Was Goku originally never supposed to turn golden SSJ again?

[Keysandrew]

When goku fought Freeza in the Resurrection 'F arch, Goku never went golden ssj once. He stated that he didn't think he needed to go super saiyan, eclipsing 4th form Freeza's new found-apparently god-like-power, in his base form. If goku was able to absorb the god ki of SSJG, it would make sense that Goku is at least as strong as that form in his base, right? So, in a sense, god ki was part of his being, I guess. Then, in the universal tournament arch, he goes super saiyan. If Goku could still go super saiyan, why would he bother going SSJB for Freeza, when he could've just as easily gone ssj with god ki and already been more powerful than him? And in that case, what even is SSJB, if not god ki mixed with super saiyan? My point is, if goku could go super saiyan with god ki during the Beerus fight, (possibly unstable), and then masters that power with Whis, and unlocks Blue, then how and why can he still go regular ssj, and why would he want to, if he always had god ki and could just go ssj as easily as he can go ssj. I understand that Ssj blue may be a stamina drainer, but from what I understand that's only from transforming multiple times, and there's no way that Blue is more taxing on the body than the rage-induced super saiyan and further mutations. It just would make more sense if Goku and Vegeta never went super saiyan again, and only went ssjb, only using God Ki from that point forward. It just so confusing; why goku or vegeta would ever turn god ki off in their bases, just so they can go ssj, when they could achieve the same power, with more stability, in their base forms? This is why I believe that Toriyama originally decided that Goku and Vegeta would never go ssj again, but do it it's iconic state and popularity, the traditional ssj forms came back.

[Lord Beerus]

No. I don't think the golden SSJ form were originally planned for a return. I've talked about this in length in the past but I think the golden SSJ forms returning after the events of Battle Of Gods was a last minute decision on Toriyama's part to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as that is his current intention with the current power hierarchy. It caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling because it happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time, Toei already had several episodes scripted, or at the very least planned, based off of Toriyama's previous mentality where Goku and Vegeta in their base forms were incredibly strong and arguably around the same strength as SSJG. So they pretty much had to roll with that concept until the Future Trunks arc, which incidentally threw an almighty spanner in the work with their approach to battle powers based off of the plot outline from Toriyama. So they had no other choice but to quietly retcon Goku and Vegeta's strength to the needs of the narrative.

Toyotaro's role with manga provided him way more flexibility to handle the scenario. But even he didn't handle it gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms, even though originally stated he didn't think Goku would need to transform into SSJ2/3 anymore after the events of BOG. But bringing back SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 was in the plot outline, so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

[Bullza]

Well Toriyama did do a interview after Battle of Gods but before he'd thought up Resurrection F probably where he said Goku could get stronger by raising his normal and Super Saiyan states.

So he could still turn into the Golden Super Saiyan following Battle of Gods. Not sure what was intended with Resurrection F but then seeing as it came back so soon after that movie then it's possible that it was never really intended to go anywhere.

[Lionel]

So much confusion may have been avoided if they had stuck to that original plan and limited Goku to just Base and SSJB. They could still find a workaround for Beerus retaining his superiority by writing his character as wishing to commit himself to training. Incredible gains would be made, perhaps through him tapping into some wellspring of god potential. By the time the Champa arc has begun, he's already widened the gap so much that Goku and Vegeta now amount to less than 10% of his power. Kaioken could still be reincorporated while keeping Goku weaker than Beerus.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Well Toriyama did do a interview after Battle of Gods but before he'd thought up Resurrection F probably where he said Goku could get stronger by raising his normal and Super Saiyan states.

So he could still turn into the Golden Super Saiyan following Battle of Gods. Not sure what was intended with Resurrection F but then seeing as it came back so soon after that movie then it's possible that it was never really intended to go anywhere.

I am under this impression as well, it also makes Goku reverting back to SS in BoG not odd if Goku truly couldn't go original SS's again. Nothing in the movie really implied they couldn't as well, I think a lot of people just built it up in their heads that SSGSS replaced SS permanently.

[LowRyder2005]

There's Goku turning Super Saiyan at the end of BOG against the claim. A specific movie pamphlet at the time of ROF does, however, corroborate the same claim partly. Parroting Goku's tidbit of exposition it states that "when a Saiyan with a power of a Super Saiyan God turns Super Saiyan, they turn Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". Clearly, if we hypothesize the act of "going Super Saiyan" didn't make the Saiyan "become (simple) Super Saiyan" anymore, the consequence ends up being just that: the transformation becoming unavailable.

Hence, when you piece together what happens in ROF, Toriyama's post-BOG interviews, Goku's explanation of what "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" entails and the pamphlet, it does seem like there's a decent chance that Super Saiyan Blue could have been intended - script-wise - to be an evolution of their regular Super Saiyan forms that completely superseded those very forms.

Alternatively, we can theorize Goku and Vegeta could turn God's power on and off, meaning that as long as they were not "godly" the regular Super Saiyan was again available; since the latter option goes strictly speaking unmentioned, I feel like it was indeed supposed to be a "base or SSB" type of deal in 2015. Super, obviously, opted to change many things and all of which is stated above may or may not apply to the show.

[OLKv3]

RoF made it appear as if SSB replaced SS. But then the Champa arc showed it as it's own separate form, and that confused the fandom.

[TheOne]

RoF made it appear as if SSB replaced SS. But then the Champa arc showed it as it's own separate form, and that confused the fandom.

I never got that vibe that it replaced SSB. I just assumed they used Blue because it's a stronger transformation.

Why would they have all of a sudden stopped being able to go SSJ?

[GodKaio-Ken]

RoF made it appear as if SSB replaced SS. But then the Champa arc showed it as it's own separate form, and that confused the fandom.

I never got that vibe that it replaced SSB. I just assumed they used Blue because it's a stronger transformation.

Why would they have all of a sudden stopped being able to go SSJ?

Because a lot of people think God Ki + SSJ = SSB. They also assume he can use/has God Ki in base. So in theory if he went SSJ he would just go Blue to them.

Personally I think both of those things are incorrect.

[OLKv3]

RoF made it appear as if SSB replaced SS. But then the Champa arc showed it as it's own separate form, and that confused the fandom.

I never got that vibe that it replaced SSB. I just assumed they used Blue because it's a stronger transformation.

Why would they have all of a sudden stopped being able to go SSJ?

Because a lot of people think God Ki + SSJ = SSB. They also assume he can use/has God Ki in base. So in theory if he went SSJ he would just go Blue to them.

Personally I think both of those things are incorrect.

That's literally how they explained SSB though. "A saiyan with the power of a SSG goes SS"

[GodKaio-Ken]

I never got that vibe that it replaced SSB. I just assumed they used Blue because it's a stronger transformation.

Why would they have all of a sudden stopped being able to go SSJ?

Because a lot of people think God Ki + SSJ = SSB. They also assume he can use/has God Ki in base. So in theory if he went SSJ he would just go Blue to them.

Personally I think both of those things are incorrect.

That's literally how they explained SSB though. "A saiyan with the power of a SSG goes SS"

Yeah but (in the movie anyway cant recall the episode) he seems unsure how to describe it. I feel like its an equivalent, not an exact thing.

[Duo]

I went into 'F' assuming there would be zero Saiyan transformations at all whatsoever.

I definitely had the wrong idea about where things were going.

[Whatever]

When facing 4th form Freeza and Freeza asked him why does he not turn gold Goku said:'I don't need to''
That clearly implies that he could turn super saiyan if he wanted but did not need it against 4th form freeza and he needed to use something stronger against Golden Freeza.
There is also BOG where he turns super saiyan right after Super saiyan God expires.

[LowRyder2005]

When facing 4th form Freeza and Freeza asked him why does he not turn gold Goku said:'I don't need to''
That clearly implies that he could turn super saiyan if he wanted but did not need it against 4th form freeza and he needed to use something stronger against Golden Freeza.
There is also BOG where he turns super saiyan right after Super saiyan God expires.

While possible, it could've also been a way to reinstate in broader terms that he just didn't need to transform yet; not necessarily a case of tacit consent. After all, no character in the film and/or the older related material differentiated between Super Saiyan and Blue that much.
Well, more concretely, they do not differentiate between them at all: according to the pamphlet for ROF, whenever the godly-empowered Goku transformed he would have turned (Super Saiyan God) Super Saiyan, and Blue isn't really treated as something different than Super Saiyan in the film.

[Saturnine]

Ultra-powerful Base and SSjB were supposed to be the only states of Goku and Vegeta as of RoF and afterwards. But for some reason, this got retconned. Since it came from Toriyama himself. I can only wonder why. Probably because "Saiyan Beyond God" feels more like an end point than a stepping stone, and Goku and Vegeta could utterly demolish any threat in this state without even trying, which would make any drama and tension unbelievable. I don't think this had much to do specifically with keeping them above Beerus, I think other considerations were more important, such as keeping the regular forms for merchandise/nostalgia reasons, and was probably driven equally by storytelling and financial incentives.

[Whatever]

When facing 4th form Freeza and Freeza asked him why does he not turn gold Goku said:'I don't need to''
That clearly implies that he could turn super saiyan if he wanted but did not need it against 4th form freeza and he needed to use something stronger against Golden Freeza.
There is also BOG where he turns super saiyan right after Super saiyan God expires.

While possible, it could've also been a way to reinstate in broader terms that he just didn't need to transform yet; not necessarily a case of tacit consent. After all, no character in the film and/or the older related material differentiated between Super Saiyan and Blue that much.
Well, more concretely, they do not differentiate between them at all: according to the pamphlet for ROF, whenever the godly-empowered Goku transformed he would have turned (Super Saiyan God) Super Saiyan, and Blue isn't really treated as something different than Super Saiyan in the film.

Well its not like they need to differentiate that much,after all Super saiyan is needed for Super saiyan Blue,super saiyan Blue is closer(in meaning not power or relation) to the other super saiyan forms Vegeta and Trunks showed to the cell saga.
In the sense that they are more 'grades' of normal super saiyan,sure you can use the normal super saiyan but then they branch to different paths to achieve said transformation.
If its not Rof then Bog seals it because 'godly empowered' Goku did transform to a super saiyan but he did not turn blue when he did so.
There is no reason for him lose the ability to turn normal super saiyan between Bog and Rof.

[LowRyder2005]

When facing 4th form Freeza and Freeza asked him why does he not turn gold Goku said:'I don't need to''
That clearly implies that he could turn super saiyan if he wanted but did not need it against 4th form freeza and he needed to use something stronger against Golden Freeza.
There is also BOG where he turns super saiyan right after Super saiyan God expires.

While possible, it could've also been a way to reinstate in broader terms that he just didn't need to transform yet; not necessarily a case of tacit consent. After all, no character in the film and/or the older related material differentiated between Super Saiyan and Blue that much.
Well, more concretely, they do not differentiate between them at all: according to the pamphlet for ROF, whenever the godly-empowered Goku transformed he would have turned (Super Saiyan God) Super Saiyan, and Blue isn't really treated as something different than Super Saiyan in the film.

Well its not like they need to differentiate that much,after all Super saiyan is needed for Super saiyan Blue,super saiyan Blue is closer(in meaning not power or relation) to the other super saiyan forms Vegeta and Trunks showed to the cell saga.
In the sense that they are more 'grades' of normal super saiyan,sure you can use the normal super saiyan but then they branch to different paths to achieve said transformation.
If its not Rof then Bog seals it because 'godly empowered' Goku did transform to a super saiyan but he did not turn blue when he did so.
There is no reason for him lose the ability to turn normal super saiyan between Bog and Rof.

At the very least not an expressly stated reason, certainly. And of paper it very obviously appears counter-intuitive. However, from what we've seen in the movie the original intention might've also been for his Super Saiyan to evolve into Blue and nothing more, not unlike Goku's Super Saiyan became a "mastered" Super Saiyan with additional perks back in the day.

Other than that it's a matter of whether you want to take the article's word for it or not: the wording does imply that Super Saiyan Blue was the end result of turning Super Saiyan for Goku, "whenever Goku wielded the power of a Super Saiyan God". For better or worse, the phrasing does imply he was supposed to either lose the old form or - posit Goku could indeed turn regular Super Saiyan and not just Blue - that Goku could be a "godly-powered" one second and "not-godly-powered" the other.

More or less, two-base theories and the existence of the regular Super Saiyan, in the context of the ROF movie, are mutually exclusive. There's not enough evidence to disprove one or the other, but it's pretty interesting, in hindsight.

[IKevinX]

I think he wasn't supposed to aswell.
From what I remember the three new DBZ movies were supposed to be a trilogy of sorts. Each with a new transformation that would make Goku reach true Godhood.
But then Dragon Ball Super was announced and there was a need to decrease that abnormous quick growth otherwise it would've been hard to create tension throught the series without making Beerus 100x stronger for no reason or making the threats derive from extremely poor history ideas.

Albeit with some strong inconsistencies I think Toriyama did the right call, in the long run. Though I wish he would elaborate more on Goku's current SSJ1 level. <_< But that is another topic

[lord turbo]

While possible, it could've also been a way to reinstate in broader terms that he just didn't need to transform yet; not necessarily a case of tacit consent. After all, no character in the film and/or the older related material differentiated between Super Saiyan and Blue that much.
Well, more concretely, they do not differentiate between them at all: according to the pamphlet for ROF, whenever the godly-empowered Goku transformed he would have turned (Super Saiyan God) Super Saiyan, and Blue isn't really treated as something different than Super Saiyan in the film.

Well its not like they need to differentiate that much,after all Super saiyan is needed for Super saiyan Blue,super saiyan Blue is closer(in meaning not power or relation) to the other super saiyan forms Vegeta and Trunks showed to the cell saga.
In the sense that they are more 'grades' of normal super saiyan,sure you can use the normal super saiyan but then they branch to different paths to achieve said transformation.
If its not Rof then Bog seals it because 'godly empowered' Goku did transform to a super saiyan but he did not turn blue when he did so.
There is no reason for him lose the ability to turn normal super saiyan between Bog and Rof.

At the very least not an expressly stated reason, certainly. And of paper it very obviously appears counter-intuitive. However, from what we've seen in the movie the original intention might've also been for his Super Saiyan to evolve into Blue and nothing more, not unlike Goku's Super Saiyan became a "mastered" Super Saiyan with additional perks back in the day.

Other than that it's a matter of whether you want to take the article's word for it or not: the wording does imply that Super Saiyan Blue was the end result of turning Super Saiyan for Goku, "whenever Goku wielded the power of a Super Saiyan God". For better or worse, the phrasing does imply he was supposed to either lose the old form or - posit Goku could indeed turn regular Super Saiyan and not just Blue - that Goku could be a "godly-powered" one second and "not-godly-powered" the other.

More or less, two-base theories and the existence of the regular Super Saiyan, in the context of the ROF movie, are mutually exclusive. There's not enough evidence to disprove one or the other, but it's pretty interesting, in hindsight.

This, the way its explained in the series is very straight forward and not broad. A Saiyan that has absorbed SSJG into their being that becomes SSJ causes their SSJ to look blue. I guess you could saw in BoGs the effects of SSJG hadn't washed over SSJ yet to make it blue (And it being before they thought of SSJB for RoF film). When we get to RoF and all official supplement for it such a the manga promotion for it shows Goku attacking Whis in base form with the silhouette of SSJG beside him illustrating he's using that power in his base form. Hell, if I'm not mistaken don't one of the supplement material for RoF describes SSJB being the SSJ form itself that mutated into the blue state. In other words, SSJB and SSJ are not separate things, SSJB and SSJ are the exact same thing, SSJ itself evolved into SSJB.

This is flat out said and shown in the film itslef and all official supplement material concerning it. This is speculation or head-canon or broad interpretation. As far as RoF film was concerned SSJB replaced SSJ entirely because SSJG infused in Goku's body made SSJ form itself evolved (think Pokemon) into SSJB. This was cool for a while until U6/Champa saga in Super, actually, we got subtle/minor changes during the RoF in Super that we didn't get in RoF film itself. The characters specifically mention being unable to sense Goku ki when he becomes SSJB when no such mention is giving in BoGs or RoF films beforehand. DBS manga changed things significantly by having Goku never once absorb SSJG into his being and instead treating it as a separate form he can access at will some time later fully contradicting the information supplied about SSJB from the RoF movie, guides, and all other official supplement material.

These were signs we didn't really notice and pay much attention until U6/Champa arc, hell, even in the manga people were unsure at first due to the black and white nature if Goku was SSJ or SSJB, we debated it, even pointed out SSJB is shaded while SSJ is not in the manga, and then we get that U6/Champa saga magazine scan of Goku and Vegeta in SSJ, the next chapter confirms its indeed SSJ so everyone is pretty much confused at this point. They explicitly said SSJB is the evolved state of SSJ itself, they are not suppose to be two different separate forms, but one in the same.

This remains me of Ultimate Gohan and SSJ, in the manga, there are even visual clues that Ultimate is replacing SSJ and Elder Kaioshin mentions Gohan to do that SSJ/turn SSJ to activate it so from all of that we came to the conclusion that Ultimate replaced SSJ and nothing contradicted this notion until GT, fans just passed off as GT having no involvement from Toriyama so everyone kept up with Ultimate replacing SSJ. Years later BoGs film poster has SSJ Gohan, then clips/media of SSJ Gohan from the film itself, fans in Japan complain they are making the same mistake as GT did, Gohan's not suppose to be SSJ anymore, he's only suppose to be Ultimate with the script writer of the film Yusuke apologizing and saying they will correct these mistakes and Gohan won't be SSJ in the film, then he is in the film with zero explanations, just like SSJ post RoF.

At this point its like whatever, these guys are going to do what they want to do whether it makes sense or not and keep on trucking.