks to slice up random enemies. also why body parts, half minced corpses and pools of blood aren't all over the arena floor. it would simply shatter the immersion. through the entire tournament we would be wondering why these things aren't happening.
the tournament would rely exceedingly more on individual power rather than teamwork. so it would just be another goku/vegeta carry from u7, hit carry from u6, jiren carry from u11. you know what i mean. the stronger foes would go to get quick kills on weak fighters and the weak fighters would have to be defended. everyone would be complaining that more than half the fighters are completely useless.

from a viewer perspective it is likely overall better to have the no killing rule. it helps to balance things out. we can see the weaker characters do cool things. it might be less enjoyable in some ways too. characters like goku are looking for a good fight. we know goku loves battle but he doesn't like evil. if we are seeing evil bastards in the tournament just massacring each other, characters like goku might not have as much fun which may also effect the viewers.
from the grand priest perspective i guess he doesn't want zen chan to develop a lust for violence. he probably doesn't have a concept of killing. he doesn't want rotting parts and body fluids all over his arena? i suppose the grand priest isn't pro violence either. erasing is different from killing since they are deities and erasure is a necessary part of running an omniverse.
from an animator perspective, like i said before, body parts, corpses, and blood all over the arena. they may either try to add these in and fail at making it work properly, or just not add it in and the immersion gets shattered.

[Kastex]

i suppose this is it. makes sense for this thread to be closed after tomorrow, when the majority of regular viewers watch the new episode of super.

android 17's barrier ability is SICK!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i really think andoid 17 is going to shine in this tournament and it's going to be epic. piccolo too. i just want to see awesome stuff from the other z fighters. i believe we will. nobody likes 10+ episode battles, but if it's multiple awesome battle spanning over 10+ episodes i'm sure that will be great. might not happen though.