Legitimate arguments for why the original manga has overall superior story telling?

[MR.Mark]

Since Super gets shit on a lot I figured this is a good topic for some legitimate discussion beyond bitching about fan service, training methods, or power scaling.

So let's have it, I want to read some well thought out opinions.

Is Super really THAT much weaker in story telling to Toriyama's original manga?

[TheMikado]

This is a topic I've spoken about extensively.

Toriyama's manga ran from 1984-1995.

For my example I will use one of what many consider to be one of the weaker characters of the franchise.

Chichi starts out as the daughter of the Ox King, she is a lovable and shy girl. She's also pretty strong. Her interactions with Goku also led to Goku "promising" to marry her.
She disappears for awhile and reappears in the 23rd Martial Arts Tournament, having not forgotten Goku and his "promise". They have a child together who she nurtures and wishes for him to become a scholar. She opposes martial arts for her first born son. Goku dies, her son is kidnapped by her husband's arc rival and she takes it all in typical chichi fashion although as a feisty adult woman. She waits patiently through the Namek saga, and is supportive of her son and husband during the Cell saga. Where Goku survives the heart virus but ultimately dies in the fight against Cell. She raises their second son Goten in the same spirit as his late father, embracing his natural propensities. Toriyama had not forgotten she was a powerful and competent martial artist and she trains her second son as such. She's older, wiser and has progressed quite a bit in the decades that have rolled by. However she never ceases to be Chichi. He outlooks and viewpoints just like any natural human being have evolved over the years. She expresses genuine concern for the type of woman Gohan date's while seeing some of herself in Videl. Chichi, arguably one of the weakest and most loathed characters is a fully formed character who we watch grow through the years. We don't ask too many questions about what she was doing before her introduction because she natural backstory made sense. The Princess of Fire Mountain and daughter of the Ox king. We had no reason to question why she was so strong or how she got that way because her natural backstory dictated as much. Further she grew in both insight and outlook and proved through training Goten that she "still has it". She ends Z and the original manga enjoying peaceful years with her family and friends, and even accepts her husband running off as something he just does but somehow you can tell she's not too worried about it because Goku is always back. It feels like a woman who deeply understands and knows her husband and accepts him and her life for what it is while experiencing personal growth.

And this is just a supporting character...

Kale and Caulifa on the other hand.. like how/why did Caulifa become a gang boss? Why is Kale so messed up in the head? Its not even the same realm of fleshed out characterization. Yes Chichi was over the course of the years, but her presentation wasn't questionable. It was naturally understood who and what and why she was who she was. She had enough surrounding backstory to where her very existence wasn't even questioned.

This is however just 1 example and I purposely choose one of his weaker story elements to qualify the difference in fleshing out concepts vs Super.

[MR.Mark]

Why did Chichi's dad start out as a barbarian?

Didn't Chichi start off as a princess?

Did she have a kingdom and people at some point?

What is Freeza's race and why is he so evil?

Where did Buu come from?

[Simere]

We don't ask too many questions about what she was doing before her introduction because she natural backstory made sense. The Princess of Fire Mountain and daughter of the Ox king. We had no reason to question why she was so strong or how she got that way because her natural backstory dictated as much.

And this is just a supporting character...

Kale and Caulifa on the other hand.. like how/why did Caulifa become a gang boss?

Why is it to be accepted verbatim that Chi-Chi is a princess but Caulifla running with some punks is something that needs to be questioned?

[MR.Mark]

Why does Lunch have a magical split personality? Is she a witch? Why in story did she just disappear without a trace?

Why don't Bulma's parents seem to age? (worse than Goten and Trunks)

What exactly is Tenshinhan? Will it ever be explained in manga/anime?

For that matter, what the hell is Chouzu and why doesn't he age?

Why doesn't Olong age?

What was Yamcha's life before being a desert bandit? Was he an orphan?

What race is Puar and what connection is he/she to Olong and shape shifting school?

[TheMikado]

We don't ask too many questions about what she was doing before her introduction because she natural backstory made sense. The Princess of Fire Mountain and daughter of the Ox king. We had no reason to question why she was so strong or how she got that way because her natural backstory dictated as much.

And this is just a supporting character...

Kale and Caulifa on the other hand.. like how/why did Caulifa become a gang boss?

Why is it to be accepted verboten that Chi-Chi is a princess but Caulifla running with some punks is something that needs to be questioned?

Because she is conceptualized as a fully formed character. She's a Princess of fire mountain, daughter of the Ox king, Super strong, and runs around in a suit of armor. Every aspect denotes and creates a whole character.

In Caulifas case, she is a fighting genius, sister to the guy who trained the elite Saiyans, yet somehow became leader of a gang, and looks like she's 15. The characters concepts are independent of another except maybe her blood relationship and genius ability. The character feels undercooked with little on why she is who she is.

[LowRyder2005]

Even putting aside the more overaching issues that entail any comparison between the original manga and Super, I can't help but feel pressed to ask: is the underlying implication that these "issues" detract from the story as much as (anime) Super's? I mean... okay.

[TheMikado]

Why does Lunch have a magical split personality? Is she a witch? Why in story did she just disappear without a trace?

Why don't Bulma's parents seem to age? (worse than Goten and Trunks)

What exactly is Tenshinhan? Will it ever be explained in manga/anime?

For that matter, what the hell is Chouzu and why doesn't he age?

Why doesn't Olong age?

What was Yamcha's life before being a desert bandit? Was he an orphan?

What race is Puar and what connection is he/she to Olong and shape shifting school?

So again, our introduction to these characters are how they are presented to us, it's the same reason we don't question what happened to Caulifas brothers leg. We make the natural assumption given his past that it is a war wound. In the cases of what you mentioned above you're focusing on gag characters who's intentions are gags. But I'll take Yamcha for example, yes it would be nice to know more but the implications are some type of orphaned boy with allusion to it. We don't get a full exposition dump but his back story lines up with a lot, why he doesn't have a girlfriend, why his clothes have a certain appearance. Even his style of fighting all seem to relate uniquely to the intended character.

[MR.Mark]

I never questioned why she was in a gang because I compared her to that of the universe 7 Saiyans, she's arrogant and likes to look tough/hang around other tough Saiyans.

Just like how I never really questioned why the Saiyans from universe 7 are just overall assholes. Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz are the way they are just cause, we certainly can't blame it on Freeza. (even though Funi tried to)

[TheMikado]

I never questioned why she was in a gang because I compared her to that of the universe 7 Saiyans, she's arrogant and likes to look tough/hang around other tough Saiyans.

Just like how I never really questioned why the Saiyans from universe 7 are just overall assholes. Vegeta, Nappa, and Raditz are the way they are just cause, we certainly can't blame it on Freeza. (even though Funi tried to)

The problem is the context, she is clearly different from he majority of Saiyans who act as the police force in their universe. He own brother is an esteemed war hero: so why is she different? We accept the Saiyans as evil in Goku's universe because that's established that they are. Caulifa bucks the trend not only in her own universe but possibly in her own family blood line: we don't even know that. It's not a big deal but I'm explaining the difference of backstory and exposition vs previous.

[MR.Mark]

The universe 7 Saiyans didn't seem like the smartest bunch so it makes sense for the postion most of them had. U6 Saiyans act a lot more like humans, so it would make sense that not EVERY single one on there planet was a member of a police force. Caulifa may not be evil, but she is a punk, not police material.

[emperior]

I would say Super is just on par with Z, which had its few shares of inconsistencies.
But the manga is more coherent product which tried to make sense out of most of the questionable things that happened, and at least recognized some of its flaws in-universe with at least a line/joke - like Krillin not having a nose or the Saiyan kids going SSJ so easily.

I also feel like Super can't flesh out the characters and the story like the manga did.
Don't get me wrong: I really like Super, but I must admit the original manga is better, probably because it was written, storyboarded and drawn all by Akira Toriyama, which, being the author, could obviously do whatever he wanted with his characters and stories. It's clear that a story written by just one person will be more consistent by one written by different writers.

[TheMikado]

The universe 7 Saiyans didn't seem like the smartest bunch so it makes sense for the postion most of them had. U6 Saiyans act a lot more like humans, so it would make sense that not EVERY single one on there planet was a member of a police force. Caulifa may not be evil, but she is a punk, not police material.

I'm not saying it's not possible all I saying is the world and character were not established for it to be a default position to take without context. For example, Frieza was a space pirate. So when they introduce King Cold, Cooler, or Chilled. There was a possible natural assumption that they were space pirates. Or at least bad guys.

I'm not ever saying this is a big deal, it's a tiny example but what I am saying is that scenarios like this add up. Lack of explanations for prolonged periods of time can wear on some. Not understanding what the heck SS Rage is or from for example.

Again these items by themselves are not deal breakers. It's the large number of them, the lack of attention to detail that hurts the story. It's death by 1000 cuts. The manga redeemed those issues with having tons of exposition and backstory dumps. It had holes but it wasn't full of them.

[MR.Mark]

We're bringing movie character's into this?

Again what is Freeza's race? why did it only consist of him and his father? What happened to the rest of them? Are they A-sexual?

The complaints against Caulifa seem pretty unfair. Also why did Chichi run around in that armor? Was her dad training her?

[TheMikado]

We're bringing movie character's into this?

Again what is Freeza's race? why did it only consist of him and his father? What happened to the rest of them? Are they A-sexual?

The complaints against Caulifa seem pretty unfair. Also why did Chichi run around in that armor? Was her dad training her?

No idea but those answers have no bearing on the characters motivations or plot. You're using false equivalence to attempt to bring the previous story telling down to Supers level when we were introduced to Frieza and his reign of exploits long before even meeting the character. It was known throughout the galaxy how terrifying and strong Frieza was. Basically the world and back story of the universe had a history long before we are even introduced to that character acting in the present. You can ask a dozen questions all day long and always find holes but he fact is can get 100x more answers characters and lore and forms of the manga then you will on Super.

You have to dig deep more than just a surface glance to tear apart the Dragonball manga.

[OhHiRenan]

Super's writing is much weaker, yes. While the original manga has problems, Toriyama does an excellent job at giving the illusion that he'd been planning things all along by tying the narrative into old plot points he'd brought up. It also feels like just about every arc in the manga is rich with its own themes. In the Saiyan and Namek arcs, we see both Goku and Piccolo learn about their true heritages in the former and then accept them in the latter. It's a nice thematic synergy that Super lacks at the moment.

Even the Majin Boo arc which is balls to the wall most of the time has a nice theme of responsibility running through it. Goku and Vegeta are responsible for waking Boo, Vegeta tries to take responsibility but fails, Goku decides that the living need to take responsibility but they fail, and then Goku ends up needing to take responsibility for waking Boo which prompts him and Vegeta to tag team him. Was this all planned out? Obviously not, but it works because Toriyama's good at this kind of writing.

[MR.Mark]

How are you asking why Caulifa is a punk any different to the questions I'm asking? WHY is Freeza evil, HOW did he rise to that position to be feared in the universe? By just being strong and that's it?

Why is Kale messed up in the head? I dunno, she kinda reminds me of a Saiyan version of Lunch.

I'm not tearing apart the manga, I'm just defending Super if anything.

[MR.Mark]

, but it works because Toriyama's good at this kind of writing.

Minus some glaring things like the Genki dama or SSJ3 vs Fat Buu etc.

[OhHiRenan]

, but it works because Toriyama's good at this kind of writing.

Minus some glaring things like the Genki dama or SSJ3 vs Fat Buu etc.

To each they're own, but I'm a fan.

SSJ3 Goku is probably the most glaring retcon in the series, but it shines such an interesting, new light on Goku and Vegeta's fight that I can't help but love it. It also leads to Vegeta calling him out and then his speech where he praises Goku, which is honestly one of my favorite moments in the whole series.

I feel like a discussion on the Genki Dama would necessitate its own topic

[MR.Mark]

I feel like a discussion on the Genki Dama would necessitate its own topic

Please Dende no...

Also opinion noted, the Buu arc is fun no doubt but there is a lot of faulty logic abound.