Did (Manga) Vegeta reach SSjG from the ritual or from training with Whis?

[MatureGambino]

I'm still confused on how he attained it.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta attaining SSJG is never explained in the manga. Vegeta just trained in the ROSAT for one day (one year), and then displayed he could transform into SSJG and stated he needed this form to fight Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

If he did have the form prior to his trip in the ROSAT, then he's absolute fucking moron for not using the form against Cabba or Hit in the Champa arc or against Goku Black in his first encounter with him. In both of those scenarios, he could have easily won those fights without wasting energy.

If he didn't attain the from to his training in the ROSAT, then that's just lazy writing. How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with? Did he brute force his way to becoming a Super Saiyan Blue and then just spent one day (one year) training and attained Super Saiyan God after that? Because if that's the case, that undermines a hell of a lot of Battle Of Gods.

The anime at least had the throwaway line which states that Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God while training with Goku. But that's the lesser of two evils in this scenario, because it's still just lazy writing and makes Super Saiyan God less of a mystical transformation and just a cheap and convenient power-up. You don't even need the ritual at all to achieve the form. You just need to train hard enough. Fuck that nonsense. Do something unique with the Godly transformations. Don't make them into cheap power-ups anybody can get their hands on. That's not saying that Super Saiyan God wasn't already easy and cheap form to attain that to begin with, but it could have at least been expanded on.

I hope Toyotaro will clear all this up in the future. Vegeta having SSJG in the manga is a no-win situation at this stage.

[LightBing]

It's heavily implied he got it when he trained in the RoSaT for a day after losing against Black.

This is what he says " I finally realized that what I truly need to defeat you is this form(SSJG)." Chapter 22, page 13.

There's also the fact that he didn't use it at the U6 tournament, when he should have if he had it. It's very clear to me, the quote above supports it.

How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with?

Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

[TheMikado]

Vegeta attaining SSJG is never explained in the manga. Vegeta just trained in the ROSAT for one day (one year), and then displayed he could transform into SSJG and stated he needed this form to fight Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black.

If he did have the form prior to his trip in the ROSAT, then he's absolute fucking moron for not using the form against Cabba or Hit in the Champa arc or against Goku Black in his first encounter with him. In both of those scenarios, he could have easily won those fights without wasting energy.

If he didn't attain the from to his training in the ROSAT, then that's just lazy writing. How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with? Did he brute force his way to becoming a Super Saiyan Blue and then just spent one day (one year) training and attained Super Saiyan God after that? Because if that's the case, that undermines a hell of a lot of Battle Of Gods.

The anime at least had the throwaway line which states that Vegeta brute forced his way to becoming a Super Saiyan God while training with Goku. But that's the lesser of two evils in this scenario, because it's still just lazy writing and makes Super Saiyan God less of a mystical transformation and just a cheap and convenient power-up. You don't even need the ritual at all to achieve the form. You just need to train hard enough. Fuck that nonsense. Do something unique with the Godly transformations. Don't make them into cheap power-ups anybody can get their hands on. That's not saying that Super Saiyan God wasn't already easy and cheap form to attain that to begin with, but it could have at least been expanded on.

I hope Toyotaro will clear all this up in the future. Vegeta having SSJG in the manga is a no-win situation at this stage.

Wait what???????????????????????

How is SSG not appearing until well into the tournament of power any better?????????

Here is what we actually know from the manga.

1) Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB. Meaning in order to obtain SSB in the first place Vegeta would have to have obtained SSG first.

2) Vegetas use of SSG was specifically him training to remove the stamina transformation drain. It is Unknown if sustained transformations drain as much stamina but it’s usage in the manga and NOW the anime.... seems to imply that.

3) The manga offers no real explanation on “how” it was obtained. The anime seems to imply Vegeta obtained God levels through sheer training, however it’s bever shown or stated that he obtained SSG through these means and to this day we still don’t know if Vegeta even possesses the form in the anime. It would seem that he doesn’t as he clearly would have used it by now for similar reasons as Goku using it in the anime. The most we do know from the anime is that after training with Whis Vegeta can now go SSB...?

Out of universe:
The truth is no one planned anything ahead at all, even less so than the original series. Further, in addition to not planning ahead it seems few people involved seem to give a crap of coherence or consistency.

On the one hand Toyotaro seems to the add to the lore but making SSG a predecessor to SSB on the same way SSJ1 is the predessor to SSJ2. We still do not know the exact requirements for being SSB in the anime. At the end of the day it’s just another example of how much of a tire fire and garbage heap the lore of Super is compared to the original series. If SSG was always a thing in both media it should have made a sooner appearance. The saving grace of the manga is that it skipped RoF and had SSG appear in every single full arc in some form so it doesn’t feel like a complete and total @$$pull. The anime by contrast has it missed for 5 arcs of you count the filler arcs before it suddenly makes an appearance again for no gat dang reason or explanation. Like I said none of this matters because the source for these stories is completely broken so it’s no wonder both adaptations are going to be garbage level in explanation this.

[TheMikado]

It's heavily implied he got it when he trained in the RoSaT for a day after losing against Black.

This is what he says " I finally realized that what I truly need to defeat you is this form(SSJG)." Chapter 22, page 13.

There's also the fact that he didn't use it at the U6 tournament, when he should have if he had it. It's very clear to me, the quote above supports it.

How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with?

Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

No if you read the manga carefully Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB implying you must obtain SSG before going SSB. Basically Vegeta always had the form and never used it. Thankful someone involved in this took the time to at least TRY and establish some consistent and coherent lore...

[Kinokima]

Vegeta (along with Goku) has been training with Beerus and Whis. That's not normal training. Even if he obtained it in in the RSOAT I can argue that the training on Beerus Planet opened up the door to more advanced power ups. So I don't think it's strange that Vegeta could have obtained SSJG without the ritual when he was training with the Gods. Goku probably would have reached it this way too if he hadn't done the ritual first but there was a time limit at that point.

Even though it may seem like there is no explanation this is enough for me. Granted I do agree that things could definitely be better explained and you shouldn't have to come up with an explanation on your own.

[LowRyder2005]

In the anime it's stated that Vegeta trained on his own and got the godly power "without the ritual", this is in ROF.

Since Blue is "God + Super Saiyan", I think it's pretty clear he shouldn't have been able to go Blue if he hadn't obtained God prior; Vegeta stating he realized how to beat Black should refer to the fact he knew how to exploit the combination of God's speed and Blue's power, it doesn't mean he learned God right there. I don't see the point of questioning the very intuitive fact he should've learned to go God in-between time BOG and after Whis' training.

[LightBing]

It's heavily implied he got it when he trained in the RoSaT for a day after losing against Black.

This is what he says " I finally realized that what I truly need to defeat you is this form(SSJG)." Chapter 22, page 13.

There's also the fact that he didn't use it at the U6 tournament, when he should have if he had it. It's very clear to me, the quote above supports it.

How in the hell did he become a Super Saiyan Blue, if he didn't have Super Saiyan God to begin with?

Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

No if you read the manga carefully Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB implying you must obtain SSG before going SSB. Basically Vegeta always had the form and never used it. Thankful someone involved in this took the time to at least TRY and establish some consistent and coherent lore...

Could you please point me towards where Goku said that? I have the manga very fresh in my memory and I don't remember that line.
Edit: Found the line you're referring to. Like I said below it's ambiguous. SSJ3 is also the form before SSJG by logic, not only in sequence but in power and it isn't a necessity to have SSJG.

Like the line I quoted, everything is full of ambiguity. Goku saying SSG is the form before might simply be referring to power. Vegeta saying he needed SSJG might not be about him obtaining the form but like LowRyder2005 his realization of how to use it. We'll never get a direct answer.

The thing is, the manga does it's job at not forcing hard rules. That's why SSJG made a return and it doesn't contradict anything.

Now SSJ Blue thinking about the supposed logical sequence, why isn't it called SSJG2? Then we remember how the transformation is significantly different from the anime, how in FnF there was further differences regarding the whole God Ki question(which lead to the whole two bases, etc).

Which makes up the conclusion that there's no rule for Blue, the manga told us it's stronger than SSJG and that's all there is to it.
Even Goku Black goes directly from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rosé(his Blue) completely ignoring SSJG. Why couldn't Vegeta do the same?

Again seems pretty obvious to me Vegeta learned the form in-between to defeat Goku Black, it adds narrative weight to the situation.

[TheMikado]

It's heavily implied he got it when he trained in the RoSaT for a day after losing against Black.

This is what he says " I finally realized that what I truly need to defeat you is this form(SSJG)." Chapter 22, page 13.

There's also the fact that he didn't use it at the U6 tournament, when he should have if he had it. It's very clear to me, the quote above supports it.


Why is this a problem? Did Toyotarõ mentioned any rule or let out a line where the forms are connected? Because from what I remember there's nothing of that sort. You are making out problems from your head-canon.

No if you read the manga carefully Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB implying you must obtain SSG before going SSB. Basically Vegeta always had the form and never used it. Thankful someone involved in this took the time to at least TRY and establish some consistent and coherent lore...

Could you please point me towards where Goku said that? I have the manga very fresh in my memory and I don't remember that line.
Edit: Found the line you're referring to. Like I said below it's ambiguous. SSJ3 is also the form before SSJG by logic, not only in sequence but in power and it isn't a necessity to have SSJG.

Like the line I quoted, everything is full of ambiguity. Goku saying SSG is the form before might simply be referring to power. Vegeta saying he needed SSJG might not be about him obtaining the form but like LowRyder2005 his realization of how to use it. We'll never get a direct answer.

The thing is, the manga does it's job at not forcing hard rules. That's why SSJG made a return and it doesn't contradict anything.

Now SSJ Blue thinking about the supposed logical sequence, why isn't it called SSJG2? Then we remember how the transformation is significantly different from the anime, how in FnF there was further differences regarding the whole God Ki question(which lead to the whole two bases, etc).

Which makes up the conclusion that there's no rule for Blue, the manga told us it's stronger than SSJG and that's all there is to it.
Even Goku Black goes directly from Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Rosé(his Blue) completely ignoring SSJG. Why couldn't Vegeta do the same?

Again seems pretty obvious to me Vegeta learned the form in-between to defeat Goku Black, it adds narrative weight to the situation.

Read chapter 22 page 23. I’d read the whole chapter if I were you as it is repeatedly referred to as a lower or downgraded form of SSB.

Not sure why your are caught up on the naming.
SSJ4 doesn’t require SSJ3 nor is it an off shoot.

The fact is SSG is having God ki but not SSJ at least in the manga. Turning on normal SSJ while with God ki gives you SSB. It makes sense because the basis of both forms is gaining God ki in the first place.

I don’t write the rules so I don’t have any thing to discuss beyond that.

[sintzu]

We were never told so I'm going to assume for now that he did the ritual before going to train with Whis and Goku. In terms of why he didn't show it to Cabba, it's the same reaosn why he didn't show him Ssj2 or Ssj3, he wanted to show him the strongest form he had and he thought 10% of his power would've been enough to fight Hit.

[UpFromTheSkies]

1) Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB. Meaning in order to obtain SSB in the first place Vegeta would have to have obtained SSG first.

If he can skip over SS3, why not SSG?

[TheMikado]

1) Goku states that SSG is the form before SSB. Meaning in order to obtain SSB in the first place Vegeta would have to have obtained SSG first.

If he can skip over SS3, why not SSG?

Because SSJ3 was never said to be a prerequisite to SSJ4...

[Hellspawn28]

I think Whis found a way to have Vegeta to go SSjG without any type of ritual. I bet Whis knew about the SSjG the whole time, but he didn't want to tell Beerus.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

He either had the form the entire time or learned it during his rosat training. I'm okay with assuming Vegeta decided to work backwards to minimize the stamina issue and ended up attaining the form while doing so.

[Grimlock]

People still think that all Super Saiyan forms are connected? Like Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan 4 or Super Saiyan 3 to Super Saiyan God?

Also, why people are starting to say there's no connection between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Look at the names, look at speeches, look at official information.

As for the main topic here: We don't know how Vegeta got Super Saiyan God in Toyotaro's version. The author still didn't bother to explain (sounds like a theme when it comes to Dragon Ball; not explain stuff). As I consider Toriyama's version, he achieved through ritual, as implied in Movie 14.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My current approach to this is that learning to tap into SSG's power is what Whis taught Goku and Vegeta.

Basically, instead of learning the forms themselves, they learn what's needed FOR the forms. So, Goku and Vegeta learn how to tap into the power of SSG to use for themselves. However, why just become SSG when you can ascend past it?

My headcanon on this matter is that tapping into the power of SSG as a SS creates SSB, but Goku and Vegeta could always just turn into SSG instead if they felt like it. But why would they? SSB stronger, faster, and its stamina drain, whilst not great, isn't terrible like SS3 either.

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To summarize and hopefully make it easier, think of it like this:

(Learn to tap into SSG's power)
=> Able to turn into SSG by tapping into SSG's power and letting your body transform normally
=> Able to turn into SSB by tapping into SSG's power and transforming into a Super Saiyan instead of letting your body transform normally

[Miracles]

It was stated in ROF where both the Super anime and manga are based on.

[Kataphrut]

I like to think he just did the ritual at some point. Got everyone up at 3 in the morning for it.

"Gohan! Give me your child!"

[Gokitalo]

He either had the form the entire time or learned it during his rosat training. I'm okay with assuming Vegeta decided to work backwards to minimize the stamina issue and ended up attaining the form while doing so.

Same here. You know, odd as it may sound... maybe Super Saiyan God is just skippable if you don't do the ritual. Maybe Vegeta just went straight to Super Saiyan Blue, and once he did that, intuitively knew how to power down to Super Saiyan God. I think the Whis training theory you guys have given is also a good one (and even more likely).

Anyway, it is true that Super Saiyan God does seem to lose something special about it when you don't really need the ritual after all, although it's an understandable change for the sake of conveniency. But there's another way to look at it, and it has to do with Vegeta. This is a man who trains so hard, who is so driven, that he is actually capable of reaching levels nobody else would be able to figure out how to do on their own. Which is the point of Vegeta, isn't it? He's so competitive and determined that he'll push himself to achieve what most people think is impossible.

I like to think he just did the ritual at some point. Got everyone up at 3 in the morning for it.

"Gohan! Give me your child!"

Works for me!

[ChiefWamsutta]

Okay, so, the use of the word "skip" has almost lost its meaning. A Saiyan can't "skip" over Super Saiyan 3 to reach Super Saiyan God. The two forms are not connected by a linear branching. Vegeta never achieved SS3 because that form was the last form at the end of the branch. Imagine climbing a tree and you go out on one of the limbs. Your friend (Goku) makes it to the edge, but you (Vegeta) only make it halfway to the edge of the limb -- SS3 is at the edge of the limb and SS2 is more in the middle.

When Goku and Vegeta began training with Whis, they began to see transformations in a different light. SSGod and SSBlue are not on the same "branch of the tree," so to speak, as SS1/SS2/SS3. Imagine it like Goku and Vegeta started climbing up the tree (progressing in power), and they found a branch on the south side of the tree (Yellow SS1/SS2/SS3 branch). They noticed it went higher up, so they took that route. Goku got to the edge of the branch (SS3) and was trying to go higher, but couldn't. For Vegeta it was becoming a steep climb too. Then Whis shows up and says, "Hey, don't use the branch on the south side to get higher. Try using this branch on the north side." Goku and Vegeta do so, and they never possibly imagined they could find a branch that went this high (never imagined finding a power this strong in SSG and SSB) because they were so focused on the one branch they were on (focused on using Yellow SS1/SS2/SS3 to reach higher heights).


NOTE: Parts of this are my own head-canon.

Now, in regards to the original posting, I feel that Goku and Vegeta actually achieved forms in very similar ways. In BOG, Goku uses the ritual to become SSGod. Then he loses it and it's still merging with his body when he is a yellow SS1 against Beerus in Ep. 14. Then it fully merges and becomes SBG. (This is obviously not what the original intent of the writing for the show was, but given future information this is what I believe allows for consistency). At this point in the anime, I feel that Goku CANNOT access SSGod. I think he can only access part of its power i.e. SBG. Using the POWER of SSGod in SBG, he transforms into a Super Saiyan, resulting in SSBlue.

I am saying that I believe you don't necessarily need the SSGod form to become SSBlue, but you can use the partial power from SBG. (Again, not necessarily canon or true, but my explanation). So in ROF, Goku says that Vegeta accesses SSGod on his own without other Saiyans. Before Goku got to Beerus' planet, I believe Vegeta brute forced his way to SSGod (Maybe his Saiyan royalty allowed for this), BUT it had the same time limit that Goku had. He absorbed the POWER of the SSGod form, resulting in SBG. Then, together, Goku and Vegeta learn to use Super Saiyan on top of the POWER of SSGod in SBG, resulting in SSBlue. Then during the time for the ToP, Goku learned to fully tap into the POWER of SSGod, resulting in an SSGod form without a time limit. So, if he uses PART of the power, it results in SBG. ALL of the power results in SSGod, and going Super Saiyan while using ANY quantity of power equals SSBlue.

This is my way of trying to explain everything. I hope it doesn't feel like reaching to most of you.