Young SSJ2 Gohan: What's going on here?

[Li'l Lemmy]

Well, this feels kind of stupid, and it's going to look kind of stupid when I explain it. But I'd like to know if I'm alone in this craziness or not, so I've decided to bring it up.

Anime-specific: Everybody remembers the Cell Games, right? Of course we do. And when we first see Gohan in SSJ2, with all that electricity cascading over his body and through his hair, I think it's generally undeniable that that hair appears quite large.

Come to think of it . . . when I saw that version of Gohan for the first time, I remember the logical part of me complaining that I didn't think Gohan's SSJ hair could "realistically" jump to that height in SSJ2. I really thought it was an awesome look, though, and DBZ isn't known for its realism anyway, so I ended up convincing myself that it grew out a little while in the SSJ2 form to explain away the illogic (because of course, anal fanboys need an answer for everything).

This isn't really my point, though.

So here we go; more rambling. Gohan grows up obviously, so after Cell we don't really get to see the young SSJ2 Gohan anymore. He isn't animated again outside of Movie 9, where the hair still seems fairly big. (Check out the cover!) Then Dragonball goes on through GT and finally ends with no more television animation at all.

But in situations that still call for it years later (video games, DVD cover art), it feels as though the look has started to change. That particular Gohan appears differently than I remember him from the actual animation; the SSJ2 hair appears to have shrunk down in height quite a bit, almost to the size I once imagined it "should" be; it's no longer such a massive crown of Super Saiyan-ness these days. I wouldn't even mention it, except for the sheer degree to which I think it has shrunk.

Other people see it too, right? Or is it just me?

If it isn't, then I don't get it. What do you guys think? Is this the fault/intention of Toei? Is it just a natural evolution of the art style? They have been at it for some twenty-odd years; we can't necessarily expect that it's going to look exactly the same from beginning to end. It simply struck me as an odd change to make, is all . . . why make it smaller? Why that, of all things?

I'unno. It isn't that I'm distressed over it, of course; it's merely something I noticed. SSJ2 Gohan is just such a pivotal character that I wouldn't have expected such changes. Which version of the art do you prefer? Thoughts?

Additional nonsense: I'm not even going to refer to the manga side of things, because of course I don't have any that feature that particular form. But since we all know Toei wasn't always super-accurate by comparison (and since I know there's a lot of big manga readers here; Duo, I'm looking at you), I suppose it bears asking: Was the hair very big according to Toriyama-sensei, or does it match the current style and Toei is only now catching up?

[Eclipse]

The hair was about the same size in the manga if I do remember. And I do agree, I noticed most of the video games having Gohan's SSJ2 hair size fairly moderate (with the exception of Budokai 3, his hair is enormous).

[Saiyan]

Yeah, the size of Gohan's SSj2 hair in the manga and anime are very similar in size.

I'm just guessing it's Toei's new style of drawing the characters, and how they sort of just change. I mean, in the video games themselves, Gohan's hair is still pretty big, like Eclipse mentioned.

But yeah...probably just Toei.

[Mystic Jack]

I agree in the basis that the jump from regular SSJ to SSJ2 was a big step up hair-wise (not sure if that's even a word) But to me it pretty much stayed the same, I can't really account past Z since I'm not too familiar with GT at the present time. But I can tell ya, I don't think it changed AT all in the manga.

[Duo]

Oh man...he pointed me out and 3 people beat me to it. I feel so lame.

I'll put up some comparison images for all.

[The Tori-bot]

I didn't really notice it, but when I saw my movie 9 fansub, I noticed that it had, ever so slightly, receded in size. And Duo? Post a Budokai 3 in-game screenshot of SSJ2 Gohan. Then we'll go into it some more.

[Li'l Lemmy]

The hair was about the same size in the manga if I do remember. And I do agree, I noticed most of the video games having Gohan's SSJ2 hair size fairly moderate (with the exception of Budokai 3, his hair is enormous).

Oops, my bad. When I mentioned the video games, I didn't mean the actual character models, which seem more-or-less fine; I was actually referring to the character art they stick into the story modes. For example, I think Duo's fourth image is from Budokai 3's Dragon Universe, and when you compare it to the very first manga and anime images it looks as though Gohan's going through some freakish balding process.

Speaking for the manga image, holy freaking Mother of God. (Thanks, Duo!) That hair looks even bigger than the anime! How totally badass is he in that shot, huh?

I didn't really notice it, but when I saw my movie 9 fansub, I noticed that it had, ever so slightly, receded in size. And Duo? Post a Budokai 3 in-game screenshot of SSJ2 Gohan. Then we'll go into it some more.

Eclipse says that it's enormous. I can't remember for some reason. I'll see about getting an image if Duo can't/doesn't.

[Duo]

That artwork for Budokai 3's Dragon Universe always bugged me with that Gohan image...he seriously looks messed up.

And yeah, his hair is pretty big in the Manga, and better detailed as well. Though, it seems to get a tad bit smaller by the time he kills Cell. Maybe he really is balding?! (Haha...)

Anyway...here's the best image I could find for Ssj2 Gohan in-game (Budokai 3)

[Casual Matt]

Come to think of it . . . when I saw that version of Gohan for the first time, I remember the logical part of me complaining that I didn't think Gohan's SSJ hair could "realistically" jump to that height in SSJ2. I really thought it was an awesome look, though, and DBZ isn't known for its realism anyway, so I ended up convincing myself that it grew out a little while in the SSJ2 form to explain away the illogic (because of course, anal fanboys need an answer for everything).

Not that suprising, considering Super Saiyajin 3.

But I suppose you wouldn't have seen that, then.

Also, I don't think his hair is big enough in Sparking! / Budokai Tenkaichi.

[Li'l Lemmy]

That artwork for Budokai 3's Dragon Universe always bugged me with that Gohan image...he seriously looks messed up.

That's the exact image that made me realize just how small the hair had gotten. It looked more than a little out of place, and Gohan just looks weird in that state without the added length.

And yeah, his hair is pretty big in the Manga, and better detailed as well. Though, it seems to get a tad bit smaller by the time he kills Cell. Maybe he really is balding?! (Haha...)

You're always putting the manga one step over the anime, huh? Duo, you're about as partial to the manga as MajinVegetaXV is to the Toei DBZ discs as opposed to FUNimation's, and you both take every opportunity you can to say so. Interesting.

Hmm. You speak for the manga! Let's call you our resident expert.

Not that suprising, considering Super Saiyajin 3.

But I suppose you wouldn't have seen that, then.

Oh, I have seen Super Saiyan 3! I actually saw that before SSJ2. But since all that SSJ3 hair simply vanished whenever the user drops back to normal power, it never bothered me that it grows to such an extreme length in the first place. The power of SSJ3 is so far out there that the hair is kind of like a "fantasy" effect; it's rather fitting, in a way.

With SSJ2, we've actually seen the hair revert to a normal SSJ state, so I always bound it more to that "realism" that doesn't actually exist.

[DaemonCorps]

Yep, Gohan's hair was pretty ginormous before, but I guess the video games wanted to shorten it down a bit. I really don't think that the artists would be hardcore about it and check with the previous renditions of SSJ2 and disagree with its "logic"; I'm gonna say that the sudden "baldness" is due to the different art style.

Just as something to throw out on the table, Goku's and Vegeta's hair didn't look like it grew when they were fighting each other in the early Buu Saga.

Now that I think of it, the end of the Cell Games was one of the many points in the story where Toriyama thought about stopping the series, but was forced to stop. He didn't even take the time to name the new stage (er I guess stages) of SSJ, since he thought that that would be the end of the series. So I guess SSJ2 was just some super-magnificent thing that Toriyama wanted to show to make the series end with a bang and some speculation (about Gohan's transformation, in particular), but was just bonked on the head when he found out he had to keep on crankin' out more chapters afterwards.
EDIT: I guess the same thing goes for Goku's transformation at the end of the Frieza Saga. Remember how different his SSJ hair was then (especially in the anime with the bad animators)?

I guess you could say that Gohan's SSJ2 moment was the equivilant to Goku's SSJ3 transformation (er at least hair-growth-wise).

And as a side thing, I just recently noticed that Gohan's SSJ stage looks a lot like Goku's hair at base level (I guess I never really thought about it 'oh!:).

[Li'l Lemmy]

Now that I think of it, the end of the Cell Games was one of the many points in the story where Toriyama thought about stopping the series, but was forced to stop. He didn't even take the time to name the new stage (er I guess stages) of SSJ, since he thought that that would be the end of the series. So I guess SSJ2 was just some super-magnificent thing that Toriyama wanted to show to make the series end with a bang and some speculation (about Gohan's transformation, in particular), but was just bonked on the head when he found out he had to keep on crankin' out more chapters afterwards.

Hmm. Interesting thought, Daemon.

So now I'm thinking. Look back to the end of the Freeza arc. Toriyama-sensei wanted originally to end it there, didn't he? . . . or so I've heard, anyway. So I'm guessing that Goku becoming a Super Saiyan was supposed to be a one-in-a-million chance, like a random DNA mutation that we would never see the likes of again. The Legend of the Super Saiyan said something like this too, I think . . . and so if Toriyama was again intent on ending the manga after Cell, then what happened to Gohan could have been the reappearance of that absolute one-in-a-million chance that Toriyama wanted to end everything with before. Certainly he hadn't conceived of SSJ3 that early on (we assume), so it wasn't really a SSJ2 so much as it was the Ultimate Saiyan Power. And in a mangaverse that actually ended with the Cell Games the way Toriyama intended, I think Gohan's mixed-blood ability was so freakishly high that I'm not sure even Goku and Vegeta were supposed to reach the same level in the following seven years, if ever.

Though obviously it did continue and they both reached it after all . . .

On-topic: "Ginormous" is a great word for young Gohan's SSJ2 'do. And no, the Bitter Rivals' hair didn't appear to grow at all during their rematch, so maybe that was part of the evolving Toei style, too. I seem to recall that USSJ Vegeta's hair was incredibly big during certain points of his battle with 2nd Form Cell, but it never showed up like that again even in SSJ2.

[Duo]

You're always putting the manga one step over the anime, huh? Duo, you're about as partial to the manga as MajinVegetaXV is to the Toei DBZ discs as opposed to FUNimation's, and you both take every opportunity you can to say so. Interesting.

Hmm. You speak for the manga! Let's call you our resident expert.

I can certainly live with that, so long as folks like Conan don't get overly ornery about it. I've apparently upset people with my Manga-loving ways before.

Though, I don't take every chance to point such out, otherwise I would find a way to post in every thread, which I very much do not.

Returning to the topic...

It does seem that Goku, Vegeta, and 16 year old Gohan all experienced no such "growth" as young Gohan did. Gohan and Vegeta's hair didn't even really change, but Goku's did stick up much straighter and noticeably so.

I was honestly kind've bugged by Vegeta's lack of hair change. It looked so cool when he was "Super Vegeta" that I thougth a similar design should be used.

[Mystic Jack]

I know (this is my personal opinion) that I couldn't really tell (besides the facial tone) when Goku did turn SSJ2 because to me there wasn't that much difference in his form, as for Gohan, I think it was a weird style of SSJ because his hair went from a normal style to a freakin' crown of golden thorns. Now THAT is a disturbing notion. Surprisingly enough however, I noticed right away when Vegeta made the leap from form to form, it just had more indication, and I can safely say anyone who didn't notice the transformation must be.... quite disturbed.

[Olivier Hague]

You're always putting the manga one step over the anime, huh? Duo, you're about as partial to the manga as MajinVegetaXV is to the Toei DBZ discs as opposed to FUNimation's, and you both take every opportunity you can to say so. Interesting.

Logical, too.

[Bejiita]

I think Gohan's SSJ2 hair doesn't even grow to be honest, I'm talking from SSJ1 to 2, I think that is realistically the length oh his hair fully extended due to the high pressure of Ki and static electricity, take his SSJ 1 hair and remove the bends and start upward from the hair line and add sharpness from the electric and his hair naturally would be that long fully stretched on end, you'd be suprised how much your hair can stretch.

Anyway, I can see a significant loss of hair length in the new images found in games and on DVD's, and looking at the image used in Budokai 3, it's, to put it plaintly, shit.

It's like they stripped Toriyama's style of drawing completely, and there was a point where I got used to this polished style and even started to think it was cool, but looking back at it now, that just isn't Gohan, his head is abnormaly large, there's more strands of hair and it's shorter, and it's got more curls in it when the original's is more upright. The drawing is neat but not good, his arms are tiny.

Although I can tell the the artist of that pictures thinks he did a wonderful job, I don't, and to be frank, I don't even think Toriyama is happy with that, he must be like, 'yea, whatever', he is a very laid back man. The stlye he used for the eyes and shape of face is a nice rounded style, with the not many sharp corners, so they look more life like, if that other Gohan was real I wouldn't want to get near him incase I stab myself on one of the sharp edges!

[Snail]

The new artist, or maybe group of artists? have also been creating the cover art for the dvds being released over at Japan, and also cover art for games as well haven't they? The new style they've adapted to is very neat, not to mention sometimes irritatingly bright and shiny with the colors, but as Bejita mentioned, it is not that great, ...at all. This new style often make the characters look a little abnormal, and at times awkward looking.

I wish the art for Dragonball related merchandise still looked like this:

http://www.producted.com/dragonball/gal ... gogeta.jpg

[Li'l Lemmy]

It does seem that Goku, Vegeta, and 16 year old Gohan all experienced no such "growth" as young Gohan did. Gohan and Vegeta's hair didn't even really change, but Goku's did stick up much straighter and noticeably so.

I was honestly kind've bugged by Vegeta's lack of hair change. It looked so cool when he was "Super Vegeta" that I though a similar design should be used.

Young SSJ2 Gohan is the only one whose hair goes through a very drastic change. But then, maybe that's because of the way his hair is arranged.

It's very unusual how this goes. When Gohan's in SSJ, the hair looks remarkably similar to non-SSJ Goku's. It's something of an abnormality, i think; the colors change and it becomes jagged, but it doesn't really reach "up" the way everyone else's SSJ hair does. But then when SSJ2 comes along, suddenly the hair goes up like nobody else's can, and if you take away the height and sheer size of it you can kind of compare it to the SSJ Goku 'do. It's almost like what I would have "expected" Gohan's hair to do in the first stage.

Goku and Vegeta . . . well, Vegeta especially, his hair is up all the time, so I suppose the artist had to look for other ways to indicate a SSJ2 change, like the added spikiness and erratic lightning.

Super Vegeta? I loved those episodes. There's a shot of Vegeta looking down at the newly-transformed Perfect Cell where his hair is just huge, and I thought to myself, "Why didn't that carry over to SSJ2?"

I know (this is my personal opinion) that I couldn't really tell (besides the facial tone) when Goku did turn SSJ2 because to me there wasn't that much difference in his form, as for Gohan, I think it was a weird style of SSJ because his hair went from a normal style to a freakin' crown of golden thorns. Now THAT is a disturbing notion. Surprisingly enough however, I noticed right away when Vegeta made the leap from form to form, it just had more indication, and I can safely say anyone who didn't notice the transformation must be.... quite disturbed.

Eh? I'm not sure I understand, Jack. Countless people struggle every day trying to determine when any Saiyan (other than young Gohan) is in SSJ2 . . . let alone Vegeta, the most difficult task of them all . . . and you're saying the change is an obvious one? Granted, the clues are there, but . . .

I think Gohan's SSJ2 hair doesn't even grow to be honest, I'm talking from SSJ1 to 2, I think that is realistically the length oh his hair fully extended due to the high pressure of Ki and static electricity, take his SSJ 1 hair and remove the bends and start upward from the hair line and add sharpness from the electric and his hair naturally would be that long fully stretched on end, you'd be suprised how much your hair can stretch.

Say WHAT?! Bejita, does your theory apply to the original images or the new art direction where they butchered the look completely?

Anyway, I can see a significant loss of hair length in the new images found in games and on DVD's, and looking at the image used in Budokai 3, it's, to put it plaintly, shit.

It's like they stripped Toriyama's style of drawing completely, and there was a point where I got used to this polished style and even started to think it was cool, but looking back at it now, that just isn't Gohan, his head is abnormaly large, there's more strands of hair and it's shorter, and it's got more curls in it when the original's is more upright. The drawing is neat but not good, his arms are tiny.

Although I can tell the the artist of that pictures thinks he did a wonderful job, I don't, and to be frank, I don't even think Toriyama is happy with that, he must be like, 'yea, whatever', he is a very laid back man. The stlye he used for the eyes and shape of face is a nice rounded style, with the not many sharp corners, so they look more life like, if that other Gohan was real I wouldn't want to get near him incase I stab myself on one of the sharp edges!

Come to think of it, there's a shot in the anime that almost exactly resembles the Budokai 3 Dragon Universe image. When Cell gets upset and throws the two Kienzan at Gohan (on the first episode of the "Sacrifice" DVD, I think), the image of him holding the two discs off looks like it has the same short hair and tiny arms. I'll see if I can't find a screenshot . . .

Myself, I do like the whole "polished" effect and I love watching how the original art style becomes more and more detailed as the years go by . . . it's truly beautiful work, in some areas . . . but then there's a bizarre, unneeded change like SSJ2 Gohan's hair that makes you wonder why. I can imagine Toriyama-sensei not really minding as you say, but I can just as easily picture him inwardly fussing as an artist about why Toei changes a particular thing to look the way it does. If I were the one who drew the DBZ characters, I'd look at the Budokai 3 image and feel slighted.

['lo Legends]

Well...not even Toriyama's style is the same as it was when he created Super Saiyan 2 Gohan...look at the kanzenban covers for instance.

[Mystic Jack]

OH! Me bad I meant the transformation of Gohan from SSJ to SSJ2.