Caulifla - Why her power ups are bad, but not as bad as you might think

[Asura]

So lets get the obvious out of the way first. Caulifla being able to ascend this fast up the Super Saiyan ladder in a matter of mere hours is bullshit. The only explanation given to us is that she's a genius. Then again, Kale is apparently a genius since she did it too. What we have here is an incredibly lazy way that the author's decided to go about Caulifla's character (and Kale too, but we'll get to her later) in that they knew they had to power her up for the tournament. At this point, what's the use in Saiyans that can't even transform yet? Caulifla wouldn't be nearly as interesting if she never got a transformation. First female SSJ has to count for something too, right?

Before we talk about why this isn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be, lets first try and theorize how we could have made Caulifla's introduction better and skipped giving her two transformations (technically three with USSJ) in a matter of hours. Caulifla is talked about as some sort of prodigy. Her older brother, Renso, was a Captain of the Sadala Defense Forces. Given the fact that she's a prodigy and that no one else is a Super Saiyan (aside from Cabba who she didn't know at the time) the show could have very easily introduced us to her with her Super Saiyan powers already unlocked. Renso would probably have tried to convince her to join the Sadala Defense Forces due to her power, but for some reason or another she decided screw that and started up a gang instead, where everyone admired her for her power.

This is when Cabba comes in, who is also a Super Saiyan. She thought she was the only one, now there are two. This greatly intrigues her since no one has been able to please her lust for combat, and she agrees to join the U6 team at the promise of fighting strong people and becoming stronger herself. After this, she takes Kale and tries to get her to awaken her dormant power (which Caulifla might say she saw a glimpse of before). Kale transforms into an Awful Broly Clone (remember your ABC's kids) and tries to kill Cabba because she's overprotective of Caulifla and sees Cabba as someone who is taking Caulifla's attention away from her. Caulifla is initially very impressed with Kale even as she tries to kill Cabba just like in the anime, but eventually realizes she has to fight Kale back. It's during this fight where she achieves SSJ2 and knocks Kale out, but she isn't able to achieve the form again until the tournament with Goku. In my opinion, this is how Caulifla should have been introduced and written. There wouldn't be any bullshit transformations, no SSJ in hours deal, and the SSJ2 transformation would be understandable due to the circumstances and the fact that we don't know how strong Caulifla actually is that she'd be able to tap into it.

But we have to live with what's already written, which is that her power ups are complete and total BS and don't make any sense. Why then, you might ask, is this actually not a big deal as people make it out to be?

It's simple really, the answer is perspective. With this latest episode, "perspective" has revealed itself to play a very huge role with the characters of Caulifla and Kale. Similar to Caulifla, Kale achieved the ABC transformation in a matter of mere hours. This transformation is so powerful that she literally crushes the arena with every step she takes. Given the fact that this arena is fucking awful (real bang-up job there GP!) and it's breaking all over the place, this might not seem like a big deal but she's literally breaking it just by walking. That's intense compared to how it's being broken by other people. She's also able to take Goku's SSB Kamehameha to the face with zero physical damage. Kale's transformation has ascended her into godhood. She's probably just as strong (if not much stronger) than Goku was when he fought Beerus. She became that strong in a matter of hours.

However, Caulifla is an entirely different story. She achieved SSJ, USSJ, and SSJ2 in hours. What does that actually mean though? The way she transformed and got the power-up is nonsense, but is the actual power-up itself nonsense? At her current best which is SSJ2, she was going toe to toe with SSJ2 Goku who seemed to have no problem fighting her at all. It seemed like Goku was enjoying himself, but clearly Caulifla's SSJ2 wasn't even on the same level of Goku's SSJ2. It's not to say that Caulifla is weak, it's just that Goku is too strong and far out of her league. She's getting all these transformations left and right, but the reality is these transformations are actually very grounded in reality. She feels like someone who is legitimately at SSJ/SSJ2 level. Her power scaling is actually written in a way that makes sense. She's treated as a Mary Sue when it comes to getting these transformations, but in terms of how she racks up against everyone else? She's not a Mary Sue at all.

So that brings us back to perspective. Kale gets a transformation in an hour and suddenly she's on SSB Goku's level. Caulifla gets SSJ2 in an hour and she's not even on SSJ2 Goku's level. Her power is grounded, her scaling makes sense. In summary, the power-ups are poorly written but the actual execution of these power-ups are written nicely, especially when put in perspective to the garbage known as Kale and all the other terrible power scaling blunders Super has committed.

[Asura]

Huh. Thought this would be a more popular topic given all the controversy. Bump!

[Marlowe89]

I've always thought that the "genius" explanation sufficed well enough for Caulifla, so I didn't think it required any sort of huge justification or anything. She can reach Super Saiyan 2 that quickly simply because she's just that strong and talented -- unusual for sure, but not impossible.

Kale, on the other hand... well that's a little harder to swallow if we're led to believe that her transformation really is as powerful as it was suggested to be. Then again, it's a unique form in Dragon Ball canon if we disregard the films, so I guess the writers feel they can just go wild because of that.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I mean, we have the out of universe answer for this- Super Saiyans are cool and symbols of later Dragon Ball. And any bars of training or age were almost immediately hurled out the window with Future Trunks, with pre-teen Gohan, Goten and Trunks to follow.

In-universe, well Universe 6's Saiyans survived and thrived, but, for some reason, never donned the golden mantle. Whose to say the best of them weren't long since ready to transform, and Vegeta simply removed a long-wedged stopgap by showing Cabbe how it worked? This doesn't demerit our Saiyans in any way: Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's experiences are glorified in discovering Super Saiyan first! Gohan's achieving what he did at eleven years old- younger and perhaps less consistently trained than our Universe 6 goldies- is a far greater affront to the other two.

As for Kale's Broly-form, I don't take too much issue with it. First because Gohan demonstrated at the ripe old age of four that young age can't hold a prodigious Saiyan down. Or eleven year old Gohan with a case of the ragins' > his savant father and life-long trained prince of all saiyans. Kale just had the power and seems to be fortifying it with the particulars of Broly's form.

But if you want some quantification... I always figured Broly's form was so built on physical impregnability that it could easily take even more than it could dish out. That and Goku repelled her repeatedly, he could never manage with Broly.

[The gr]

She's a prodigy's so it kinda make sense she getting ss1 but I wanted a better transformation and reason for this because the way they executed it was rubbish

Kale is the one I can't defend since the in universe never acknowledges her potential,like is there a scene where caulifla say that kale have a lot potential because that would have help

why can toriyama just use the ssg ritual to power his new saiyans character to god tier because the saiyans from u6 are pure hearted

[Asura]

I mean, we have the out of universe answer for this- Super Saiyans are cool and symbols of later Dragon Ball. And any bars of training or age were almost immediately hurled out the window with Future Trunks, with pre-teen Gohan

I don't understand what you mean here. Future Trunks and Gohan trained their asses off to achieve Super Saiyan. Trunks lost his best friend and mentor. Gohan almost killed himself in the RoSaT.

In-universe, well Universe 6's Saiyans survived and thrived, but, for some reason, never donned the golden mantle. Whose to say the best of them weren't long since ready to transform, and Vegeta simply removed a long-wedged stopgap by showing Cabbe how it worked? This doesn't demerit our Saiyans in any way: Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan's experiences are glorified in discovering Super Saiyan first! Gohan's achieving what he did at eleven years old- younger and perhaps less consistently trained than our Universe 6 goldies- is a far greater affront to the other two.

But is that really a satisfying answer? Just that hey, who's to say they shouldn't be Super Saiyans? I mean really the issue isn't who's to say they shouldn't (since like I said in the OP I agree that they should be Super Saiyans), but rather how they decide to go about giving them the transformations. That's the real issue.

It seems like you keep alluding to the fact that The U6 Saiyans have done a lot more than Gohan did up to the Cell Games, or are at least less offensive than Gohan and his transformations. Nothing we've been shown really implies that any of them are constantly training to intense limits and fighting people much stronger than them. Caulifla is clearly bored because she has no one to fight near her level. I'm sure Cabba and the Sadala Defense Forces don't really see any insane action either. And then of course there's Kale who probably does jack shit. In contrast, we saw Gohan growing up being forced to fight with not only his own life on the line, but the lives of others as well. He worked his ass off to achieve Super Saiyan and SSJ2 was a result of the foreshadowed anger power-ups he's gotten since the beginning of the series. U6 Saiyans don't have anything even close to that.

[precita]

I think they just need to mention in canon that Universe 6 Saiyans are just born extremely strong from the getgo. It's why Cabba was a match for base Vegeta at the U6 tournament. It's just that none of them ever knew about the legend of Super Saiyan.

There is no other logical explanation. U7 Saiyans were born extremely weak for whatever reason.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

It seems like you keep alluding to the fact that The U6 Saiyans have done a lot more than Gohan did up to the Cell Games, or are at least less offensive than Gohan and his transformations. Nothing we've been shown really implies that any of them are constantly training to intense limits and fighting people much stronger than them. Caulifla is clearly bored because she has no one to fight near her level. I'm sure Cabba and the Sadala Defense Forces don't really see any insane action either. And then of course there's Kale who probably does jack shit. In contrast, we saw Gohan growing up being forced to fight with not only his own life on the line, but the lives of others as well. He worked his ass off to achieve Super Saiyan and SSJ2 was a result of the foreshadowed anger power-ups he's gotten since the beginning of the series. U6 Saiyans don't have anything even close to that.

It is an assumption, but is it really all that big of one? It raises the question of how none of them hit Super Saiyan beforehand, sure, but that just makes more sense to me than pure prodigious-ness. But even if in-universe logic does fall apart, it's ultimately another case of Trunks and Goten anyway- they have it, but in getting the forms so quickly they can't get anywhere near as much out of it as those who really worked for it.

[fadeddreams5]

Caulifa's power ups are terrible, but they don't bother me because Dragon Ball Super has long since jumped the shark with its ridiculous power scaling and nonsensical character buffs.

Prior to this show, people would have scoffed at the notion of Raditz coming back and becoming a SSJ2 through intense training in the RoSAT for a year. Nowadays, it's entirely plausible for him to come back and become SSJ3 in mere hours by getting tinglyness in his back. This can happen, and nobody would (or should) be surprised, given the direction of this show.

[TheOne]

It seems like you keep alluding to the fact that The U6 Saiyans have done a lot more than Gohan did up to the Cell Games, or are at least less offensive than Gohan and his transformations. Nothing we've been shown really implies that any of them are constantly training to intense limits and fighting people much stronger than them. Caulifla is clearly bored because she has no one to fight near her level. I'm sure Cabba and the Sadala Defense Forces don't really see any insane action either. And then of course there's Kale who probably does jack shit. In contrast, we saw Gohan growing up being forced to fight with not only his own life on the line, but the lives of others as well. He worked his ass off to achieve Super Saiyan and SSJ2 was a result of the foreshadowed anger power-ups he's gotten since the beginning of the series. U6 Saiyans don't have anything even close to that.

It is an assumption, but is it really all that big of one? It raises the question of how none of them hit Super Saiyan beforehand, sure, but that just makes more sense to me than pure prodigious-ness. But even if in-universe logic does fall apart, it's ultimately another case of Trunks and Goten anyway- they have it, but in getting the forms so quickly they can't get anywhere near as much out of it as those who really worked for it.

Not true about the Goten and Trunks not getting much out of it. Goten and Trunks just don't have the same drive to train as their fathers do. Its more for fun. Which is believable seeing as how the human side mellows out the saiyan side. I personally believe that they'll definitely surpass their dads if they ever trained the way they did. We can all say the same thing about Gohan as well.

I'm sure I'm in the minority with this, but I think they're letting Goten and Trunks just be kids right now. I have a feeling they'll be more involved when Uub and Pan are introduced. But right now, it's about their parents.

[Ki Breaker]

Cauliflowa getting SS and later understanding the concepts of SS2 and actually learning to transform into it on her own dosen't bother me at all..
It was the chance of blue being given to her like candy which caused all the uproar on her powerups as far as I have seen...

[TheMikado]

I think they just need to mention in canon that Universe 6 Saiyans are just born extremely strong from the getgo. It's why Cabba was a match for base Vegeta at the U6 tournament. It's just that none of them ever knew about the legend of Super Saiyan.

There is no other logical explanation. U7 Saiyans were born extremely weak for whatever reason.

Yeah we say that until Roshi beats up on a base Cabba/Caulifa... Then all hell will break loose once again.

[Asura]

Cauliflowa getting SS and later understanding the concepts of SS2 and actually learning to transform into it on her own dosen't bother me at all..
It was the chance of blue being given to her like candy which caused all the uproar on her powerups as far as I have seen...

I don't know where everyone got that impression from. I had no reason to suspect she'd ever go blue. Hell, Goku now even brings it up and tells her (and the audience) that nope, ain't gonna happen.

[Ki Breaker]

Cauliflowa getting SS and later understanding the concepts of SS2 and actually learning to transform into it on her own dosen't bother me at all..
It was the chance of blue being given to her like candy which caused all the uproar on her powerups as far as I have seen...

I don't know where everyone got that impression from. I had no reason to suspect she'd ever go blue. Hell, Goku now even brings it up and tells her (and the audience) that nope, ain't gonna happen.

You will be surprised how many people were defending prospect of her going blue as well..

[Asura]

Cauliflowa getting SS and later understanding the concepts of SS2 and actually learning to transform into it on her own dosen't bother me at all..
It was the chance of blue being given to her like candy which caused all the uproar on her powerups as far as I have seen...

I don't know where everyone got that impression from. I had no reason to suspect she'd ever go blue. Hell, Goku now even brings it up and tells her (and the audience) that nope, ain't gonna happen.

You will be surprised how many people were defending prospect of her going blue as well..

Well, I've never seen either of the things you're talking about and boy did I see a lot of Caulifla complaining when she went SSJ2. Although I did see a bit of complaining this past episode just from Caulifla merely mentioning Goku teach her SSB. I should think it would have been rather immediately obvious that wasn't going to happen though so I'm not sure what people were expecting or what they thought was going to happen. I thought her telling Goku to teach her SSB so she can kick his ass with it was hilarious. Others seem to take offense by it. I think she knew Goku wasn't a push-over though and she was just saying all of that stuff because she wanted to fight him. She's arrogant as all hell, but I don't think she's stupid enough to think Goku is a weakling she can easily stomp over.

[Ki Breaker]

I don't know where everyone got that impression from. I had no reason to suspect she'd ever go blue. Hell, Goku now even brings it up and tells her (and the audience) that nope, ain't gonna happen.

You will be surprised how many people were defending prospect of her going blue as well..

Well, I've never seen either of the things you're talking about and boy did I see a lot of Caulifla complaining when she went SSJ2. Although I did see a bit of complaining this past episode just from Caulifla merely mentioning Goku teach her SSB. I should think it would have been rather immediately obvious that wasn't going to happen though so I'm not sure what people were expecting or what they thought was going to happen. I thought her telling Goku to teach her SSB so she can kick his ass with it was hilarious. Others seem to take offense by it. I think she knew Goku wasn't a push-over though and she was just saying all of that stuff because she wanted to fight him. She's arrogant as all hell, but I don't think she's stupid enough to think Goku is a weakling she can easily stomp over.

In this forum, you will find a lot of conversations on this in the earlier part of official discussion thread, specifically after the time the summery of 100 released letting everyone know there is a plot point of her asking for SSB..
Seeing how she went through SS 1 and 2 faster than 18 changed personalities in super, it seemed like a very big possibility to many..
I myself have wrote about it a lot, always including the probability of it actually happening being null..

[Kastex]

there is absolutely no problem with caulifla's power and ascension, and no problems with kale and her power. their power ups ARE kinda BS, but at the same time they makes sense. you are right that the problem is perspective. i explained these things in detail in my caulifla and kale threads but people still refuse to see the obvious picture.

i don't agree with you on kale being a genius the way caulifla is. kale is simply a special case. her powers are legendary, and she kinda did achieve the super saiyan transformation, but transforming isn't something that she can control. she can't control her power either. that's the main difference between caulifla and kale.
their characters could have been introduced and developed in better ways, but as things currently stand it's not so bad.

the material that the arena is made from is perfectly fine. it took the GP a long time to create so much of the material, so perhaps his creation powers are somewhat limited. it MIGHT currently be the strongest material that exists in DBS since he compared it to a material in U7, rather than a stronger material outside of the universes.
i don't think kale transformed is anywhere near as strong as SSG goku was when he battled beerus. when goku battled beerus using SS3, beerus struck him just hard enough to knock him unconscious (or just about as hard). when goku ascended to SSG, beerus must have been hitting him even harder, but kale couldn't even damage an SS2 goku. she's not all that powerful.

[Asura]

You will be surprised how many people were defending prospect of her going blue as well..

Well, I've never seen either of the things you're talking about and boy did I see a lot of Caulifla complaining when she went SSJ2. Although I did see a bit of complaining this past episode just from Caulifla merely mentioning Goku teach her SSB. I should think it would have been rather immediately obvious that wasn't going to happen though so I'm not sure what people were expecting or what they thought was going to happen. I thought her telling Goku to teach her SSB so she can kick his ass with it was hilarious. Others seem to take offense by it. I think she knew Goku wasn't a push-over though and she was just saying all of that stuff because she wanted to fight him. She's arrogant as all hell, but I don't think she's stupid enough to think Goku is a weakling she can easily stomp over.

In this forum, you will find a lot of conversations on this in the earlier part of official discussion thread, specifically after the time the summery of 100 released letting everyone know there is a plot point of her asking for SSB..
Seeing how she went through SS 1 and 2 faster than 18 changed personalities in super, it seemed like a very big possibility to many..
I myself have wrote about it a lot, always including the probability of it actually happening being null..

It's pretty silly that people would make assumptions from a summary rather than just watching the episode. It does seem like people get outraged over something that turns out to be nothing a lot of times, and people's overreaction towards every little thing is annoying. I did it in the past when this arc first aired, but then I decided to give the arc a chance and was pleasantly surprised.

[Lord Beerus]

I really didn't like how Caulifla attained SSJ2. It was quite botched to be honest. I thought there would be a bit more build up to it, but it just... happened. Thankfully, I'm not invested in the SSJ2 form itself as it doesn't mean shit anymore in-universe, so it doesn't bother me too much, but I still didn't like it. You can handwave this as it is Caulifla is stated to be extremely gifted and talented. And it also helps that it's stated in-universe that Caulifla had greater potential and power by a character who he himself Cabba sought out as viable member for the team of Universe 6 due to how strong Cabba felt he was.

Once Cabba explained to her how to channel the strength required to become a Super Saiyan, she just needed to power up once into the form before she got the knack of it and could power up innately afterward. And Cabba even referred to her as a genius. It can be stated to be the same deal with how she became a SSJ2. She just innately tapped into more strength in a scenario where she need to. It was freak accident. Some that is made even more apparent by the fact Caulflia she couldn't transform into a SSJ2 again after she initially did it. She's basically U6 version of Son Goku. She can pick up abilities and techniques faster than normal if she has the right incentive and teaching. So I wasn't really shock that even managed to attain the ASSJ/USSJ form.

[Avok]

The USSJ isn't that big of a deal, to me that form is just rising one's energy and that's it.
SS2 on the other hand is just too much. Yeah, she doesn't seem that strong (but that's because they need to have Kale being the spotlight, for some dumb reason) but the fact that she got the transformation in the first place is bad enough.

SS2 is not that common when you think about it. It's always been this sort of barrier that it's unlocked under certain conditions. Let's not talk about Gohan, since his power was foreshadowed since his introduction. For Vegeta it was driven by his hurt pride of seeing Goku and Gohan ahead of him, for Goku it was in the afterlife and for Future Trunks it was out of necessity as he was the only fighter in his world.

Back then it didn't feel like something you unlocked after being told some instructions. There was a struggle behind it. If some of these new Saiyans end up getting SS3 then that'll be the straw that breaks the camel's back.