Kaioken vs Super Saiyan

[Ziegander]

I had a thought this morning. Goku used Kaioken before he achieved the Super Saiyan transformation, but after becoming a Super Saiyan he never used it again until he achieved the Super Saiyan Blue transformation, which is basically described as a perfect Ki control Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation, a Super Saiyan with the power of a God if you will. Goku and all of the other saiyans have this transformation that just multiplies their power levels with little to no drawbacks (though differing forms certainly vary). So, obviously a 50 times power level multiplier from Super Saiyan with little to no discernible drawbacks is dramatically more beneficial than a 2x, 4x, 10x, or even the 20x multiplier offered by Kaioken since Kaioken was introduced as something that is incredibly strenuous on the body and potentially lethal (even though Goku, the only character ever seen using it, has not one time ever been harmed by it... dragon ball).

Now, since it's inception, Super Saiyan has been retconned to have more of a stamina cost to it than fighting in base form, but, that's really only ever been stated hasn't it? I can't recall a single time when a fighter using Super Saiyan form has ever exhausted themselves to the point that they just couldn't fight anymore, at least not without also being first beaten within an inch of their lives, which kind of takes you out of the fight regardless. Kaioken on the other hand, while still not exactly living up to its potentially lethal warning label, seems to carry more narrative weight as a risky, draining technique that has to be used sparingly.

My thought, then, was, "what makes the Super Saiyan transformation and Kaioken different?" They both simply multiply one's power level, that's that. They make you a better, stronger, faster warrior through large, precise leaps. A potential Kaioken x50 should have the exact same power output effect as the Super Saiyan transformation, right? Would it exact a higher toll on the user's body, mind, spirit? If so, then why?

I theorize that since Goku showed no signs of wear and tear from using Kaioken x20 on Namek when he first faced Freeza, and since he soon after achieved a transformation that pushed his body to 50 times it's previous limits, then, in my mind, there must be little to no actual differences between the form and the technique's toll on the body, and Goku's body had simply reached a level that it could endure being pushed as far as 50 times it's current limit. As I mentioned earlier, if they were really all that different, then there's no reason why Goku couldn't have stacked Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan, at least as early as the Cell saga, except to consider that perhaps his body could not actually withstand such a vastly greater multiplier on top of what Super Saiyan already afforded him.

In theory, then, Goku, instead of acquiring the Super Saiyan transformation, could have simply taken his Kaioken technique as far as x50 without suffering any noticeable drawbacks for it. I suppose the argument can be made, then, that x20 is just the technical limit of the Kaioken technique. As far as I know, no such limit has ever been stated, but to date Goku has never used a multiplier higher than 20.

So, if Goku could theoretically just stay in base form and use Kaioken x400 to achieve the same power level as SSJ3, and the way I see it the only evidence stating that he can't is the arbitrarily larger toll on the body Kaioken seems to take compared with Super Saiyan transformations (and it's kind of hard to concretely show that it does or why it should), then can he use Kaioken to achieve the same power level as a Super Saiyan God or SSB?

What do you guys think? Do you see any reason why higher levels of Kaioken shouldn't be equivalent to Super Saiyan transformations, their higher grades and their higher levels? If so, are those reasons backed up by in-universe evidence or do you simply think there should be a narrative difference even if the source material doesn't necessarily support it? If you don't see any reason why Kaioken couldn't replicate the power of Super Saiyan transformations, then do you think this idea has any narrative potential for the series? Where might that sort of idea go?

[ankokudaishogun]

NOTE WELL: number straight out of my ass for the sake of explanation-


Super Saiyan is a natural transformation of the Saiyan body.
The body changes, and becomes able to develop a much greater power than before.
It's taxing mostly because it's energy-inefficient: using Ki in Super Saiyan form cost X% more Ki\Stamina than in normal form.
That's usually not much of a problem because the Effect Multiplier is much greater:
if the Energy Drain is 20% higher than in base form, the Resulting Power is 5000% higher, so who cares if it's a little more tiring?
Another negative side-effect is that Ki in Super Saiyan form is always "wilder" and more unstable\harder to control than in Base form.

Kaiohken basically FORCES such power out of the body, causing massive amount of stress on the body.
One can see it as an artificial Super Saiyan form of sort.
(IIRC Goku's long staying in the hospital after the first Vegeta fight was due Kaiohken overuse, as well. Also, breaking Goku's Ki after SSBlue Kaiohken )
Using Kaiohkon x2 would cause a Resulting Power 200% higher than Base, but the Energy Drain would be 100% higher.
It can do if you use it for brief bursts, like Goku did against Nappa or was doing against Jiren in the begin, but using it over a longer fight it risks to become a problem as it is a steady massive drain on Ki and Stamina with each possible sustained wound making everything worse.
And the Ki\Stamina Drain keeps gets proportionally(if not Geometrically or Logarithmically) higher together with the Resulting Power multiplies.
Goku against Freeza simply wasn't able (yet?) to use Kaiohken x50, because his body wouldn't have been able to sustain a 2500% increased Ki\Stamina Drain.

[BWri]

I had a thought this morning. Goku used Kaioken before he achieved the Super Saiyan transformation, but after becoming a Super Saiyan he never used it again until he achieved the Super Saiyan Blue transformation, which is basically described as a perfect Ki control Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan transformation, a Super Saiyan with the power of a God if you will. Goku and all of the other saiyans have this transformation that just multiplies their power levels with little to no drawbacks (though differing forms certainly vary). So, obviously a 50 times power level multiplier from Super Saiyan with little to no discernible drawbacks is dramatically more beneficial than a 2x, 4x, 10x, or even the 20x multiplier offered by Kaioken since Kaioken was introduced as something that is incredibly strenuous on the body and potentially lethal (even though Goku, the only character ever seen using it, has not one time ever been harmed by it... dragon ball).

Now, since it's inception, Super Saiyan has been retconned to have more of a stamina cost to it than fighting in base form, but, that's really only ever been stated hasn't it? I can't recall a single time when a fighter using Super Saiyan form has ever exhausted themselves to the point that they just couldn't fight anymore, at least not without also being first beaten within an inch of their lives, which kind of takes you out of the fight regardless. Kaioken on the other hand, while still not exactly living up to its potentially lethal warning label, seems to carry more narrative weight as a risky, draining technique that has to be used sparingly.

My thought, then, was, "what makes the Super Saiyan transformation and Kaioken different?" They both simply multiply one's power level, that's that. They make you a better, stronger, faster warrior through large, precise leaps. A potential Kaioken x50 should have the exact same power output effect as the Super Saiyan transformation, right? Would it exact a higher toll on the user's body, mind, spirit? If so, then why?

I theorize that since Goku showed no signs of wear and tear from using Kaioken x20 on Namek when he first faced Freeza, and since he soon after achieved a transformation that pushed his body to 50 times it's previous limits, then, in my mind, there must be little to no actual differences between the form and the technique's toll on the body, and Goku's body had simply reached a level that it could endure being pushed as far as 50 times it's current limit. As I mentioned earlier, if they were really all that different, then there's no reason why Goku couldn't have stacked Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan, at least as early as the Cell saga, except to consider that perhaps his body could not actually withstand such a vastly greater multiplier on top of what Super Saiyan already afforded him.

In theory, then, Goku, instead of acquiring the Super Saiyan transformation, could have simply taken his Kaioken technique as far as x50 without suffering any noticeable drawbacks for it. I suppose the argument can be made, then, that x20 is just the technical limit of the Kaioken technique. As far as I know, no such limit has ever been stated, but to date Goku has never used a multiplier higher than 20.

So, if Goku could theoretically just stay in base form and use Kaioken x400 to achieve the same power level as SSJ3, and the way I see it the only evidence stating that he can't is the arbitrarily larger toll on the body Kaioken seems to take compared with Super Saiyan transformations (and it's kind of hard to concretely show that it does or why it should), then can he use Kaioken to achieve the same power level as a Super Saiyan God or SSB?

What do you guys think? Do you see any reason why higher levels of Kaioken shouldn't be equivalent to Super Saiyan transformations, their higher grades and their higher levels? If so, are those reasons backed up by in-universe evidence or do you simply think there should be a narrative difference even if the source material doesn't necessarily support it? If you don't see any reason why Kaioken couldn't replicate the power of Super Saiyan transformations, then do you think this idea has any narrative potential for the series? Where might that sort of idea go?

Kaioken has always been a technique with a huge physical drawback. That hasn't really ever been retconned or downplayed. Sure, Goku can use it for longer periods now and can use higher multipliers, but it's still never been shown to be something he can just turn on for more than a few seconds. Goku typically uses it in burst for single attacks or combos to give them more "oomph". Goku was severely hurt to the point his body couldn't function properly in two instances when he pushed the technique beyond what his body was capable of handling. Him using KK x20 on Namek with little to no fanfare is problematic, but it doesn't suddenly negate all the previously established drawbacks. The thing is SSJ will always be a superior powerup to kaioken because it doesn't physically destroy your body like kaioken, it merely drains stamina, which I believe kaioken always does but much more heavily. The only time a saiyan transformation reaches kaioken levels of drawback is SSJ3 and even that is much more favorable to KK.

SSJ3 -
Drains stamina like nobody's business, probably worse than Kaioken
Doesn't damage the body
Gives a x400 power boost according to the daiz

KK -
Drains stamina
Heavy strain damages the body
The higher the multiplying the more it strains the body
Goku never goes higher than x20
Can be combined with SSB

They went into detail during the U6 arc about why KK was incompatible with SSJ and compatible with Blue. Blue has a calmer, less strenuous source of ki. Stacking KK on top of SSB had a 90% (IIRC) chance of killing Goku and when he pushed it to x10 it broke his body to the point he couldn't properly use his ki. If he stacked KK on top of any of the golden forms it likely would have killed him 100% of the time.

Oh and SSJ level one has minimal strain to no strain. Apparently one still possesses a tad bit of maliciousness while transformed, enough to make forming a spirit bomb impossible, but otherwise its nearly as effortless to use as base. Super should honestly showcase that more by having all the U7 saiyans constantly in SSJ1, but to my knowledge they haven't retconned what Gohan and Goku learned during the Cell arc.

[Arugela]

I think to simplify it SS in a story sense was the improvement to KK. SS was a sustainable version of KK. SSG is now an improved more powerful version of SS that is better than SS forms but now can use KK on top like his base form. SSG is also technically just a technique SSB the same on top of a transformation. So with KK he can boost it from perfect ki control like in his base form.

That may indicate he has proper ki control on SSJ 1. Maybe not for SSJ2 and SSJ3. Although if he did would they be SSIndigo and SSViolet?

And logically if he has proper ki control of SSJ1 to add god ki technique there is no point in SSG(which should just be base with god ki or similar) as he can only do KKx10-20 at max and SSB being SSJ with god ki should start at x50 base so there is no reason to do KK with anything less than SSB. Unless the improved Ki control was good for it for long term fights and healing/regen?! But if it is we haven't seen it yet. Maybe SSG is base with KK or similar already. KK increases speed and power but not as much as power is increased from ssb. It hasn't been explained in the anime yet from what i can tell that much. Do we know what the difference is?

KK is definetly more power hungry and hard to use. But it's stackable. Why would you not use SSJ over KK normally. It may not be able to be used with it becuase it's not enough ki control. SSB with KK is SSJ with ki control thus giving KK a chance to work with it with a lot more power. So technically that is what we got. It's the combined use of SSj and KK already. But with ki control making it possible.

Or am I wrong about what SSB is?

Yea, and KK is for sneak attacking the enemy at the last moment to get a strong hit in on them. Like switching between SSG and SSB.

[AvatarReiko]

Make you wonder. Could Goku have beaten Cell if he used KKx10 or x20 on top of SSJ

[Saturnine]

Kaioken x20 was said to be the pinnacle of Kaioken quite recently if I'm not mistaken.

Even if it wasn't though, SSj3 with all its drawbacks would still be preferable to doing a KKx400.

Make you wonder. Could Goku have beaten Cell if he used KKx10 or x20 on top of SSJ

Definitely. Gohan's SSj2 was supposed to only be a bit over 2x stronger than Goku's best, mind you. Of course I don't think that's the case and Gohan was way, way stronger than that IMO.

But you can't go Kaioken on top of SSj or you'll pretty much definitely die, that much was explicitly stated by Goku.

[Ziegander]

Even if it wasn't though, SSj3 with all its drawbacks would still be preferable to doing a KKx400.

But part of my question is, if that's the case, then why? Just because the Super Saiyan transformation also brings accompanying physiological changes that allow the body to withstand the huge, new increase in power?

Make you wonder. Could Goku have beaten Cell if he used KKx10 or x20 on top of SSJ

Definitely. Gohan's SSj2 was supposed to only be a bit over 2x stronger than Goku's best, mind you. Of course I don't think that's the case and Gohan was way, way stronger than that IMO.

But you can't go Kaioken on top of SSj or you'll pretty much definitely die, that much was explicitly stated by Goku.

Yet Goku has used Kaioken a lot and consistently never suffers adversely for it. What makes the strain on his body if he had ever used SSJKKx2 any different then what he experiences going from SSJ to SSJ2? Why is there any difference when the resulting power level should be the same?

Furthermore, the way Goku and Gohan trained in order to unlock Super Saiyan 2, the entire purpose of it was to master the Super Saiyan state, to allow their bodies to grow so accustomed to its power that they could remain in the form all day if necessary, to train away the stamina cost if you will. If he was as successful as he meant to be, what reason would there be for Goku to be unable to push his body further with the Kaioken technique, theoretically all the way back up to x20 on top of SSJ, or at least x10? It wasn't written that way, obviously, and Super has stated it's because of the intense emotional turmoil of the Super Saiyan state (which Goku has not displayed for a long time), but even SSJKKx10 would be more powerful than SSJ3, much faster movement speed, and cost significantly less stamina. I don't see how such a use of Kaioken should be more strenuous than using x20 in base is, if you assume that Goku has trained so much as a Super Saiyan that he has fully mastered it and has full control over his mental and physical faculties as a Super Saiyan, which he is stated to have done.

The way I've always seen Kaioken to work in the anime is that it's not so much maintaining the effect that is any issue, but initiating it is risky. Without precise control over one's ki, initiating the Kaioken, especially the higher multipliers, can kill you outright. That has been true when Goku used it in base form and as a Super Saiyan Blue. But after applying the technique, assuming you survived (which Goku always does), it never seemed to exert any additional strain while Goku used it.

I don't know. Thinking on it today, I suppose it hardly matters at this stage in the game. Perhaps it was simply easier to train and gain new Super Saiyan transformations to gain higher multipliers, more natural on the body, and with no risk of death if you screw up the technique, and with SSG and SSB, the power of a SSJKKx20 is just completely overshadowed. God is probably on the level of SSJKKx10, if not higher, and surely Blue blows SSJKKx20 out of the water.

[TheOne]

Make you wonder. Could Goku have beaten Cell if he used KKx10 or x20 on top of SSJ

They've pointed out that you can't stack SSJ and Kaioken. That'd be suicide.

[Ziegander]

Make you wonder. Could Goku have beaten Cell if he used KKx10 or x20 on top of SSJ

They've pointed out that you can't stack SSJ and Kaioken. That'd be suicide.

Because reasons. Statements made by a character that is neither a Saiyan nor has used the Kaioken technique, that are unsupported by any actual evidence. Using Kaioken at all is potentially suicide, yet Goku always uses it just fine. Using Kaioken with SSJ is supposed to be certain death because of the intense emotions of the Super Saiyan form, yet Goku hasn't been in any emotional stress using SSJ since the first time he acquired the form. This is a guy who spent about a year acclimating himself to the Super Saiyan form, training in it and mastering it to the point that he can fight as a SSJ for hours and remain in the form even while sleeping. So, saying the Super Saiyan state is too emotional to allow Goku the precise ki control to initiate Kaioken seems disingenuous to put it mildly.

[TheMikado]

Kaioken should have been the means to make other non saiyan characters keep up with Saiyan transformations. Teach them all kaioken... the biggest issue is that they could have done this anytime. If anything that’s how I would have used the 40 hours training for everyone and then you could always have them have the ability to push it beyond X20 for “reasons”. Humans have higher potential/ rage boost. Literally any reason at all. We could easily see a x100 or even x500/1000 just because if they writers wanted it. It would be BS but at least it would be a usable plot mechanic.

[Ziegander]

Could've been interesting. On Namek, Goku's got a power level of 3 million before he goes Super Saiyan. The narrative argument could be made, then, that perhaps that's the level one's body must reach before being able to endure the 50 times multiplier being stacked onto it. Before fighting Freeza Goku's best was a x4 kaioken against Vegeta off of a base power of, what 10,000? Am I remembering correctly? So, at the very least you'd have a Krillin that could maybe go as high as a x5, x6, or even x8 multiplier with his power level of 32,000 or so at the end of the Namek saga. I'm sure he trained hard and got considerably stronger by the Cell saga given he was able to inflict pain on even Imperfect Cell with a headbutt. Krillin shows himself capable of hurting a foe whose easily twice as strong as final form Freeza. Obviously that was everything he had and it barely knocked the wind out of Cell, but it's still impressive. There are power scalers that put that Krillin around 4 million at the time, so, theoretically, if he knew the technique, he should be able to handle Kaioken x50 by then, at least if he could achieve the proper ki control for such a feat at the time. A power level of 200 million? For Krillin?! Just imagine! Imperfect Cell would still be far stronger, but going the distance against opponents far stronger than him is what Krillin does. Think of the kienzans!