Pushing back against the anti-Cell and Buu arcs majority sentiment here and elsewhere

[xarmyz]

As a disclaimer, I should admit this thread comes from a place of deepest frustration and resentment that I can no longer hold back in quite lurking. I must let it out and let you know about it. That there is a person who your opinions has legitimately made most unhappy. Who the inhabitants of this board have done more to ruining my enjoying of Dragon Ball then anything the haters of franchise or Toei could ever do. I was one of those people who got into Dragon Ball thanks to it airing on Toonami back in the day and my point of entry was the Android/Cell arc. I had seen bits and pieces of Saiyan and Freeza arc but it never really hooked me until then. I love the grim sci fi tone, the complexity of multiple timelines. The constant unexpected twist and turns, the advancing levels of Super Saiyan which others besides Goku should have felt right and natural to me. And I thought Cell was legitimately one of the greatest villains ever. And then I want online and found even more from site like Planet Namek which told me even more and really fired my imagination. It made me want to watch everything Dragon Ball. (Except for Movies 4 and 11 which everyone even back then said were terrible)

And so I started watching original Dragon Ball as it aired in 2001 together the Buu arc and enjoyed both the very early days of Pilaf and 21st Boudokai and the final canon chapter of the series just as much and slowly filling in the blanks with the the then being released for the first time in the US manga and reruns of Saiyan and Freeza and enjoy everything along the way with the exception of the Red Ribbon Army arc which I admit still bores me to this day. (Yes, I know the irony) And as I grew I became more of fan of the original version over the dub like the rest of you. But though it all, the latter half of Z was always my favorite part. I like the scale of it over what came before with the ever escalating battle powers and threats to the entire universe. I watch lot of other anime over the years too, over 1000 from the 70s until now in fact but Dragon Ball was in my top 20 no matter what. The people who didn't like like it I could accept and everything seem well until I discovered this place about two years ago. And well....

I'm sick of the constant it should have ended with Namek and bashing the later half gets here to often uplift the early parts as "better" and how the vast majority just parrot it over and over and over "blah blah, Goku should be only Super Saiyan, Everyone keeps makes dumb mistakes and that make those arcs bad blah blah early days better written and my opinion is total scientific objective fact and no else who thinks otherwise is as valid blah blah" Not helped by the likes of MistareFusion who is only going to make said views even more widespread and just the thought of that makes me see red.

I think a lot of the objections you have with those arcs are just stupid pointless lines arbitrarily drawn in the sand, that said flaws can be easily squared away if you have the willingness and imagination to do so and that you could easily make a case that rest of the series has just as many flaws as Cell and Buu.

I admit that I am venting bitterness here at you people who don't really know me at all but I that feel I have grown to know quite well in silent watching. I expect most of you will be indifferent to what I just wrote. That you'll think I'm childish for being so upset over such a silly matter (But of course, most of you are equally invested in such matters or else you woundn't be here.)

I suppose what, I'm asking here, is why can't I think that that Late Z era is the high part of the franchise, why must I be forced to conform to the opinions of the majority here including some very prominent people in the fandom. Why can't my views be just as valid as your own?

To want to love a thing your own way and not be constantly told that you are wrong to do so, that's not unreasonable thing to want, is it?

[VegettoEX]

People say this a bit recently, but I continue to say in return:

There's a constant ebb and flow to this. To me it feels like every other day there's some new hivemind that people absolutely agree exists, and yet the next day there's a loud, violent majority that insists it's the exact opposite. I've seen this go back and forth for 20 years on every issue imaginable, Cell/Boo preferences included.

Be your own person. If you enjoy what a critic has to say, that's awesome! If you agree with them, that's awesome! If you don't agree with them, that's awesome! You're entitled to your own history, feelings, emotions, and viewpoints.

All we at Kanzenshuu ask is that you express them as friends, comrades in the journey that we call Dragon Ball fandom. If you see anything that does not live up to our community guidelines, please report the post so that a moderator or administrator can take a look.

That being said: you not agreeing with an opinion does not in and of itself make a post worth reporting.

[ABED]

No one is asking you to conform. You enjoy those arcs, more power to you. I don't dislike them, but they are among my least favorite, despite having a number of great moments.

I know there's irony in this statement, but my opinions on a number of matters have changed over time. I used to find the RRA ridiculously boring. It's still not among my favorite arcs, but after a number of good points were brought up by people over the years, my feelings towards it have changed. Now, I don't know if I prefer the Cell arc over the Buu arc anymore. Bottom line, you're allowed to have a different opinion, and even if I or others strongly disagree with you, that's not inherently disrespectful, but be open to at least hearing dissenting opinions.

[DragonBallKing]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

[xarmyz]

No one is asking you to conform. You enjoy those arcs, more power to you. I don't dislike them, but they are among my least favorite, despite having a number of great moments.

I know there's irony in this statement, but my opinions on a number of matters have changed over time. I used to find the RRA ridiculously boring. It's still not among my favorite arcs, but after a number of good points were brought up by people over the years, my feelings towards it have changed. Now, I don't know if I prefer the Cell arc over the Buu arc anymore. Bottom line, you're allowed to have a different opinion, and even if I or others strongly disagree with you, that's not inherently disrespectful, but be open to at least hearing dissenting opinions.

I don't mind disagreements but I do mind people parroting the strongly held opinions of certain people as facts that I cannot dispute. I just want thing in this fandom to be more say like the JoJo Bizarre Adventure's fandom where every one of the now 8 parts have the lovers and detractors in equal measure.

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

[GamerSkull]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

For me, personally, since I cannot speak for anyone else...

I think the moment Vegeta did it... was when I started to not see the transformation as special anymore.

[DragonBallKing]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

Eh, it kinda downplay's the whole legend thing. One SSJ form is enough for the manga IMO. Goku being the first in hundreds of years because of the extreme rarity of kind hearted saiyans works. If there needs to be more SSJ's the future trunks and gohan works, vegeta could have worked but should have been done differently, and Goten and Trunks......just no.

[xarmyz]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

For me, personally, since I cannot speak for anyone else...

I think the moment Vegeta did it... was when I started to not see the transformation as special anymore.

Why does Super Saiyan have to be anymore special than flying or Ki blasts or there being other Gods than Kami? To me, this is just one of those arbitrary lines in the sand I spoke of.

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

Eh, it kinda downplay's the whole legend thing. One SSJ form is enough for the manga IMO. Goku being the first hundreds of years because of the lack of kind hearted saiyans works. If there needs to be more SSJ's the future trunks and gohan works, vegeta could have worked but should have been done differently, and Goten and Trunks......just no.

Legends can be inaccurate. For all we know Yamoshi could have been in Super Saiyan 3 or God and it would have made just as much sense in the end.

[DragonBallKing]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

For me, personally, since I cannot speak for anyone else...

I think the moment Vegeta did it... was when I started to not see the transformation as special anymore.

That's why I think he shouldn't have achieved it until the buu arc, maybe in my hypothetical canon babidi has some kind of magic that can bypass the kind heart thing

[GamerSkull]

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

Eh, it kinda downplay's the whole legend thing. One SSJ form is enough for the manga IMO. Goku being the first hundreds of years because of the lack of kind hearted saiyans works. If there needs to be more SSJ's the future trunks and gohan works, vegeta could have worked but should have been done differently, and Goten and Trunks......just no.

This. I think if there had to be more than one... than it should have only been Future Trunks and Gohan. As for Goten and Kid Trunks... I think it should have only been done in their fusion state.

[ABED]

No one is asking you to conform. You enjoy those arcs, more power to you. I don't dislike them, but they are among my least favorite, despite having a number of great moments.

I know there's irony in this statement, but my opinions on a number of matters have changed over time. I used to find the RRA ridiculously boring. It's still not among my favorite arcs, but after a number of good points were brought up by people over the years, my feelings towards it have changed. Now, I don't know if I prefer the Cell arc over the Buu arc anymore. Bottom line, you're allowed to have a different opinion, and even if I or others strongly disagree with you, that's not inherently disrespectful, but be open to at least hearing dissenting opinions.

I don't mind disagreements but I do mind people parroting the strongly held opinions of certain people as facts that I cannot dispute. I just want thing in this fandom to be more say like the JoJo Bizarre Adventure's fandom where every one of the now 8 parts have the lovers and detractors in equal measure.

I like them well enough but a few changes could have improved the latter part of the Z series IMO, such as toning down the supa saiya people wank.

But suppose one likes Super Saiyans and see more forms of them as a plus, not a minus?

It's not group think. Is the fact that people don't like or dislike things in equal measure some sign that people are trying to conform to the herd? Or is it more likely that it's simply a consensus that certain parts of the story are better executed than others.

Godfather 1 and 2 are pretty much universally praised, whereas 3 is often maligned. Is that group think or is it a bunch of individuals who share the same opinion that the third installment doesn't hold up well against the first two?

[RedShift]

I enjoy many of the same aspects you (read: OP) do about the Cell, and Majin Buu arcs... I've always felt that the relatively short Android arc was the least interesting.

However as I've gotten older, talked with fellow fans over the internet, and put no small amount of critical thinking into the series various story arcs... The more I've realized that -from a narrative standpoint- Dragonball Z really did peak as a series with Namek and Frieza. That story was at its tightest, the characters at there best, and things fit together nicely.

Does that mean I think that DBZ should have ended with Frieza? No, because it (obviously) didn't and maintaining that kind of stance gets you nowhere. Do I hate the later arcs or think they're awful? Not in the slightest. I enjoy the progressive levels is Super Saiyan, time travel, the escalation of power (even if it's not portrayed on screen much), and the various character moments those arcs contain.

However, I understand (and agree with) many people's criticisms of those arcs. Majin Buu was not a interesting villain... and while not bad by any means, Cell wasn't nearly as interesting or complex as Frieza. And I personally think that killing off Dabura so quickly was a missed opportunity.

[GamerSkull]

I tend to agree that Dragon Ball its peak as a story with both the Saiyan and Namek/Freeza arc (both are in my top 3 arcs).

I’m just a little sour on some of what came afterwards myself. I find myself frustrated over some of the decisions the characters make in the subsequent arcs and some of them really make me question more about the story that I feel I should. That’s why they are my least favorite arcs... but I would be lying if I said I hated them completely. I like some of the concepts that came out of them but I find the execution off in a lot of places.

That being said, I would never say people are wrong for liking these arcs more than I did. Subjectivity, after all.

Plus, there are also a lot of things Toriyama added or changed or tweaked that I don’t necessarily agree with.

[xarmyz]

I enjoy many of the same aspects you (read: OP) do about the Cell, and Majin Buu arcs... I've always felt that the relatively short Android arc was the least interesting.

However as I've gotten older, talked with fellow fans over the internet, and put no small amount of critical thinking into the series various story arcs... The more I've realized that -from a narrative standpoint- Dragonball Z really did peak as a series with Namek and Frieza. That story was at its tightest, the characters at there best, and things fit together nicely.

Does that mean I think that DBZ should have ended with Frieza? No, because it (obviously) didn't and maintaining that kind of stance gets you nowhere. Do I hate the later arcs or think they're awful? Not in the slightest. I enjoy the progressive levels is Super Saiyan, time travel, the escalation of power (even if it's not portrayed on screen much), and the various character moments those arcs contain.

However, I understand (and agree with) many people's criticisms of those arcs. Majin Buu was not a interesting villain... and while not bad by any means, Cell wasn't nearly as interesting or complex as Frieza. And I personally think that killing off Dabura so quickly was a missed opportunity.

Not that I agree with MistareFusion on nearly anything but there is plenty ammunition that could be used to criticize the Freeza arc for if you wanted to. Goku being a plot device more then in any other arc. The Ginyu Force being padding. Piccolo being useless and his fusion with Nail going nowhere. The entire plotline being predictably telegraphed that only Goku will be able to beat Freeza etc. And I wouldn't call Freeza complex at all. A very great villain, yes But straightforward and what you see is what you get as they come. Buu was more complex as he had both a good side and evil side and Cell was to me, a bit more interesting to me as the collective embodiment of all the Z Warriors desires for combat and greater strength take to it's most twisted logical conclusion.

[ABED]

Goku isn't a plot device in that arc and while the Ginyu Force is padding, it's really interesting padding.

Buu was in no way complex. He's pure evil, plain and simple. The side that splits off is a new character, essentially. Freeza is complex. Despite being pure evil, as powerful as he is, he still fears the Saiyans for reasons he doesn't really understand. And why would you call it telegraphing that Goku is the one who will defeat Freeza? Goku's the protagonist. It's like saying it's telegraphed that Superman saves the day in a Superman story. Predictability isn't inherently bad.

[GamerSkull]

I enjoy many of the same aspects you (read: OP) do about the Cell, and Majin Buu arcs... I've always felt that the relatively short Android arc was the least interesting.

However as I've gotten older, talked with fellow fans over the internet, and put no small amount of critical thinking into the series various story arcs... The more I've realized that -from a narrative standpoint- Dragonball Z really did peak as a series with Namek and Frieza. That story was at its tightest, the characters at there best, and things fit together nicely.

Does that mean I think that DBZ should have ended with Frieza? No, because it (obviously) didn't and maintaining that kind of stance gets you nowhere. Do I hate the later arcs or think they're awful? Not in the slightest. I enjoy the progressive levels is Super Saiyan, time travel, the escalation of power (even if it's not portrayed on screen much), and the various character moments those arcs contain.

However, I understand (and agree with) many people's criticisms of those arcs. Majin Buu was not a interesting villain... and while not bad by any means, Cell wasn't nearly as interesting or complex as Frieza. And I personally think that killing off Dabura so quickly was a missed opportunity.

Not that I agree with MistareFusion on nearly anything but there is plenty ammunition that could be used to criticize the Freeza arc for if you wanted to. Goku being a plot device more then in any other arc. The Ginyu Force being padding. Piccolo being useless and his fusion with Nail going nowhere. The entire plotline being predictably telegraphed that only Goku will be able to beat Freeza etc. And I wouldn't call Freeza complex at all. A very great villain, yes But straightforward and what you see is what you get as they come. Buu was more complex as he had both a good side and evil side and Cell was to me, a bit more interesting to me as the collective embodiment of all the Z Warriors desires for combat and greater strength take to it's most twisted logical conclusion.

It’s true that the Freeza arc has places where it objectively falls short of the mark and I can concede that there are some obvious issues even there. However, it is the last time I felt Goku really grew as a character I’m any drastic way, it’s the last place I found Vegeta interesting, and everything after it is more about Saiyan transformations and drawing out more power. Things like Vegeta strategizing on how to get the Dragon Balls and other situations like that become less frequent and/or not as fun to see.

Again, this is just my opinion. There is no need to agree with it or conform to it.

[Doctor.]

I suppose what, I'm asking here, is why can't I think that that Late Z era is the high part of the franchise, why must I be forced to conform to the opinions of the majority here including some very prominent people in the fandom. Why can't my views be just as valid as your own?

To want to love a thing your own way and not be constantly told that you are wrong to do so, that's not unreasonable thing to want, is it?

I think you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody's forcing you to think in a different way than you want to (and considering how you've never actually engaged in any discussions yourself and have just been reading other people's, this is especially ridiculous). Discussions are meant to showcase different perspectives. Seems just like you can't handle different opinions well.

[Gligarman]

For me sometimes it's not so much the arcs themselves so much as what I feel the represent. There are a lot of moments in the Cell Saga that I like but I also feel that it represents the most amount of editor meddling. The Boo Saga represented a return to form, i.e. Dragon Ball gets to be silly again, but there were a few too many "why won't they just..." moments.

[ABED]

For me sometimes it's not so much the arcs themselves so much as what I feel the represent. There are a lot of moments in the Cell Saga that I like but I also feel that it represents the most amount of editor meddling. The Boo Saga represented a return to form, i.e. Dragon Ball gets to be silly again, but there were a few too many "why won't they just..." moments.

Would you rather have 19 and 20 be the antagonists? If you didn't know the behind the scenes story what would lead you to believe that Cell wasn't the intended big bad? I think the transition is pretty seamless, which I appreciate. Also, I think it's not meddling. The editor didn't like 19 and 20, but if push came to shove, I think Toriyama had enough clout, certainly by that point, that if he really wanted 19 and 20, he could've gotten what he wanted.

[xarmyz]

I suppose what, I'm asking here, is why can't I think that that Late Z era is the high part of the franchise, why must I be forced to conform to the opinions of the majority here including some very prominent people in the fandom. Why can't my views be just as valid as your own?

To want to love a thing your own way and not be constantly told that you are wrong to do so, that's not unreasonable thing to want, is it?

I think you're arguing against a strawman. Nobody's forcing you to think in a different way than you want to (and considering how you've never actually engaged in any discussions yourself and have just been reading other people's, this is especially ridiculous). Discussions are meant to showcase different perspectives. Seems just like you can't handle different opinions well.

Is it a strawman when so far not a single person here has really agreed with me albeit in a respectful manner. (all right, VegettoEX is totally neutral here) and you rather callously come in and say basically "Oh, You are just too thinned-skin, get over it." And Other people's opinions can effect one's own if they don't have much in the way of confidence you know. That is why I couldn't keep silent any longer.