Dragon Box Audio Vs. Broadcast Audio — How is there even an argument?

[JohnnyCashKami]

On another website there was a little feud between one side saying the muffled Dragon Box Audio was better and then the other praising the Broadcast Audio. Seriously, the Dragon Box Audio is horribly muffled (except the Movies Box) and once anyone listens to the TV audio it becomes pretty darn crystal clear how much better the BA is. I don't even care all that much about it but if someone works in the music industry and says the DVD audio is the superior one.. something ain't right.

The difference between the two is like day and night.

Here's a sample that compares the two @ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7p7X1wd8uNc

[Forte224]

The only thing I have against the broadcast audio is if you're listening to it with headphones, there's this annoying buzzing sound that sort of hums in the background sometimes (often) when characters talk.

That said, yeah I doubt too many people will argue that the muffled DBox audio is better. It can only really be chalked up to a purist thing I suppose or whatever. That broadcast audio sounds so nice. If only we had it for the whole series. You know, like nearly every other show ever has by default.

[Robo4900]

The only thing I have against the broadcast audio is if you're listening to it with headphones, there's this annoying buzzing sound that sort of hums in the background sometimes (often) when characters talk.

Filtering can cut it back by quite a lot, and if we can get superior sources(As we have done for Z episodes 51 and 95), it'll be totally gone.

That said, yeah I doubt too many people will argue that the muffled DBox audio is better. It can only really be chalked up to a purist thing I suppose or whatever. That broadcast audio sounds so nice. If only we had it for the whole series. You know, like nearly every other show ever has by default.

Really, there's no contest; broadcast audio is just strictly better. Even in aspects that the broadcast audio is flawed, various forms of filtering combined with the fact multiple sources -- including the optical -- can be combined in various ways, gives a lot of options to minimise, maybe even remove, the flaws that some seem to nitpick about.
And also, we do have it for the whole Z series, it's just not publicly available(Well... Certain piracy sites have leaked compressed lossy copies of the lesser sources, but...). Most of DB has yet to be attained, though about 20 episodes have been gathered from various sources so far, all of which I believe have been passed onto Funimation. GT is interesting, since Toei still has the master audio, and in fact Funimation may also have a copy of it that they haven't been aware of thus far.

[JohnnyCashKami]

Really, there's no contest; broadcast audio is just strictly better. Even in aspects that the broadcast audio is flawed, various forms of filtering combined with the fact multiple sources -- including the optical -- can be combined in various ways, gives a lot of options to minimise, maybe even remove, the flaws that some seem to nitpick about.

True, even with the flaws of compressed BA it's still better than the DBox muffled audio. The DBox audio makes it sound like a 50 or 60's show.

And also, we do have it for the whole Z series, it's just not publicly available(Well... Certain piracy sites have leaked compressed lossy copies of the lesser sources, but...). Most of DB has yet to be attained, though about 20 episodes have been gathered from various sources so far, all of which I believe have been passed onto Funimation. GT is interesting, since Toei still has the master audio, and in fact Funimation may also have a copy of it that they haven't been aware of thus far.

As time passes, more BA audios of DB are shared publicly and eventually Z in better condition, too. I just don't see the point for a few 'elite' to have the audios while the majority can't, everyone will in time get their hands on it if they want. Whether legally or otherwise.

Hopefully, FUNimation is given the authorization to use the BAs on future Dragon Ball home releases so we can have official products with it.

[Vorige Waffe]

Even shows from the 50s and 60s can have better audio than the crap-tastic optical track audio from Dragon Boxes. It's just a matter of how well materials are stored over time. I also doubt Funimation will ever have permission to release the BA before it's made officially available in Japan by Toei first. Hopefully with their Blu-ray remaster of the movies means Toei will be doing a new remaster of the series proper, and uses the BA. In turn, that might mean Funimation will be given a chance to use it on yet another inevitable re-release.

Also, if someone says they're in the "music industry" and thinks the optical track sounds better, it's safe to say they may very well be lying about their job.

Spoiler:

Then again, it's hard to take anyone seriously these days--besides a musician or producer that has actual decades of experience--in an industry that's absolutely cratered, but that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Damned]

Some people on Youtube prefer the optical track audio because they feel it makes Dragon Ball sound more like an old school martial arts movie.

And also, we do have it for the whole Z series

You guys found the missing 10 minutes on episode 218?

Most of DB has yet to be attained, though about 20 episodes have been gathered from various sources so far

So, some progress has been made on that front. Would you happen to remember which new episodes have been obtained? I know Chris has 1-7 and 153 already.

Hopefully, FUNimation is given the authorization to use the BAs on future Dragon Ball home releases so we can have official products with it.

I can't imagine any reason, besides reverse importation, why they would have an issue with it. It's not like with the Team Four Star audio for Kai Final Chapters; this is Toei's own work.

Hopefully with their Blu-ray remaster of the movies means Toei will be doing a new remaster of the series proper, and uses the BA.

Seeing as they have refused the audio, I'm guessing they are content with the optical audio.

[Robo4900]

You guys found the missing 10 minutes on episode 218?

Some would say it doesn't technically count as broadcast audio because they're nitpickers who want to trash the work done to retrieve it or some nonsense like that, but yes, we have a lower-quality(Noiser, slightly weaker highs IIRC) copy of 218 that can fill the gap seamlessly if competently filtered. We also filled a small gap in an episode, I believe 226 or something, of the first minute or so of the recap at the beginning. And I believe that's every gap in Z covered.

So, some progress has been made on that front. Would you happen to remember which new episodes have been obtained? I know Chris has 1-7 and 153 already.

Some guy online put up his personal recordings of episodes 25, 26, 27, 29, 40, and 41 for all to see/hear. I believe he has more that he's put up or is currently working to put up.

I can't imagine any reason, besides reverse importation, why they would have an issue with it. It's not like with the Team Four Star audio for Kai Final Chapters; this is Toei's own work.

Indeed.
I've never got the "but funi won't get permission" nonsense, because Toei have never cared about higher-quality releases in foreign countries before. Taiwan has better audio on their GT DVDs than Japan, Funimation put out the Level Blu-Rays without a problem, and those had rather incredible video, The Final Chapters is international-only and contains many episodes not available in the Japanese equivalent... And then there's the matter of Funi's HD masters of the movies, which were superior to the Dragon Boxes when watched in HD, and generally were a pretty good HD master, and only became passé when the new Toei HD master appeared, which actually seems to use the optical audio instead of the cinetape masters they used on the Dragon Box and Laserdiscs...

At this point, I've given up trying to call people out on the "but permission" nonsense. Toei very clearly don't care what foreign companies are up to, and likely aren't even aware of the situation regarding their own audio masters, given the way the HD movies and the GT Dragon Box were handled.

Seeing as they have refused the audio, I'm guessing they are content with the optical audio.

Funny thing... People throw around "They refused the audio"... Probably just some Toei rep who had no idea what they were doing just gave a nothing answer. Not like you can just email the head of Toei Japan, members of the public typically have to just talk to the contact addresses, which deal with any kinds of emails Toei would be sent. Some fan suddenly emails the company telling them about TV recordings from 30 years ago? Whatever, our masters of this show are just fine, thank you very much...

[JohnnyCashKami]

Some guy online put up his personal recordings of episodes 25, 26, 27, 29, 40, and 41 for all to see/hear. I believe he has more that he's put up or is currently working to put up.

Two others went up recently.

I've never got the "but funi won't get permission" nonsense

TOEI is the parent company, the company that made the original Japanese audio. They also obviously made the animated series itself so the fact that FUNimation obtained the BA audio illegally is a matter that they'll likely need to speak with TOEI if they can use it or not.

because Toei have never cared about higher-quality releases in foreign countries before.

TOEI gave the foreign anime distros a source to work with and if that ended up being visually superior, there wasn't anything TOEI could do about. Besides, country-based releases only include a country's dub and the original (muffled) Japanese audio so it's not as if it can be sold in multiple countries (even in multiple countries where Portuguese, Spanish, French and English are spoken they have their own differences and sometimes they don't like a dub due to the accent/vocabulary or etc).

Taiwan has better audio on their GT DVDs than Japan

Don't want to discredit nor disrespect Taiwan, but America is a far more popular country and where things matter more than in Taiwan. There's nothing wrong being an unpopular, kept out of the spotlight country. In fact, that can actually be for the better.

Funimation put out the Level Blu-Rays without a problem

And it was canceled. Those episodes on Blu-ray/Digital were amazing though but it didn't really get past the Saiyan arc (like the UUE release).

The Final Chapters is international-only and contains many episodes not available in the Japanese equivalent

Kai TFC (aka Majin Boo Hen) was originally made for the international market. To be honest, the fact that the international version has more episode doesn't make TFC any better, it's still a mediocre product.

Funi's HD masters of the movies

That was a mixed-shit-bag release and to make matters worse, the Japanese audio was horrible. FUNimation only remastered Dragon Ball properly about thrice; DBZ: UUE (DVD), DBZ: Level 1.1/1.2 (Blu-ray) and DB: HD Movies 1, 3, 4 (Digital/On Blu-ray by Zima).

[Damned]

the new Toei HD master appeared, which actually seems to use the optical audio instead of the cinetape masters they used on the Dragon Box and Laserdiscs...

I'm really hoping that was just because they want to have a selling point for the Blu-ray release. Clearly they are aware the cinetapes exist for the movies and I'm sure they have a record of what they have in their vault. If the Blu-ray release still uses the optical audio, that will be both really disappointing and really stupid at the same time.

[Robo4900]

TOEI is the parent company, the company that made the original Japanese audio. They also obviously made the animated series itself so the fact that FUNimation obtained the BA audio illegally is a matter that they'll likely need to speak with TOEI if they can use it or not.

Maybe. I don't think it would be an issue if this is the case, but maybe.
But even so, Toei have had a consistent behaviour that indicates they wouldn't care in the slightest about this. So even if there are concerns about the fact this audio comes from off-air domestic recordings, I'm not sure it'd be worth the effort of bothering Toei about. As long as the release sells well, and there's no reason someone else couldn't sue them for it or something, and it doesn't harm the brand, Toei would have no reason to intervene.

TOEI gave the foreign anime distros a source to work with and if that ended up being visually superior, there wasn't anything TOEI could do about. Besides, country-based releases only include a country's dub and the original (muffled) Japanese audio so it's not as if it can be sold in multiple countries (even in multiple countries where Portuguese, Spanish, French and English are spoken they have their own differences and sometimes they don't like a dub due to the accent/vocabulary or etc).
[...]
Kai TFC (aka Majin Boo Hen) was originally made for the international market. To be honest, the fact that the international version has more episode doesn't make TFC any better, it's still a mediocre product.

... Okay, and?

And it was canceled. Those episodes on Blu-ray/Digital were amazing though but it didn't really get past the Saiyan arc (like the UUE release).

If Toei took issue with it, Level 1.1 would have never hit store shelves. The Levels were cancelled due to poor sales.

That was a mixed-shit-bag release and to make matters worse, the Japanese audio was horrible. FUNimation only remastered Dragon Ball properly about thrice; DBZ: UUE (DVD), DBZ: Level 1.1/1.2 (Blu-ray) and DB: HD Movies 1, 3, 4 (Digital/On Blu-ray by Zima).

UUE was not a remaster.
And no, the HD Z movies were fine. They get a bad rep because people associate it with the other Z releases that came out at that same time, and the high contrast look does definitely make them inferior to the new Toei HD masters, but they're pretty solid, and assuming you watch in HD, they are superior to the Dragon Box movies release. The poor audio is an issue, I guess, but it's not like that's unique to that release; the audio was only ever good on the movies DBox, and the original Funi single of Z movie 13.

I'm really hoping that was just because they want to have a selling point for the Blu-ray release. Clearly they are aware the cinetapes exist for the movies and I'm sure they have a record of what they have in their vault. If the Blu-ray release still uses the optical audio, that will be both really disappointing and really stupid at the same time.

If it's optical on the stream, there's a high chance it'll be optical on the Blu-Ray. Who knows, they might fix it, and by a similar token, they might fix the tinting in some of the movies. Only time will tell. But I wouldn't hold my breath about it.

[crabshank1]

Maybe slightly off topic, but I analysed the frequencies in the Big Box audio files using Audacity and Excel, compared them to the normal and broadcast audios and came up with some equalizer settings to use in EqualizerAPO to make both match the Big Box. Anyone wanna try?

Broadcast Audio --> Big Box:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 7261630596 (Averaged every 25 Hz values)

Optical audio --> Big Box:
Averaged every 4 Hz values (Recommended): http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 1162756498
Averaged every 11 Hz values: http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?fi ... 6659067992

[AzuraRacon]

TOEI is the parent company, the company that made the original Japanese audio. They also obviously made the animated series itself so the fact that FUNimation obtained the BA audio illegally is a matter that they'll likely need to speak with TOEI if they can use it or not

Okay so, I’m really sorry for Necroing this topic so hard, but I’m genuinely curious because I’ve heard this argument before in relation to the BA situation

How exactly would them obtaining this audio be illegal?

As far as I can tell it wouldn’t be any different than, say, someone sending the BBC a VHS recording of a missing Doctor Who serial

Is the difference the fact that they likely wouldn’t be shipped the physical tapes? Because otherwise this doesn’t sound different from any other lost media recovery situation

[HakkaiBills93]

TOEI is the parent company, the company that made the original Japanese audio. They also obviously made the animated series itself so the fact that FUNimation obtained the BA audio illegally is a matter that they'll likely need to speak with TOEI if they can use it or not

Okay so, I’m really sorry for Necroing this topic so hard, but I’m genuinely curious because I’ve heard this argument before in relation to the BA situation

How exactly would them obtaining this audio be illegal?

As far as I can tell it wouldn’t be any different than, say, someone sending the BBC a VHS recording of a missing Doctor Who serial

Is the difference the fact that they likely wouldn’t be shipped the physical tapes? Because otherwise this doesn’t sound different from any other lost media recovery situation

No matter how they get videos or audios, any release worldwide can't be done without Toei approval, so if any company want to use BA, they should ask Toei if they can and negociate the use: so 2 case:
- Toei will say "you used THIS footage and THIS audios" and company only have to use it
- Toei don't care and say yes
BUT No companies will handle the cost and time to remaster audio and the 30th release even if countless people allways told me i was wrong about that, is an example that companies only want money and 100% don"t care about their fans, Funimation already prove it with 16/9 against everyone opinions and now with this commercial joke they dare to call "collectible" , they keep on doing it, in an ideal situation, they would have understood that releasing shit will only make them failed but who can blame them, after all , jerks people buy the release no matter the shit inside.

The day where those biggest human jerks will understand that companies have to seduce their custumers and not opposite , things could have change but now it's the reverse situations, i only see pigeon and sheep that buy the things no matter how crappy it is...this kind of stupidity deserve that they should kill themselves useless jerks

[Robo4900]

Okay so, I’m really sorry for Necroing this topic so hard, but I’m genuinely curious because I’ve heard this argument before in relation to the BA situation

How exactly would them obtaining this audio be illegal?

As far as I can tell it wouldn’t be any different than, say, someone sending the BBC a VHS recording of a missing Doctor Who serial

Is the difference the fact that they likely wouldn’t be shipped the physical tapes? Because otherwise this doesn’t sound different from any other lost media recovery situation

The difference is simply one of attitude. It actually is illegal for someone to have held onto such a VHS recording of Doctor Who, but the BBC overlook this, and in fact support this, and use it on home video.

I don't know all that much about Japanese culture, so perhaps it's a cultural thing, perhaps it's just Toei's attitude, but I'm given to understand Toei are not so kind. If a Japanese fan was known to Toei as someone who put this stuff out there, that fan could get in serious trouble, so there's an attitude of not coming forward with this stuff.

No matter how they get videos or audios, any release worldwide can't be done without Toei approval, so if any company want to use BA, they should ask Toei if they can and negociate the use: so 2 case:
- Toei will say "you used THIS footage and THIS audios" and company only have to use it
- Toei don't care and say yes

Correct.
Most likely, Toei would say the latter; Toei have pretty much never shown any real care on what's going on outside of Japan. They have some odd restrictions such as the TV deal rule, but generally, they don't care if you use better audio/video than they do, or if you butcher the show with a cut, censored, unfaithful dub, or do a film transfer that's either pristine and amazing (Levels) or crappy and terrible (Season BDs/30th anniversary); as long as you're making money for Toei, they're happy.

BUT No companies will handle the cost and time to remaster audio

Funi already did, on the optical audio, which will have been significantly harder to work with than the broadcast audio would be.
It's not a case of "No companies will take the time to remaster audio", it's more a case of there so far being no opportunity; right now, Funi are firmly in a place of doing the cheapest releases they can produce, this latest set essentially just being an uncropped master of the Season BDs, zoomed in a ton to get rid of the tape marks and glue so they don't have to do any actual cleanup work. Anyone who thinks they'd put anything but the exact same audio we got on the Season BDs on the 30th anniversary set is a fool, but that doesn't mean the broadcast audio is infeasible to clean up, it just means no one is going to do it at this time.

The fans will buy up a crap release like the 30th anniversary, broadcast audio or not. They've got a 6000 orders limit, so it's not like they're trying to market this that hard; they just have to get enough suckers in for them to pass 3000, which they'll easily manage.

this kind of stupidity deserve that they should kill themselves useless jerks

The people behind these last few Funi releases disgust me, their decisions are reprihensible, and if I ever had the chance, I'd love to debate with them the ethics behind besmirching a classic, landmark show like this...

But that's too far, man. Most likely these people are just doing their job; the big business guys at the top probably just don't care/understand, and want the companies to operate cheaply, and the guys on the ground are just doing their job, doing what the guys upstairs want them to do, to provide for themselves and their families.
Criticise them, yes. Get mad, yes. But wishing these people behind this to kill themselves, or otherwise meet any kind of harm or unfortunate end? Too far, man. Too far.

[superfan2024]

There are people who exist that actually prefer the muffled audio? What?

[crabshank1]

Just gonna drop this here:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _test.flac

Enhanced DBox audio BTW, can't wait to enhance some boradcast audio

[crabshank1]

Just improved the technique:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... _NORM.flac

[TheGreatness25]

I've always felt that the Japanese audio used by Funimation and even on the Japanese Dragon Boxes sounded extremely old. But, I'm used to it. And while it's cool that a much clearer version exists, it's not a hill I'd be willing to die on. I'm not going to go nuts if Toei nor Funimation use it.

Is there anyone who legitimately thinks that the Dragon Box audio sounds better? Sounds like blind fanboyism to me. But again, I don't think it's that big of a deal to get all upset with in the first place.

[superrayman3]

But again, I don't think it's that big of a deal to get all upset with in the first place.

Personally I have to completely disagree. I don't feel like typing my reasons out again so I'm gonna quote something I wrote a while back in another thread to explain my reason why I disagree.

"To me I've always seen the fact that Toei have shown no interest in these fan recordings whatsoever, and trying to preserve the original performances of the seiyū involved in a quality that sounds closer and more accurate to how it actually sounded when the audio was originally recorded at the time as being completely DISRESPECTFUL to the original seiyū and their work (not to mention at least from my perspective, it's also highly disrespectful to the original audio engineers that mixed the audio in the first place as well), this rings especially true when you take into account that many seiyū that were involved with the series are sadly no longer with us, that coupled with the fact that the optical tracks for the series have been slowly degrading over the years and will continue to do so as time moves forward, and the need for preserving the audio from these fan recordings has become even more important now than it's ever been before (the optical tracks were already showing telltale signs of degradation by 2003 when Toei used them for the DBOX releases of the DB/Z/GT TV series, granted the optical audio was still usable but they were still degraded nonetheless, and I dread just thinking about how a new transfer of the optical tracks would sound now over 15 years later, honestly I wouldn't be surprised in the least if a new transfer of the optical tracks sounded like almost nothing but tape hiss at this point)."

[Robo4900]

But again, I don't think it's that big of a deal to get all upset with in the first place.

Personally I have to completely disagree. I don't feel like typing my reasons out again so I'm gonna quote something I wrote a while back in another thread to explain my reason why I disagree.

"To me I've always seen the fact that Toei have shown no interest in these fan recordings whatsoever, and trying to preserve the original performances of the seiyū involved in a quality that sounds closer and more accurate to how it actually sounded when the audio was originally recorded at the time as being completely DISRESPECTFUL to the original seiyū and their work (not to mention at least from my perspective, it's also highly disrespectful to the original audio engineers that mixed the audio in the first place as well), this rings especially true when you take into account that many seiyū that were involved with the series are sadly no longer with us, that coupled with the fact that the optical tracks for the series have been slowly degrading over the years and will continue to do so as time moves forward, and the need for preserving the audio from these fan recordings has become even more important now than it's ever been before (the optical tracks were already showing telltale signs of degradation by 2003 when Toei used them for the DBOX releases of the DB/Z/GT TV series, granted the optical audio was still usable but they were still degraded nonetheless, and I dread just thinking about how a new transfer of the optical tracks would sound now over 15 years later, honestly I wouldn't be surprised in the least if a new transfer of the optical tracks sounded like almost nothing but tape hiss at this point)."

There's that, and then there's people like me, who busted our asses trying to get this audio into official hands, only to find that not only do Toei continue to have no interest, but Funi have ended up also having no interest. Feels like kind of a slap in the face after all the shit(ty people) we went through.