Is the actual base form of Goku stronger than the ritual SSGod?

[Potara_Vegetto]

What you think?

I think he is

[Grimlock]

Please provide some more elaboration into your post.

Which base Goku? From Universe Survival saga? If so, of course he is. As time/adventures/sagas come and go, the characters just keep getting stronger and stronger. That said, it's obvious that the Goku from these days is stronger than Movie 14's Goku.

But if you're comparing both from the same period, then no. Super Saiyan God would be stronger unless Goku is using Saiyan beyond God state, which puts him in the same level as if he were indeed using Super Saiyan God.

[Potara_Vegetto]

Please provide some more elaboration into your post.

Which base Goku? From Universe Survival saga? If so, of course he is. As time/adventures/sagas come and go, the characters just keep getting stronger and stronger. That said, it's obvious that the Goku from these days is stronger than Movie 14's Goku.

But if you're comparing both from the same period, then no. Super Saiyan God would be stronger unless Goku is using Saiyan beyond God state, which puts him in the same level as if he were indeed using Super Saiyan God.

I said "than the ritual SSGod" why I would compare the base form Goku before the ritual?

[Potara_Vegetto]

Please provide some more elaboration into your post.

Which base Goku? From Universe Survival saga? If so, of course he is. As time/adventures/sagas come and go, the characters just keep getting stronger and stronger. That said, it's obvious that the Goku from these days is stronger than Movie 14's Goku.

But if you're comparing both from the same period, then no. Super Saiyan God would be stronger unless Goku is using Saiyan beyond God state, which puts him in the same level as if he were indeed using Super Saiyan God.

The Saiyan Beyond God was a stage used on the movie and DBH, this form never existed on the anime.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Please provide some more elaboration into your post.

Which base Goku? From Universe Survival saga? If so, of course he is. As time/adventures/sagas come and go, the characters just keep getting stronger and stronger. That said, it's obvious that the Goku from these days is stronger than Movie 14's Goku.

But if you're comparing both from the same period, then no. Super Saiyan God would be stronger unless Goku is using Saiyan beyond God state, which puts him in the same level as if he were indeed using Super Saiyan God.

The Saiyan Beyond God was a stage used on the movie and DBH, this form never existed on the anime.

Nothing in the movie in the slightest referred to or implied this "Saiyan Beyond God" nonsense at all.

[Grimlock]

why I would compare the base form Goku before the ritual?

Because there are a lot of base Goku after the ritual? There's Movie 15's base Goku, there's Universe 6 saga base Goku, there's Future Trunks saga base Goku and there's Universe Survival saga base Goku, in case you don't know. You need to provide more elaboration and specify which base Goku you're comparing with Super Saiyan God Goku (and I have to assume it's Movie 14's Super Saiyan God Goku, because once again, you didn't provide any elaboration about this as well), dude.

[fadeddreams5]

This Saiyan Beyond God nonsense has long been steathily retconned. It was only ever a thing in the F arc and slightly after BoG. It's clear Base Goku is not as strong as a SSJG. That would imply almost every other character is as strong as such too...

[BlueBasilisk]

This Saiyan Beyond God nonsense has long been steathily retconned. It was only ever a thing in the F arc and slightly after BoG. It's clear Base Goku is not as strong as a SSJG. That would imply almost every other character is as strong as such too...

Goku was trading slipping hands with Frieza as recently as 94 and 95 and he's even stronger than he was in RoF.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Basically, Base Goku was as strong as SSGod for a little bit.

In my opinion that was during RoF Frieza fight, Copy-Vegeta fight, and Monaka-Beerus fight.

Since the Future Trunks arc, Goku's Base has been changed back to his DBZ days.


There are some instances that I have noticed that happen where he could be using SBG, though this is only my own interpretation of the TV show. Believe what you please:

This Saiyan Beyond God nonsense has long been steathily retconned. It was only ever a thing in the F arc and slightly after BoG. It's clear Base Goku is not as strong as a SSJG. That would imply almost every other character is as strong as such too...

Goku was trading slipping hands with Frieza as recently as 94 and 95 and he's even stronger than he was in RoF.

Goku fights Krillin in Base, then goes to SS1, then powers down to Base to go back up to SSB. Yeah, and he is able to track Frieza in Base form in Ep. 95 before he went SSB.

[Marlowe89]

Shouldn't this go in the strength discussion thread?

To answer your question, Saiyan Beyond God aside?
Absolutely not. He struggled against characters in the tournament that Majin Buu and Android 18 had no problem with and was also implied not to have been holding back that much against a pre-Ultimate SS Gohan. Most damning of all, Roh specifically mentioned he only had the "Power of the Gods" (Kami no Chikara) upon transforming into Blue -- Beerus previously mentioned that exact term in BoG to describe Super Saiyan God's power after Goku became strong enough to cancel out his blows in space.

I suppose there will always be debates concerning how strong base Goku actually should be, but there's no way in hell the writers currently have him on par with SSG.

[dragon boss z]

No, I think his base form at full power is maybe around Buuhan/base Vegito level.

[ChiefWamsutta]

No, I think his base form at full power is maybe around Buuhan/base Vegito level.

If what you're saying is true then how is it possible that SS1 Goku fought SS1 Gohan? That means SS1 Gohan would be around 50x greater than Base Vegito, or SS1 Vegito level.

The show stated that only after their match in the crop field, did Gohan achieve back to Super Buu level of power as Ultimate Gohan.

[emperior]

There's no way Goku's base is SSG-level nowadays. He's stronger than he was in Buu arc, but not that stronger. In my list, I currently have Goku's base twice as strong as he was at the beginning of Super (100 milion)

[dragon boss z]

No, I think his base form at full power is maybe around Buuhan/base Vegito level.

If what you're saying is true then how is it possible that SS1 Goku fought SS1 Gohan? That means SS1 Gohan would be around 50x greater than Base Vegito, or SS1 Vegito level.

The show stated that only after their match in the crop field, did Gohan achieve back to Super Buu level of power as Ultimate Gohan.

Goku's ssj doesn't give him a 50x boost and that fight was basically filler.
They learned how to stop their ki from leaking out which is what I think makes their base stronger. So I think it goes possibly like this.

Base<<<Base(no leakage)<ssj(50x base)<<<SSB(50x base(no leakage)).

[ChiefWamsutta]

No, I think his base form at full power is maybe around Buuhan/base Vegito level.

If what you're saying is true then how is it possible that SS1 Goku fought SS1 Gohan? That means SS1 Gohan would be around 50x greater than Base Vegito, or SS1 Vegito level.

The show stated that only after their match in the crop field, did Gohan achieve back to Super Buu level of power as Ultimate Gohan.

Goku's ssj doesn't give him a 50x boost and that fight was basically filler.
They learned how to stop their ki from leaking out which is what I think makes their base stronger. So I think it goes possibly like this.

Base<<<Base(no leakage)<ssj(50x base)<<<SSB(50x base(no leakage)).

To be fair, nothing in Super is filler. That only really made sense in the context of the DBZ anime. Every chapter in the DBSuper manga and every episode in the DBSuper anime are equally canon. Also, I'm gonna have to disagree because SS1 has always been a 50x boost of his Base. SS1 Goku and SS1 Gohan were fighting very evenly and were letting out a lot of power (referenced by their not noticing the field was destroyed) so they could not have been holding back in that fight.

The whole no-leakage-of-ki thing has been difficult to decipher because to become a SSBlue you have to just be "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who transforms into a Super Saiyan." I have been unsure how it all relates other than it powers them up. It is not really known if keeping their ki inside results in SSBlue. It's a different form entirely.

[dragon boss z]

To be fair, nothing in Super is filler. That only really made sense in the context of the DBZ anime. Every chapter in the DBSuper manga and every episode in the DBSuper anime are equally canon.

Anything that isn't in the manga means it was made up by Toei meaning the power scaling is just coming from one random super writer. It's canon to the show, but the power doesn't always make sense. I mean Goku even went ssj against Krillin to stop himself from being pushed back.

Also, I'm gonna have to disagree because SS1 has always been a 50x boost of his Base.

I explained what I meant here. It is 50x base, but not 50x their base without ki leakage. Weather you think the stoppage of ki being leaked lead to Blue (it was heavily implied it was since blue energy came out right after Whis told them to do that), the technique clearly raises their power level since Whis directly said it would.

So ssj would be a 50x multiplier of base, while holding all of their ki in imo would multiplier their power 10-30x. So ssj wouldn't be a 50x multiplier of their mastered base, unless you believe they could do the same thing with ssj, but imo doing that leads to ssb.

SS1 Goku and SS1 Gohan were fighting very evenly and were letting out a lot of power (referenced by their not noticing the field was destroyed) so they could not have been holding back in that fight.

It looked the same way in ssj Vegeta vs Cabba, but then all of a sudden Vegeta tanked Cabba's full force punch in the face.

The whole no-leakage-of-ki thing has been difficult to decipher because to become a SSBlue you have to just be "A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God who transforms into a Super Saiyan." I have been unsure how it all relates other than it powers them up. It is not really known if keeping their ki inside results in SSBlue. It's a different form entirely.

We don't know for sure, but SSB ki leaking out of them seconds after Whis told them to stop leaking their ki seems to be pretty good evidence for the theory.