If Zeno's "universal rankings" aren't based on Power...

[GodVegetto91]

Then why are these 4 highest universes even excempt from entering this Tournament of "POWER" ...?

To me, this heavily seems to imply that these mortals who are part of these 4 highest universes are simply too powerful to enter and would quickly make short work of all these 8 "lower ranked" universes, hence wouldn't be "fair" if they entered. Afterall, this IS the Tournament of "Power." ...

What do you guys think?

[Boo Machine]

The Great Priest explains how they rank each universe by the average level of their inhabited worlds. The quality of mortal life. It's based off how good the Kaioshin and the Gods of destruction do their job. That's why Shin and Beerus start blaming each other for being neglectful when they find out their ranking. ( Beerus sleeps too much and Shin takes a hands off approach)

It's never clear if power is a factor or not, but it's never said that power alone determines the rank. If it was then Universe 7 would be getting ROFL stomped super hard right now, because they are the 2nd lowest ranked universe. But instead we have Goku picking fights with random folk and coming out relatively unscathed.

The 4 Universes left out could have some Total badasses, but they aren't being exempt because their universe are full of powerful fighters, but because they're universes aren't Garbage dumps. Even recent info gives us some insight on how those gods keep their Universes rank. In short, they do the exact opposite of what Shin and Beerus do.

[Yedis]

Beerus: You're bringing to mortal level down.

Goku: We'll Gohan is bringing it up.

If it was about power why would Beerus say his strongest warrior is bringing it down? Why would Goku suggest his son is bringing it up?

[Xeztin]

Beerus: You're bringing to mortal level down.

Goku: We'll Gohan is bringing it up.

If it was about power why would Beerus say his strongest warrior is bringing it down? Why would Goku suggest his son is bringing it up?

I think it has to do with the "quality" of mortals. Such as Goku is an ignoramous and Gohan is a genious. That could have been the only way Beerus meant what he said. I think it has to do with intelligence, (not just intellegence) but the mortals evolution, strength, life span, will, and just the general all quality of nature and life itself. For all we know the mortals from the exempt universes may have found and reached another enlightened plane of self sense. I'm looking for one of these higher ranking universes to have mortals that have disgarded their emotions via evolution, as mortals keep evolving and our bodies gain things we need and gets rid of things we don't need as it adapts to our surroundings. Thats my idea of mortal level, perhaps they've reached a higher state of mind or existence, not just strength.

[Low Tone G]

Then why are these 4 highest universes even excempt from entering this Tournament of "POWER" ...?

To me, this heavily seems to imply that these mortals who are part of these 4 highest universes are simply too powerful to enter and would quickly make short work of all these 8 "lower ranked" universes, hence wouldn't be "fair" if they entered. Afterall, this IS the Tournament of "Power." ...

What do you guys think?

Firstly, I think the "mortal level" has very little to none to do with power level(actual strength). It's more the matter of intelligence, empathy and quality of life of sentinent creatures who live with each other in societies. So it's more about social intelligence and "goodness" of mortals.
By the way, I'm very surprised that Goku was the one who came up with Gohan being the one to raise this level, because I didn't give him credit to understand this level's meaning(mostly due his actual portayal given by Super), but he is very right that Gohan is the one to lift the score.

Let's see, Gohan is:
1. Intelligent and well educated
2. Highly mannered
3. Good in the very sense of the word
4. Does regard life's dignity
5. Loves the nature and people in general
6. Nowdays an official keeper of integrity of his family, friends and pretty much of humanity. He is the offical leader of U7's team
7. Very empathetic
8. Selfless and respects everyone
9. Highly social/very friendly
10. Cares very much for others.

Goku lacks many of these, he's:
1. Selfish
2. War-like(even if he doesn't kill anybody willingly)
3. Nearly lacks any eduation
4. Doesn't treat even his own family properly, at least.(Pretty much anti-social)
5. Doesn't really believe in integrity, he fights on his own and for own lust.
6. He does love the nature, but doesn't understand what society means and why is required.

Secondly, this is Dragon Ball... So if the survival is on its stakes, they will fight instead of relying on intelligence and peaceful collaboration which is exactly what they pretty much lack.(At least, most of the universes which particiapte in this tournament. Maybe, I should still grant that U11 and U2 are the best in that regard as they represent justice, love and kindness.)

The example of how disgraced U9 is from episode 91, is evidence that selfishness lowers that mortal level's average, and selflessness and social intelligence is what raises it.

So if these universes doesn't really do other than making war and fight, then their power should be what shall save them, and I like this concept.

[GodVegetto91]

That's all nice and all, but it still doesn't explain why they are excempt from entering this tournament of "Power". And i am pretty sure in one of these other 4 universes there's a fighter(s) more powerful than Jiren. It's just how Dragonball works, the next opponent is always stronger than the last. If there is going to be another tournament in the future (since i don't believe the erased universes will stay erased forever, we know they have Super Dragon Balls and what not) than it will involve all 12 universes, and logically as a new challenge for Goku there will be even stronger guys showing up than Jiren, making Jiren the new Hit who nearly jobs to one of their weaker guys, it's just how dragonball works and you all know it. They may say they aren't power based, but i'm willing to bet money that the strongest mortal in the Multiverse is going to be an inhabitant of Universe 1. The Supreme Universe (Just like how Jiren, the strongest mortal participating in this tournament JUST SO happens to be part of universe 11, the Highest Level universe participating in this tournament that wasn't excempt). Coincidence? I don't think so.

[Low Tone G]

That's all nice and all, but it still doesn't explain why they are excempt from entering this tournament of "Power". And i am pretty sure in one of these other 4 universes there's a fighter(s) more powerful than Jiren. It's just how Dragonball works, the next opponent is always stronger than the last. If there is going to be another tournament in the future (since i don't believe the erased universes will stay erased forever, we know they have Super Dragon Balls and what not) than it will involve all 12 universes, and logically as a new challenge for Goku there will be even stronger guys showing up than Jiren, making Jiren the new Hit who nearly jobs to one of their weaker guys, it's just how dragonball works and you all know it. They may say they aren't power based, but i'm willing to bet money that the strongest mortal in the Multiverse is going to be an inhabitant of Universe 1. The Supreme Universe (Just like how Jiren, the strongest mortal participating in this tournament JUST SO happens to be part of universe 11, the Highest Level universe participating in this tournament that wasn't excempt). Coincidence? I don't think so.

First of all, it can explain why they are excempt from entering the tournament for survival, and maybe the "power" represent the characterstic which all the 8 entering uniserses are about: fighting!
Even the highest ranked U11 is about fighting as the Pride troopers are essentially fighting brutally for justice, but it's still about the strength even if it's against evil.

I can assume that the already developed universes' deities recognized that their job is to sustain the wellness (and balance) of their universes. Even the self-proclaimed Justice Universe(U11) is ruled by deities who pretty much rely on a mortal hero team to manage their evil. It can be true that Belmod doesn't tolerate evil, but maybe even he is too lazy(or some other selfish reason prevents him) to do all the work by himself by destroying baddies.

Lastly, there is no contradiction that the highest ranked universe(among the ones which are excempt) could have a mortal even stronger than a hakaishin(and Jiren) for the matter of fact, even if the mortal level is mostly about what I theorized in my earlier post.

[DragonBallLove]

...disgarded their emotions via evolution, as mortals keep evolving and our bodies gain things we need and gets rid of things we don't need as it adapts to our surroundings.

That went SOOOO well for GL's Guardians of the Universe...

[BlueBasilisk]

Beerus: You're bringing to mortal level down.

Goku: We'll Gohan is bringing it up.

If it was about power why would Beerus say his strongest warrior is bringing it down? Why would Goku suggest his son is bringing it up?

I swear I remember a scene where Shin says they don't factor power into the mortal level. It was in response to someone saying U7's mortal level should be good because Goku is strong. Did I just make that up? :S

[Jack Bz]

The fact that it is a martial arts tournament to determine what universe survives is arbitrary. All the universes were going to be destroyed except 4 of them who had the highest mortal level. Then zeno watched the U6 vs U7 tournament, decided he wanted to see more of that with more universes because it entertained him, and decided whoever wins will have their universe spared as well as a gesture of goodwill.

That implies nothing about the strength of the four none participating universes.

[jplaya2023]

yeah it's not about power level they never really explained it. Just randomness i guess

[TheOne]

They have briefly tossed in on more than one occasion that power does play a factor in mortal levels.

[Lord Beerus]

Boo Machine and Low Tone G explained it already perfectly.

How the universes are rated and ranked are based solely on how well the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin of their respective universe mange the progression and evolution of all life that they look over, as well as the nature of the inhabitants of their universe.

Considering that only one universe has a lower mortal rating than Universe 7 (Universe 9), I think it's safe to say that the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of Universe 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 & 11, the universes that are taking part in the tournament, were doing a better job of managing their universes by making sure that shit like Freeza terrorizing the galaxy for what felt like an eternity, the Androids causing havoc and Majin Boo running amok in the universe for God knows how long, never happened and/or were quickly nipped in the bud.

But obviously the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of the other universes weren't doing their job to the best of their ability considering the mortal levels for those universes is still below the acceptable standard, so some shit still went down in those other universes that they are very much accountable for. But it was nowhere near the level of catastrophes that happened in the train-wreck universe that is Universe 7 and didn't also coincidentally benefit from it as much as the main cast of Universe 7 did.

Naming the tournament the "Tournament Of Power" holds no real bearing as the grand scheme behind why the universes selected are taking part in the tournament that they are with the stakes set in the fashion of which they are. They aren't the most powerful universes in the current multiverse. They are the worst managed universes in the multiverse that just so happen to have a few strong people in them.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Its pretty obvious that they arent involved because Zeno is trying to get rid of the Universe that are bringing nothing to the table. It could have also been a tournament of Chinese Checkers with the same result. The tournament is only to give one universe a chance to survive while trimming the fat.

[dbgtFO]

Mortal levels are indeed just the abundance of highly developed mortal civilizations, but there can be correlation between mortal levels and power levels.
I would argue that Universes with high mortal level would naturally also have a higher likelihood of having immensely powerful beings among them, but of course it's not a guarantee.

[Low Tone G]

Boo Machine and Low Tone G explained it already perfectly.

How the universes are rated and ranked are based solely on how well the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin of their respective universe mange the progression and evolution of all life that they look over, as well as the nature of the inhabitants of their universe.

Considering that only one universe has a lower mortal rating than Universe 7 (Universe 9), I think it's safe to say that the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of Universe 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 & 11, the universes that are taking part in the tournament, were doing a better job of managing their universes by making sure that shit like Freeza terrorizing the galaxy for what felt like an eternity, the Androids causing havoc and Majin Boo running amok in the universe for God knows how long, never happened and/or were quickly nipped in the bud.

But obviously the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of the other universes weren't doing their job to the best of their ability considering the mortal levels for those universes is still below the acceptable standard, so some shit still went down in those other universes that they are very much accountable for. But it was nowhere near the level of catastrophes that happened in the train-wreck universe that is Universe 7 and didn't also coincidentally benefit from it as much as the main cast of Universe 7 did.

Naming the tournament the "Tournament Of Power" holds no real bearing as the grand scheme behind why the universes selected are taking part in the tournament that they are with the stakes set in the fashion of which they are. They aren't the most powerful universes in the current multiverse. They are the worst managed universes in the multiverse that just so happen to have a few strong people in them.

From an out of universe perspective, maybe Toriyama is trying to somewhat invalidate the commom belief that Dragon Ball is all about power and such...

If the mortal level was about the power level, then U7 would one of the top three, being that it has 3 fighters who have unrivaled power and essentially, two of them are literal Gods.

This new concept of putting the job's quality and its effectivness above the acutal strength, it's new and refreshing, I think. I'm not really with those who say, that this Arc is just another generic tournament, I like this mortal level perspective.

When we finally knew about back in the Battle of Gods Arc why the balance is imporant in the universe and it is supposed to be managed by the Hakaishin and Kaioshin, we pretty much thought(I certainly did) that Beerus' and Shin's way of doing it is the standard, well-done job.

But we evetually learned that their attitude was the real reason why this universe has always been in a very serious danger. The danger was latent, but it was always there.

[Lord Beerus]

Boo Machine and Low Tone G explained it already perfectly.

How the universes are rated and ranked are based solely on how well the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin of their respective universe mange the progression and evolution of all life that they look over, as well as the nature of the inhabitants of their universe.

Considering that only one universe has a lower mortal rating than Universe 7 (Universe 9), I think it's safe to say that the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of Universe 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 & 11, the universes that are taking part in the tournament, were doing a better job of managing their universes by making sure that shit like Freeza terrorizing the galaxy for what felt like an eternity, the Androids causing havoc and Majin Boo running amok in the universe for God knows how long, never happened and/or were quickly nipped in the bud.

But obviously the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of the other universes weren't doing their job to the best of their ability considering the mortal levels for those universes is still below the acceptable standard, so some shit still went down in those other universes that they are very much accountable for. But it was nowhere near the level of catastrophes that happened in the train-wreck universe that is Universe 7 and didn't also coincidentally benefit from it as much as the main cast of Universe 7 did.

Naming the tournament the "Tournament Of Power" holds no real bearing as the grand scheme behind why the universes selected are taking part in the tournament that they are with the stakes set in the fashion of which they are. They aren't the most powerful universes in the current multiverse. They are the worst managed universes in the multiverse that just so happen to have a few strong people in them.

From an out of universe perspective, maybe Toriyama is trying to somewhat invalidate the commom belief that Dragon Ball is all about power and such...

If the mortal level was about the power level, then U7 would one of the top three, being that it has 3 fighters who have unrivaled power and essentially, two of them are literal Gods.

This new concept of putting the job's quality and its effectivness above the acutal strength, it's new and refreshing, I think. I'm not really with those who say, that this Arc is just another generic tournament, I like this mortal level perspective.

When we finally knew about back in the Battle of Gods Arc why the balance is imporant in the universe and it is supposed to be managed by the Hakaishin and Kaioshin, we pretty much thought(I certainly did) that Beerus' and Shin's way of doing it is the standard, well-done job.

But we evetually learned that their attitude was the real reason why this universe has always been in a very serious danger. The danger was latent, but it was always there.

You bring up a lot of good points. This arc really does emphasize how much the roles of Kaioshin and Hakaishin are important in the perspective of the universe they inhabit. If you think about, every arc and tidbit about Dragon Ball was leading up to this. The Kaioshins not taking care of Freeza and letting him run rampant in the universe for God knows how long, the main cast actively allowing the Androids to be activated and snowballing the plot to allow Cell to exist, not taking care of Majin Boo during or before his reign of terror when they easily could have if they had just spent like ten seconds of rational thinking. And it all comes together with the universe having only 28 planets with mortal life.

And people wonder why Universe 7 has such a low mortal level. Ironically, I think Kaioshin deserves the least amount of blame because he couldn't oversee the universe properly as he had his hands full with tailing Babidi in his pursuit of trying to resurrect Majin Boo. But despite that, he's been shown to be incredibly uneducated about his universe. And Beerus was a lazy ass Hakaishin who was destroying planets on a whim. Something that even Goku calls him out on. The Gods in Universe 7 are historically known to suck at their jobs and now their incompetence and lackadaisical nature of overseeing their own universe is coming back to bite them in the ass. It's quite cathartic if you think about it. Hopefully after this tournament is over, Beerus, Kaioshin and the main cast will re-evaluate their attitude towards how they treat their universe.

[Ranmaru Rei]

So, Whis is training a wrong dudes. Gohan is more fit for role of GoD.

[julianix]

Power can play a role in universe rankings but that doesn't mean a thing when it comes to finding the 10 strongest fighters in each universe. Maybe overall one universe has a higher average but the weaker universe just happens to have some power houses on their squad.

Those other universes are except because they are going about their business effectively and their universe is thriving.

[Low Tone G]

Boo Machine and Low Tone G explained it already perfectly.

How the universes are rated and ranked are based solely on how well the Kaioshin and the Hakaishin of their respective universe mange the progression and evolution of all life that they look over, as well as the nature of the inhabitants of their universe.

Considering that only one universe has a lower mortal rating than Universe 7 (Universe 9), I think it's safe to say that the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of Universe 2, 3, 4, 6, 10 & 11, the universes that are taking part in the tournament, were doing a better job of managing their universes by making sure that shit like Freeza terrorizing the galaxy for what felt like an eternity, the Androids causing havoc and Majin Boo running amok in the universe for God knows how long, never happened and/or were quickly nipped in the bud.

But obviously the Hakaishin and Kaioshin of the other universes weren't doing their job to the best of their ability considering the mortal levels for those universes is still below the acceptable standard, so some shit still went down in those other universes that they are very much accountable for. But it was nowhere near the level of catastrophes that happened in the train-wreck universe that is Universe 7 and didn't also coincidentally benefit from it as much as the main cast of Universe 7 did.

Naming the tournament the "Tournament Of Power" holds no real bearing as the grand scheme behind why the universes selected are taking part in the tournament that they are with the stakes set in the fashion of which they are. They aren't the most powerful universes in the current multiverse. They are the worst managed universes in the multiverse that just so happen to have a few strong people in them.

From an out of universe perspective, maybe Toriyama is trying to somewhat invalidate the commom belief that Dragon Ball is all about power and such...

If the mortal level was about the power level, then U7 would one of the top three, being that it has 3 fighters who have unrivaled power and essentially, two of them are literal Gods.

This new concept of putting the job's quality and its effectivness above the acutal strength, it's new and refreshing, I think. I'm not really with those who say, that this Arc is just another generic tournament, I like this mortal level perspective.

When we finally knew about back in the Battle of Gods Arc why the balance is imporant in the universe and it is supposed to be managed by the Hakaishin and Kaioshin, we pretty much thought(I certainly did) that Beerus' and Shin's way of doing it is the standard, well-done job.

But we evetually learned that their attitude was the real reason why this universe has always been in a very serious danger. The danger was latent, but it was always there.

You bring up a lot of good points. This arc really does emphasize how much the roles of Kaioshin and Hakaishin are important in the perspective of the universe they inhabit. If you think about, every arc and tidbit about Dragon Ball was leading up to this. The Kaioshins not taking care of Freeza and letting him run rampant in the universe for God knows how long, the main cast actively allowing the Androids to be activated and snowballing the plot to allow Cell to exist, not taking care of Majin Boo during or before his reign of terror when they easily could have if they had just spent like ten seconds of rational thinking. And it all comes together with the universe having only 28 planets with mortal life.

And people wonder why Universe 7 has such a low mortal level. Ironically, I think Kaioshin deserves the least amount of blame because he couldn't oversee the universe properly as he had his hands full with tailing Babidi in his pursuit of trying to resurrect Majin Boo. But despite that, he's been shown to be incredibly uneducated about his universe. And Beerus was a lazy ass Hakaishin who was destroying planets on a whim. Something that even Goku calls him out on. The Gods in Universe 7 are historically known to suck at their jobs and now their incompetence and lackadaisical nature of overseeing their own universe is coming back to bite them in the ass. It's quite cathartic if you think about it. Hopefully after this tournament is over, Beerus, Kaioshin and the main cast will re-evaluate their attitude towards how they treat their universe.

To be honest, I used to be one of those who were angry at Goku being the one coming up with the tournament, as from the first look, he comdemned the most reality to disappear. And yes, Goku's recklessness is very real, but eventually he was the one to save one of convicted universes, which coincidence shows exactly what Toriyama always wanted Goku to be: A guy who loves to test himself and loves to fight over everything else, not a selfless hero who is committed to justice and good... As the sensei said, Goku isn't necessarily a good guy, being that he saved the world multiple times can very easily be the matter of luck.

But an even deeper meaning can emerge as Goku should now learn that he isn't the whole reality and he must stop being so selfish and naive. Goku himself said something when he recruited Krillin, like he must rely on others, not only himself, maybe that's what he should learn.