Is Current SsjB Goku Stronger Than SsjB Vegito Goku Black Arc?

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:46 am

This question kind of comes from the fact that DBS have been wanking SsjB Goku too far. I want to see your views on this.

When Goku threw the Spirit Bomb, Jiren casually blocks the attack with his hands then later with his eyes. Based on that massive amount of gathered Ki, and the fact that Jiren casually overpowers the Spirit Bomb, Kaioshin concludes that the Ki Jiren outputted is far greater than anything universe 7 warriors has ever faced. This pretty much includes Merged Zamasu as the statement was generally talking about everyone who he and the rest encountered previously. Whis then answers Kaioshin that this Ki coming out Jiren could possibly rival a God Of Destruction's level. Whis Further mentions the Rumor about a Mortal surpassing the God of Destruction of that Universe (Keep in mind that Vermouth defeated Beerus in arm wrestling. Although this could be misleading since it isn't a reliable way of measurement, it still shows that Beerus is nowhere near far from Vermouth even if we would have to say he's superior to Vermouth) and states that it appears to be true, while Vermouth grinning after hearing Whis and agrees. Vermouth states that he was worried about the Spirit Bomb's power but for Jiren it was nothing implying that Jiren is actually stronger than Vermouth. After Goku awakens into Ultra Instinct he manages to trade blows with Jiren but still in the end he has gotten defeated (the true reason Goku was in the end defeated is because he reverted back into base form at the end). Currently our chain seems to imply that Jiren Suppressed from Episode 110 > Ultra Instinct Goku from Episode 110 > Any character they've encountered prior to that moment (or mainly faced as directly stated) which places Merged Zamasu inferior to that kind of Power. This is kind of supported as When Jiren powers up, he makes Beerus react far more than when Infinite Zamasu appeared and affected time and space. Beerus freaked out from Jiren's energy while Beerus didn't react much to Infinite Zamasu at all. Notice The difference in reactions. Also, Whis says nothing about Zamasu's energy being above a God Of Destruction or even wasn't that worried or skeptical, unlike with Jiren.

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Later on Episode 122, Vegeta states that the Jiren on Episode 122 is the strongest energy he has ever encountered. This would mean the energy Vegeta is feeling surpasses that of the Previous Ultra Instinct Goku and reconfirms our point about it being above Merged Zamasu and Infinite Zamasu by far. Yet SsjB Matches Jiren quite well.

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Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren. Despite Goku having already hit Jiren in Ultra Instinct, nothing of such sort has ever been shown to us. Vegeta basically affected Jiren far more than Goku did and made him worry a lot despite having fought Ultra Instinct Goku Prior. Vegeta even trade blows at Jiren and pushes him.

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Do remember, that this Jiren is far stronger than anything Vegeta ever felt prior to this moment. "For some reason" Vermouth is also shocked.

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Vegeta then charges the final flash. This power has let even Vermouth to wonder about the power of Saiyans despite having seen a Saiyan who achieved ultra instinct. He even got worried hilariously:

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The statement Vermouth said about how can Vegeta's final flash have power higher than he did previously implies Vegeta's SsjB being above anything universe 7 has showed before. Vermouth's statement is suggesting that Vegeta's power can't be higher than what it is before, but after it he wonders about Saiyan Potentials. If Ultra Instinct is within Saiyan's potential, then it wouldn't be a surprise unless Vegeta's earlier level was shocking and more than Ultra Instinct episode 110 in the first place. Despite Vegeta already witnessing Jiren's durability and everything to even withstand Ultra Instinct Goku's attacks and his previous attacks as well, Vegeta believes that his blast is enough to deal with Jiren and end his case:

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Beerus believes Jiren would lose against Final Flash (Jiren is suppressed here though):

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And it actually does make Jiren get serious and block with two hands. It also throws him down on the ground for a couple of seconds:

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Toppo was worried, while he didn't show any such sign when Goku went to fight Jiren in Ultra Instinct on Episode 110:

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Getting onto Episode 123. Goku and Vegeta are shocked that Jiren could walk right through Goku's traps as if it's something amazing, despite tanking attacks which are "supposed" to be better (implying Goku magically got stronger, though this is further supported down the road) (The reaction of Goku, and Vegeta's wonder is the surprise):

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Goku fights Jiren while having his aura visible around him (never has Jiren done that before while fighting, and Jiren supposedly is ticked of due to what Goku did to him, which made him far more serious):

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Jiren becomes more than just serious, and Vermouth comments that he senses a rise in Jiren and that he never has seen him that serious in a VERY LONG TIME:

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This Jiren far surpasses anything Jiren has showed before, and Goku powers up, actually trading blows with that same Jiren:

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Jiren got even more serious, by showing a hint of his power only, thus returning Goku to his base form. Jiren's "hint" of his real power is the strongest thing Goku ever felt and witnessed:

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Goku goes Kaioken x20 (It's stated he goes full power), and Beerus believes that Goku has a shot against this same Jiren:

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Vegeta Also transforms, and both Vegeta and Goku attack Jiren together, and Jiren credits both of them to have become far stronger than before:

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What I found interesting is that The Narrator states that BOTH Goku AND Vegeta are together in their limit-breaking forms, despite Goku only being in Kaioken x20, and the fact that Goku has already stated that he got the hang of Ultra Instinct (which originally is his limit breaking power, which has pushed Goku into ultimately new heights, yet Kaioken x20 {episode 123} transcends beyond that):

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So apparently SsjB Goku surpassed Vegeta from Episode 122 who surpassed Ultra Instinct Goku From Episode 116 who's stronger than Ultra Instinct Goku From Episode 110 who's above Infinite Zamasu Who's above SsjB Vegito or at least relative to. According to This, Goku is superior to Vegito from the Future Trunks arc.

Do you agree? If yes, please add anything else if you have something to say. If no, elaborate and argue on it

Firebolt · Post by **Firebolt** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:24 am

I know this thread is about SSB Goku > SSB Vegito, but I wanted to give my comments about SSB Vegeta > UI Omen Goku (110 and 116).

In my personal view, the reason why Belmond was concerned about Vegeta's Final Flash was that in terms of raw power, UI Omen is way weaker than say, SSG. Kefla commented that UI Omen Goku's attacks were pathetic (I don't remember the actual quote) but she never said anything of the sort to SSB or even SSG Goku. So we can conclude that UI Omen Goku (at least in episode 110 and 116) is physically weaker than SSG Goku. This also explains why UI Omen Goku was able to hit Jiren, but not damage him whatsoever.

Muten Roshi also comments in episode 110 "His energy seems frighteningly calm" but he and everyone else never comments on his strength, except for Piccolo who says Goku's strikes get heavier and sharper as he continues to fight, but that doesn't mean he was stronger than he was in SSB, it just means that he's evolving.

So I don't think that it's fair to compare UI Omen Goku (110 and 116) to Vegeta's Final Flash, SSBKK X20 Goku and SSB Evolution Vegeta, since they are completely different. One focuses on speed and reflexes, while the others have way more power, but their reflexes and battle instincts aren't even close.

So I guess if UI Omen Goku (110 and 116, no time limit) fought SSB Evolution Vegeta, even though Vegeta is way stronger, Goku would eventually find an opening and beat Vegeta. That's just a guess though.

OMG am i becoming a debater now?

sintzu · Post by **sintzu** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:32 am

The anime just does what it wants without a second thought so we'll have to see how Blue Goku does in the manga to know for sure.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:34 am

Firebolt wrote:I know this thread is about SSB Goku > SSB Vegito, but I wanted to give my comments about SSB Vegeta > UI Omen Goku (110 and 116).

In my personal view, the reason why Belmond was concerned about Vegeta's Final Flash was that in terms of raw power, UI Omen is way weaker than say, SSG. Kefla commented that UI Omen Goku's attacks were pathetic (I don't remember the actual quote) but she never said anything of the sort to SSB or even SSG Goku. So we can conclude that UI Omen Goku (at least in episode 110 and 116) is physically weaker than SSG Goku. This also explains why UI Omen Goku was able to hit Jiren, but not damage him whatsoever.

Muten Roshi also comments in episode 110 "His energy seems frighteningly calm" but he and everyone else never comments on his strength, except for Piccolo who says Goku's strikes get heavier and sharper as he continues to fight, but that doesn't mean he was stronger than he was in SSB, it just means that he's evolving.

So I don't think that it's fair to compare UI Omen Goku (110 and 116) to Vegeta's Final Flash, SSBKK X20 Goku and SSB Evolution Vegeta, since they are completely different. One focuses on speed and reflexes, while the others have way more power, but their reflexes and battle instincts aren't even close.

So I guess if UI Omen Goku (110 and 116, no time limit) fought SSB Evolution Vegeta, even though Vegeta is way stronger, Goku would eventually find an opening and beat Vegeta. That's just a guess though.

OMG am i becoming a debater now?

Not trying to ruin your fun, but it's been stated and shown that Goku's Ultra Instinct Form powers up Goku as well, and makes him far stronger. Kefla even comments that Goku powered up. Kefla withstood Goku's attacks because of her high durability but then Goku started hurting her badly. Another point to say is that Jiren senses Goku's Ki as Ultra Instinct and concludes he got stronger, yet SsjB Goku barely made him get attracted him.

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DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:35 am

sintzu wrote:The anime just does what it wants without a second thought so we'll have to see how Blue Goku does in the manga to know for sure.

Anime Wise, how Do you view the situation? And Do you agree or not with the explanation?

sintzu · Post by **sintzu** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:55 am

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Anime Wise, how Do you view the situation ?

Do you agree or not with the explanation?

I think he is stronger but also could be weaker depending on the situation he's in and who's writing the episode. The same SsjB who's fighting Jiren was held off for a bit by the likes of Krillin. We've seen 17 go from Cell arc pre-ROSAT Ssj1 to the strongest form of SsjB from protecting animals.

I didn't read it because there's no sense in trying to explain it in-universe at this point. The writers are just doing whatever because of their lack of understanding of the source material or just not caring about it and the viewers.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:01 pm

sintzu wrote:The same SsjB who's fighting Jiren was held off for a bit by the likes of Krillin.

Unlike the current situation though Krillin combating with SsjB Goku is not even possible in the slightest given it's contradicted based on his performance in the start of the Tournament Of Power which places him far below even Base Goku. Jiren here was stated to have increased his power beyond anything from before and yet Goku succeeded in combating Jiren in SsjB. It isn't the "same SsjB" since Goku is arguably getting stronger throughout the Tournament

sintzu wrote:We've seen 17 go from Cell arc pre-ROSAT Ssj1 to the strongest form of SsjB from protecting animals.

Android 17 stated that he trained. Although the type of training is unknown, he still stated he trained so much that Dende had to say he'd be a big trouble to everyone including Goku and Vegeta if he was a villain

sintzu wrote:I didn't read it because there's no sense in trying to explain it in-universe at this point. The writers are just doing whatever because of their lack of understanding of the source material or just not caring about it and the viewers.

I don't mind you not reading it. But anyways, do you believe current Goku > Vegito from future trunks Arc? That is] the main issue here

sintzu · Post by **sintzu** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:07 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Do you believe current Goku > Vegito from future trunks Arc? That is] the main issue here

Yes, by far. Hopefully that changes in the manga.

Firebolt · Post by **Firebolt** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:12 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Firebolt wrote: *Super long post*
Not trying to ruin your fun, but it's been stated and shown that Goku's Ultra Instinct Form powers up Goku as well, and makes him far stronger. Kefla even comments that Goku powered up. Kefla withstood Goku's attacks because of her high durability but then Goku started hurting her badly. Another point to say is that Jiren senses Goku's Ki as Ultra Instinct and concludes he got stronger, yet SsjB Goku barely made him get attracted him.

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Well I guess it depends on how you interpret it.

• Jiren stopping his meditation could easily be because of him feeling Ultra Instinct Goku's heat or calm energy, not because of him sensing a power stronger than SSB. He could have felt Goku's heat and thought 'He's reached Ultra Instinct again, I better stop meditating or he might eliminate Toppo and Dyspo'/i].
• Sure Kefla may have said that Goku powered up, but Kale and Caulifla can't sense power levels anyway, so we shouldn't take her statements as fact.
• Goku never seriously injured Kelfa, dunno where you're getting that from. She only couldn't keep up with Goku's reflexes and speed, Like Whis said, Goku's attacks at the moment were inefective.

But I guess you're right overall, it's just my personal view that UI is more focused on battle instinct and reflexes than pure power.

Helios518 · Post by **Helios518** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:43 pm

Not really, call me crazy if you like, but I doubt Current SSJB Goku is anymore than a few times FT Arc SSJB. I just chalk it up to the writers being inconsistent.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:01 pm

sintzu wrote:
DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Do you believe current Goku > Vegito from future trunks Arc? That is] the main issue here
Yes, by far. Hopefully that changes in the manga.

Agreed

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:03 pm

Helios518 wrote:Not really, call me crazy if you like, but I doubt Current SSJB Goku is anymore than a few times FT Arc SSJB. I just chalk it up to the writers being inconsistent.

It was never contradicted though. Goku is seen to power up each time, and not once has it been argued against or shown to be wrong in the show. It would certainly qualify as an inconsistency if it was debunked in the later episodes but nothing of such sort has occurred but quite the opposite. Future Trunks arc Goku at the end of it overpowered Merged Zamasu prior to becoming Mutated. That's pretty much a notable feat although not Vegito's level indeed.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:10 pm

Firebolt wrote:• Jiren stopping his meditation could easily be because of him feeling Ultra Instinct Goku's heat or calm energy, not because of him sensing a power stronger than SSB. He could have felt Goku's heat and thought 'He's reached Ultra Instinct again, I better stop meditating or he might eliminate Toppo and Dyspo'

That's honestly speculation. Goku was able to scratch and hurt Jiren while as a SsjB he failed to do any of that. Having a Calm Ki doesn't mean he's weaker, it means his Ki is under full control and is not being leaked at a crazy level.

Firebolt wrote:• Sure Kefla may have said that Goku powered up, but Kale and Caulifla can't sense power levels anyway, so we shouldn't take her statements as fact.

Wrong Both Caulifla and Kale can sense Ki. Caulifla was able to sense Kale's power and she even sensed Jiren and Goku while fighting together. Also Kefla measured Goku's strength mainly from the attacks she felt from Goku, so she doesn't need to concentrate and sense him in any way

Firebolt wrote:• Goku never seriously injured Kelfa, dunno where you're getting that from. She only couldn't keep up with Goku's reflexes and speed, Like Whis said, Goku's attacks at the moment were inefective.

Kefla was getting raped by Goku after he got used to Ultra Instinct and powered up even more. Whis saying his attacks are ineffective means they aren't strong enough to put her down otherwise that would be contradicting since she directly states "impossible" and gets worried meaning Goku's Power surpassed her expectations and overpowered her for the time being

Firebolt wrote:But I guess you're right overall, it's just my personal view that UI is more focused on battle instinct and reflexes than pure power.

Ok

Helios518 · Post by **Helios518** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:20 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:
Helios518 wrote:Not really, call me crazy if you like, but I doubt Current SSJB Goku is anymore than a few times FT Arc SSJB. I just chalk it up to the writers being inconsistent.
1) It was never contradicted though. 2) Goku is seen to power up each time, and not once has it been argued against or shown to be wrong in the show. It would certainly qualify as an inconsistency if it was debunked in the later episodes but nothing of such sort has occurred but quite the opposite. 3) Future Trunks arc Goku at the end of it overpowered Merged Zamasu prior to becoming Mutated. That's pretty much a notable feat although not Vegito's level indeed.

1) What I said isn't contradicted either.

2) The only times Goku or Vegeta are outright said to increase in power is either by transforming or a temporary amp (anger boost).

3) That's an anomaly because Goku accomplished a feat that took the combined power of SSJB Vegeta (who's stronger than SSJB Goku at this time) and SSJRage Trunks (equal to SSJB Goku) to do.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Helios518 wrote:1) What I said isn't contradicted either.

Yes it is. It is shown on multiple occasions that they got stronger. If It was a single occasion and barely supported then it is an inconsistency. If it is supported and shown multiple times then it isn't an inconsistency

Helios518 wrote:2) The only times Goku or Vegeta are outright said to increase in power is either by transforming or a temporary amp (anger boost).

So I suppose they have to comment loudly saying "I got stronger!" To prove they got stronger? Feats and Other factual statements are more than enough to prove they got stronger. Examples are shown in my post. I don't believe you even read it, so go ahead

Helios518 wrote:3) That's an anomaly because Goku accomplished a feat that took the combined power of SSJB Vegeta (who's stronger than SSJB Goku at this time) and SSJRage Trunks (equal to SSJB Goku) to do.

Goku simply got stronger and then right on went directly to hit Merged Zamasu and overpowered him not just with the Kamehameha struggle, but brute-wise. It was never said that this is wrong. Goku simply with anger got stronger and nothing suggests it was temporary as afterwards he still destroyed Merged Zamasu. Similar to how Goku Black got stronger with Anger and it wasn't temporary, similar case. Nothing diffrenciates the two issues and it's supported overall.

Marlowe89 · Post by **Marlowe89** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:42 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:Later on Episode 122, Vegeta states that the Jiren on Episode 122 is the strongest energy he has ever encountered. This would mean the energy Vegeta is feeling surpasses that of the Previous Ultra Instinct Goku and reconfirms our point about it being above Merged Zamasu and Infinite Zamasu by far. Yet SsjB Matches Jiren quite well.

Vegeta made Jiren wet himself when Vegeta managed to hit Jiren. Despite Goku having already hit Jiren in Ultra Instinct, nothing of such sort has ever been shown to us. Vegeta basically affected Jiren far more than Goku did and made him worry a lot despite having fought Ultra Instinct Goku Prior. Vegeta even trade blows at Jiren and pushes him.

This is where your argument breaks down because it ignores several key pieces of dialogue in Episode 122. Vegeta only managed to land a hit on Jiren because he studied Jiren's movements, not because Vegeta suddenly became stronger than he was just moments prior when everyone was getting curbstomped -- we're talking about an arc that has consistently placed strong emphasis on skill and finesse just as much as it has accentuated raw strength. You mention Belmod acting surprised, but Khai remains calm throughout the fight and realizes that Jiren isn't remotely serious.

Moreover, in the same episode, Vegeta specifically mentions that Jiren wasn't displaying the same amount of strength he witnessed him use against Goku, which means that Jiren's actual power has been fluctuating wildly throughout the entirety of the arc; it's not gradually becoming higher or anything like that because we know for an absolute fact that he sometimes suppresses his ki more than in a previous moment. Even if this wasn't the case, your contention rests more on Merged Zamasu's strength than Vegito Blue's.

Thus, the idea that Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta is currently stronger than Vegito Blue is effectively rendered inconclusive, since your measuring stick in this argument constantly moves up and down at the drop of a hat. Vegeta (and later Goku) fighting evenly against a heavily suppressed Jiren was simply a result of growing more accustomed to Jiren's movements, which surprised the latter. To claim that there's anything more to it than that is reading far too heavily into the situation.

Helios518 · Post by **Helios518** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:45 pm

DB▪Magnum-Expert wrote:

1. Show me all the times they said Goku and Vegeta has gotten stronger during the ToP without referring to transformations and amps.

2. This is the one time that feats fall flat to character statements. It's like saying if Superman fought Darkseid and gets stomped by him but then in the same issue, Superman rematches Darkseid in the same circumstances as before but this time, Supes stomps Darkseid. That would be inconsistent unless they state that Supes gotten stronger since then through something.

3. Or it's simply an inconsistency. Goku getting an anger boost? That wasn't established at all. Occam Razor would suggest answer is that the power scaling is inconsistent as oppose to it characters having unmentioned power ups.

DB▪Magnum-Expert · Post by **DB▪Magnum-Expert** » Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:34 pm

Helios518 wrote:1. Show me all the times they said Goku and Vegeta has gotten stronger during the ToP without referring to transformations and amps.

Not necessarily statements, but Also feats. I'll show you and replace most of my post because you haven't read anything

On Episode 122, Vegeta states that the Jiren on Episode 122 is the strongest energy he has ever encountered. This would mean the energy Vegeta is feeling surpasses that of the Previous Ultra Instinct Goku and reconfirms our point about it being above Merged Zamasu and Infinite Zamasu by far. Yet SsjB Matches Jiren quite well.

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