Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

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Sweettre15
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Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Sweettre15 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:55 pm

So I’ve been looking at one of my favorite DBZ fights again and that’s Goku vs Cell..

Image

For two reasons

1. I almost enjoy this fight more than the Gohan/Cell fight....ALMOST due to the dynamic of the fight where they start out toying with each other for sport and the fight crescendos until a battle of wills where they fight until one of them can no longer keep up

2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it. Something which, I no longer agree with based on my recent rewatches of the series.

So I’d like for guys to rewatch this fight (if you don’t remember it well enough) and tell me what of you think of it overall and why you think that theory holds water in parts of the DB fandom.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 9:36 pm

2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it.
Anyone should have realized this was BS when Goku was getting beaten to death by one of small minions that Cell casually shat out.
So I’d like for guys to rewatch this fight (if you don’t remember it well enough) and tell me what of you think of it overall and why you think that theory holds water in parts of the DB fandom.
Because Goku has a lot of fanboys. Same reason that many to this day believe that he could have beaten Super Buu when he directly stated that he would get killed if he tried to fight him.

I think the more notable misconception about the fight is the idea that Cell was at full power during it. This one is actually understandable. He powers up three times later when he fights Gohan, but it's easy to forget about those because nothing comes of them (e.g., he doesn't lose to a foe, power up, and then beat them). They're relegated to dialogue instead of visuals. And he certainly acts like he was trying against Goku.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Sweettre15 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:08 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it.
Anyone should have realized this was BS when Goku was getting beaten to death by one of small minions that Cell casually shat out.
So I’d like for guys to rewatch this fight (if you don’t remember it well enough) and tell me what of you think of it overall and why you think that theory holds water in parts of the DB fandom.
Because Goku has a lot of fanboys. Same reason that many to this day believe that he could have beaten Super Buu when he directly stated that he would get killed if he tried to fight him.

I think the more notable misconception about the fight is the idea that Cell was at full power during it. This one is actually understandable. He powers up three times later when he fights Gohan, but it's easy to forget about those because nothing comes of them (e.g., he doesn't lose to a foe, power up, and then beat them). They're relegated to dialogue instead of visuals. And he certainly acts like he was trying against Goku.
Do you also think that other contributing factors to this could have been people taking Gohan’s commentary during the Goku vs Cell fight more to heart than Goku’s own words because of his somewhat cheerful demeanor when he accepted his loss to Cell instead of getting a Senzu bean and continuing the fight?

Hell when Goku went to the Cell games arena after training and told his friends that Cell would defeat him if they fought, he said it in a cheerful manner and acted like nothing was wrong....much to the confusion of the other characters

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by RandomGuy96 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:34 pm

Sweettre15 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it.
Anyone should have realized this was BS when Goku was getting beaten to death by one of small minions that Cell casually shat out.
So I’d like for guys to rewatch this fight (if you don’t remember it well enough) and tell me what of you think of it overall and why you think that theory holds water in parts of the DB fandom.
Because Goku has a lot of fanboys. Same reason that many to this day believe that he could have beaten Super Buu when he directly stated that he would get killed if he tried to fight him.

I think the more notable misconception about the fight is the idea that Cell was at full power during it. This one is actually understandable. He powers up three times later when he fights Gohan, but it's easy to forget about those because nothing comes of them (e.g., he doesn't lose to a foe, power up, and then beat them). They're relegated to dialogue instead of visuals. And he certainly acts like he was trying against Goku.
Do you also think that other contributing factors to this could have been people taking Gohan’s commentary during the Goku vs Cell fight more to heart than Goku’s own words because of his somewhat cheerful demeanor when he accepted his loss to Cell instead of getting a Senzu bean and continuing the fight?

Hell when Goku went to the Cell games arena after training and told his friends that Cell would defeat him if they fought, he said it in a cheerful manner and acted like nothing was wrong....much to the confusion of the other characters
That could be a factor. Gohan is a ten year old who thinks his dad is Superman and can't ever lose, this is shown to be at odds with reality as Goku admits he's weaker than Cell and gets beaten up by a Cell Junior.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Sweettre15 » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:50 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sweettre15 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
Do you also think that other contributing factors to this could have been people taking Gohan’s commentary during the Goku vs Cell fight more to heart than Goku’s own words because of his somewhat cheerful demeanor when he accepted his loss to Cell instead of getting a Senzu bean and continuing the fight?

Hell when Goku went to the Cell games arena after training and told his friends that Cell would defeat him if they fought, he said it in a cheerful manner and acted like nothing was wrong....much to the confusion of the other characters
That could be a factor. Gohan is a ten year old who thinks his dad is Superman and can't ever lose, this is shown to be at odds with reality as Goku admits he's weaker than Cell and gets beaten up by a Cell Junior.
To be fair when it comes to the Cell Jr, Goku was already drained from the Cell fight when they came after him seeing as how Cell took the Senzu beans right as he tried to regenerate.

Hence why despite Vegeta and Trunks faring much worse against Cell than he did, they were the two surviving against the Cell jrs.

That said....Yes Goku did tell Gohan that the misconception of Goku holding back was caused by Gohan having a higher power level than him and unintentionally comparing them.

Another comment, I don’t think certain fans took Goku serious when he said.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by OhHiRenan » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:18 am

I actually vastly prefer Goku vs Cell to Gohan vs Cell. It’s one of the best fights in the entire series as far as choreography goes. Gohan v Cell has a nice emotional center for Gohan, but it’s not as engaging visually.

As for your second point, I reread the fight and Goku was very much giving it his all. There’s no way he could have defeated Cell. He likely could have worn him down a bit if he opted to eat a Senzu and jump back in, but Cell would have killed him sooner or later. The story also makes a point to express how unimpressed Gohan is with his dad’s power. From a narrative and thematic standpoint, there’s no logical reason for Goku having held back all along. He tried his best and couldn’t win.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Desassina » Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:27 am

Perhaps Goku could have attempted the Super Kaioken against Cell, but chose not to because he didn't want him to learn it, and change the tides of even Gohan's battle. Remember that Goku's full power was still SSJ at the time, but without the restless feeling to endure maybe Kaioken, because the blue one is supposed to represent calm as well.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:56 pm

Goku vs Cell, what a fight. Goku vs Freeza on Namek is my favorite but this is a very close 2nd...or is Goku's fight with Vegeta 2nd ? Goku vs Piccolo is also up there... either way, all 4 fights are the best DB has to offer. I also think this was better than Gohan's as both parties were fighting equally compared to the one sided fight Gohan's was. After seeing Goku's fights throughout the story, there is a sense of him possibly not taking it seriously but when Cell powers up against Ssj2 Gohan you can see that Cell was also not going all out so I believe Goku when he said he gave it his all. I do however think Goku slowed down his training once he saw what Gohan could do so if not for that I think Goku would have figured out a way to win. Thinking about those fights makes me want to re-watch the whole show (DB/Kai) again as I've yet to see another anime capture the sense of excitement and brutality that those 2 had. :clap:
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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:15 pm

Gohan vs Cell is arguably the most overrated fight in the franchise (its not bad though)

Goku vs Cell >>> Gohan vs Cell, especially in terms of choreography and intensity.
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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by ricky84 » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:18 pm

Come to think of it, Goku has plently of underrated fights against characters he doesn't beat. LIke Goku vs Toppo or Goku vs Android 19.
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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by sintzu » Thu Aug 23, 2018 5:45 pm

ricky84 wrote:Gohan vs Cell is arguably the most overrated fight in the franchise (its not bad though).
I think when fans (not all) say Gohan's fight is up there with the best they're thinking about the father son kamehameha (that's up there in terms of best moments), not the actual fight as despite it being good, I don't think it's THAT good.
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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Apslup » Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:17 pm

Sweettre15 wrote:1. I almost enjoy this fight more than the Gohan/Cell fight....ALMOST due to the dynamic of the fight where they start out toying with each other for sport and the fight crescendos until a battle of wills where they fight until one of them can no longer keep up.
I mean I liked Goku vs Cell but it was very anti-climatic and it was kind of a dick move In-Universe for Goku to just give up and make Gohan pick up the slack. I will always much prefer Gohan vs Cell due to the epic and emotional moments that really got to me first time watching it (Gohan struggling at he beginning, #16's failed sacrifice, Gohan going SSJ2, Gohan killing the Cell Jrs, Gohan punching #18 out of Cell, Goku sacrificing himself to save everyone, Cell returning in his Perfect Form and killing Trunks and the Father-Son Kamehameha with Vegeta blasting Cell to give Gohan the opportunity to finish the job).
Sweettre15 wrote: 2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it. Something which, I no longer agree with based on my recent rewatches of the series.
While yes Goku wasn't taking the fight seriously at all he was doing so because he thought that Gohan was the only person who can beat Cell by tapping into his latent power through his Rage Boost, which is true in my eyes since I still think that none of the Z Fighters apart from SSJ2 Gohan could've defeated Cell (especially since all of the Z Fighters except SSJ2 Gohan were Outclassed by the Cell Jrs).

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by KBABZ » Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:59 pm

Apslup summed it up pretty well. Goku IS giving it his all, but he's not stressed about it at all because he's banking on Gohan's hidden power getting him the rest of the way to SS2. He also could not tell that Cell wasn't giving it 100% during his fight either.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by The Monkey King » Sun Sep 09, 2018 7:23 am

From a purely action/choreography standpoint the manga version of this fight is actually rather dull imo

Now the anime version on the other hand:

Image

Easily one of my favourite fights in the entire franchise

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by Ssjcell » Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:43 pm

The Monkey King wrote:From a purely action/choreography standpoint the manga version of this fight is actually rather dull imo

Now the anime version on the other hand:

Image

Easily one of my favourite fights in the entire franchise
Yeah technique wise it was supurb a fun watch and Goku was pretty much perfect considering that the was such a power mismatch.

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Re: Regarding the Goku vs Cell fight in DBZ...

Post by 90sDBZ » Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:31 pm

Sweettre15 wrote:So I’ve been looking at one of my favorite DBZ fights again and that’s Goku vs Cell..

Image

For two reasons

1. I almost enjoy this fight more than the Gohan/Cell fight....ALMOST due to the dynamic of the fight where they start out toying with each other for sport and the fight crescendos until a battle of wills where they fight until one of them can no longer keep up

2. There’s this weirdly popular theory, that I once fell for, still circling around DBZ fandom circles that Goku wasn’t taking the fight as seriously as he should have been and could have won the fight instead of having Gohan do it. Something which, I no longer agree with based on my recent rewatches of the series.

So I’d like for guys to rewatch this fight (if you don’t remember it well enough) and tell me what of you think of it overall and why you think that theory holds water in parts of the DB fandom.
I agree it's a fantastic fight from start to finish. I've also heard that theory about Goku holding back and don't agree with it, although the Pikkon filler certainly gives it more weight and would make more sense if it where true.

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