Dragonball's intended length

[Majin Buu]

I always hear that Dragonball was supposed to end after Freeza, but I've also heard that the series was origionally supposed to be a one shot manga that was going to end after the first wish was made at Pilaf's castle and that it's popularity forced Toriyama to continue it.

Is this true?

[DBW]

When Toriyama first created Dragon Ball he had only thought up the story to the end of the 21st Budokai. Presumably, it was just going to be a quick one-shot style series, blending elements from both ancient Chinese entertainment (Journey to the West / various legends), as well as from modern Chinese entertainment (Jackie Chan / martial arts movies). However, at this point the response was positive and he enjoyed the story, so he decided to keep going. This was all stated by Toriyama in one of the Daizenshuu interviews, although I'm too lazy to look up exactly where right now.

Although I don't recall Toriyama ever explicately stating that the series was intended to end with the Freeza arc, common sense seems to dictate such. It has also been stated in a Toriyama interview that the Trunks arc was a convoluted mess, and most of the Cell arc was dictated by his editors, leading us to believe that Toriyama had far less interest in the series beyond this point...

Translated by Greg Werner

Toriyama: Yeah, at that time, I enjoyed talking about story, rather than drawing story. Going by sagas, I only thought about each part, one month at a time. I kept digging the same hole. The most difficult part was when Trunks appeared. The more I wrote and drew, the less it made sense. It was a difficult time.

Torishima: Yeah...nobody has that kind of patience except Kondo. I couldn't have been that patient.

Toriyama: You're saying that Torishima? That's terrible. Remember that time Artificial Humans 19 and 20 appeared? You weren't in the management position at the time, but you called me at my house and said, "Mr. Toriyama, after waiting for the enemy, it turns out to be just an old man and a fat guy." (laughing) Truth is, we had only planned to use 19 and 20. We had another choice, so we sent 17 and 18. And you said, "I'm dissapointed, they're just kids.". So I sent Cell.

Takeda: You mean you didn't plan to send Cell?

Toriyama: That's right. I liked 19 and 20. Later I ended up liking 1st Stage Cell.

Takeda: That bug? You liked that bug?

Toriyama: Then Kondo said, "He looks okay, but of course he can change". So we decided to change him to a second form.

Kondo: Really? I don't remember that.

Toriyama: After that, Kondo was terribly mean. He said, "This time, Cell looks stupid. Why not make him Perfect?".

Kondo: Well, it looked...really stupid! (laughs)

Toriyama: Second stage, I liked that, and I wanted him to have more time, but we had no choice but to change him. So we made a Perfect Cell, which Kondo liked.

Also, simply looking at how the Freeza arc was written, it's clear that it was intended to be the climax to the series. Everything comes full circle; the great villain of the universe is defeated by none other than the legendary hero, Goku. You can also see that the ending they eventually came up with (Saichourou reviving and Goku escaping in Ginyu's space pod) is shakey at best, and doesn't really fit in with the overall weight of the battle. You can also see the intended ending with the Cell arc, and the intended ending with the Buu arc, but thankfully Toriyama just threw up his hands at that point and dumped the series on Toei.

So yeah, without a doubt Toriyama was 100% pressured to prolong the series beyond his desired length, but no, I don't believe there's any hard proof of Toriyama ever speaking out against Toei or Shuueisha on the matter.

It's unfortunate, because I honestly think that if Dragon Ball had ended with the Freeza arc, it would have easily been one of the best written shounen series of all time. The writing was so tight up to that point, but then when you get into Super Saiyan 2 and whatnot, the weight and urgency of the story completely falls apart and it becomes a marketing scheme. It's a fucking shame...

[BrollysKin]

I agree completly. Knowing the hero is still alive somewhere is eerie in a sense. I am glad it kept going just because I love the show, but it would have technically been best to end there.

*Am I making sense?*

[DBW]

*Am I making sense?*

Yeah, perfect sense. Looking back I could never give up characters like Trunks, Goten or Buu. However, the better choice would have been to end the series with Freeza (leaving us completely ignorant of Trunks and so forth).

I'm sure the series would have gained a little more acclaim had it ended at that point, and as I said earlier, we'd have a *real* ending, both well thought out and well written. The anime would also most likely have been tightened up around that point. There wouldn't really be any need to stretch out the Freeza battle forever, not to mention lose animation/writing resources as they hurry to write Garlic Jr. and work out the upcoming designs. What should have been the climax to a great series ends up being very sloppy in both writing and animation...

[BrollysKin]

Well said, my thoughts exactly!

[SaiyaMel]

Well put DBW.

[theoriginalbilis]

Freeza arc = my favorite arc in DragonBall.

BUT, I've would've preferred the series to end right after the end of the Cell Games, when Trunks destroys Cell in his timeline... I just like the idea of the universe's new savior being the former savior's son. It leaves us a glimmer of hope that we know Future Trunks and Gohan will be there protecting their futures.

And, Goku would've stayed dead, but happy (training in the afterlife)... and of course, everyone's memories of him in their hearts.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the Boo arc, but it was getting tired at that point (more SSJ levels, gimmicks like Fusion, Goku revived) and just felt like they were appealing to audiences just as a gimmick.

I dunno.... For me, the pinnacle of DB goodness is the Piccolo Daimao arc through the end of the Cell Games.

[Steven Perry]

If it did stop there, the ending would've been so good if we saw Goku disintegrating (Bardock style) during Planet Namek's destruction- with Bardock's spirit saying, 'You did it, my son'. Then as Goku fades away into nothing, he'd say, 'Piccolo, look after Gohan for me...' with a smile on his face. THEN, you'd do a Dragonball GT-style ending, with flashbacks of Goku's childhood.

The ending scene would then finish, with Chi-Chi looking up at he stars with watery eyes (10 years after Goku's death).

If the series was that long, we'd have better animation and writing- just like DBW said.

[DBW]

LOL, if the series ended like that I would probably cry every time I watched it, and I'm not even kidding! It would've been so powerful.

Honestly though, I think the biggest loss in all of it is the tragedy of Vegeta. Born into slavery, lives in silence waiting for the perfect moment, fights Freeza for his freedom, ultimately loses but dies happy knowing that Freeza will be killed by Saiyan hands. Goku then avenges the Saiyan race through the emotions of Vegeta, inspired by his deathwish... Now *that's* a well written story!

After Vegeta is revived the rest of his life seems to be dedicated to a pissing contest against Goku...kinda kills the significance of it all, wouldn't you say?

[Xyex]

I agree completly. Knowing the hero is still alive somewhere is eerie in a sense. I am glad it kept going just because I love the show, but it would have technically been best to end there.

I seriously doubt the Freeza arcs would have ended the same if it had still been the end of the series. The resurrection of Guru feels like a quick "Gah, I have to keep going, I need the cast back, but how the hell do I pull that off?" moment. Same idea with Goku finding the space pod.

IMO, the differences would have begun with the energy blast the Piccolo took for Goku. He'd not have survived (so bye-bye Dragonalls). And the series would have ended as the legend did. The Super Saiya-jin being destroyed when the planet exploded. The only survivors would have been Gohan and Bulma (possibly Krillin too, using Piccolo's death as the SSJ transformation trigger in his place).

It's hard to say which ending I'd like better, though. Ending with Freeza would give the series a nice and neat wrap-up. Starts with Freeza and ends with Freeza. But at the same time the Cell Games ending is just amazing. Gohan taking over for his father and all that. The Buu ending... eh. I loved Kid Buu, he's my favorite villain. And Gotenks was fun, and I'm a Videl fan too. But the ending to Buu just... the fan's screwed that one up.

[Olivier Hague]

When Toriyama first created Dragon Ball he had only thought up the story to the end of the 21st Budokai.

Er... Source, please? ^^;

[Mr.Piccolo]

I heard the series was going to end with Freeza and Cell, but this is the first time I heard it was going to end with DragonBall. Its strange, if I heard about this three weeks ago, I would be happy that the series didn't end so soon. But after picking up Advanced Adventure, I kind of wish it did. DragonBall seemed like such a complete series and some elements of Z and GT seems like overkill. I mean, flying is common in Z but in DragonBall, it was the shit..!

[Tanooki Kuribo]

I heard the series was going to end with Freeza and Cell...

I always hear that Dragonball was supposed to end after Freeza...

I heard Dragonball was suppost to end right after Bulma hit Goku with her car. He was suppost to die but the editors pushed him to do more.

[Mr.Piccolo]

I heard the series was going to end with Freeza and Cell...

I always hear that Dragonball was supposed to end after Freeza...

I heard Dragonball was suppost to end right after Bulma hit Goku with her car. He was suppost to die but the editors pushed him to do more.

Actually, Toriyama told me the story was going to be about Goku catching the fish and his real name is Hans. So get your facts straight.

[Jodaku]

*Am I making sense?*

Yeah, perfect sense. Looking back I could never give up characters like Trunks, Goten or Buu. However, the better choice would have been to end the series with Freeza (leaving us completely ignorant of Trunks and so forth).

I'm sure the series would have gained a little more acclaim had it ended at that point, and as I said earlier, we'd have a *real* ending, both well thought out and well written. The anime would also most likely have been tightened up around that point. There wouldn't really be any need to stretch out the Freeza battle forever, not to mention lose animation/writing resources as they hurry to write Garlic Jr. and work out the upcoming designs. What should have been the climax to a great series ends up being very sloppy in both writing and animation...

That's my main thing with Dragon Ball ending at the Freeza saga, if it had finished at that point, DB as a whole would've been one of the greatest stories ever told. However by the end of the Buu saga, the story is stretched very thin, and yet there's many things post-Freeza saga I wouldn't swap for the 'perfect' ending such as the Future Trunks' introduction, The Cell Games and any scene/panel with either Majin Vegeta or Ultimate Gohan, and the continued development of those latter two characters who IMO, ultimately carried the series between them post-Freeza saga, as they were the only genuinely interesting characters who's sell by date hadn't passed by the Freeza saga (maybe with the exception of Piccolo, but even he lost steam late Cell saga). And I include Goku as character who was wearing thin as a character by the time the Freeza saga had finished. To me for the most, the only reason Goku stays relevent in post-Freeza era DB is down to his interactions with either Gohan or Vegeta.

I actually made a thread adressing these kind of issues a few years back, and actually turned out to be a decent topic, so for you guys who didn't join up on this board in early days might want to check it out here: http://db.schuby.org/daizex/viewtopic.p ... highlight=

[Conan the SSJ]

I mean, flying is common in Z but in DragonBall, it was the shit..!

You're telling me. One of the things I loved about original DragonBall was that Goku never actually patents the ability of Bukujutsu/Flight until the moment he defeats Piccolo Junior, you could say a spontaneous moment where he develops it, similar to SSJ. Kind of how Clark Kent virtually never flies in the TV show Smallville, Goku is the same way in DragonBall; the ending of the 23rd Budokai and a brief moment in the Wedding mini-saga being exceptions. "No Flights, No Saiyajin"

[Mr.Piccolo]

The one thing that I enjoyed from Smallville, when my bro forced me to watch, was the fact that Clark couldn't really control his powers in the beginning. That is why Smallville is a bit like DragonBall imo. In response to Jodaku's link, I really want to add onto that thread but that would be the ultimate necropost. ><

[DBW]

When Toriyama first created Dragon Ball he had only thought up the story to the end of the 21st Budokai.

Er... Source, please? ^^;

I dug around a little and it turns out the quote is from the same interview I quoted earlier...talk about brain dead, LOL.

This interview is from a limited item called the "Shen Long Times" which came with the Daizenshuu (kind of like the Dragon Ball Children interviews from the Kanzenban). I've never seen these interviews in person, but Greg Werner had a bunch translated on his old site. Unfortunately, these interviews don't seem to be online anymore. Anyways, here's the quote...

Torishima: Well, we were thinking what we could do after Dr. Slump. We wondered, "What do we do next?". I asked Mr. Toriyama to write a one-shot story for Weekly Jump and Fresh Jump.

Toriyama: I wrote many one-shots. Then Mr. Torishima and I had a lot of talks. Torishima said the reader reaction to these wasn't good. We planned these carefully in meetings but.....(smiles)

Torishima: We didn't really talk about Dragon Ball seriously after Dr. Slump, but the reader reaction was really good.

Toriyama: Yeah I had a good feeling about the positive reactions, so I thought this might be really good. I thought I should make the boy the hero.

Takeda: Then we started continuing the stories. At the start, how long did you think it would take to make each saga?

Toriyama: At the start, I didn't think about that. I thought it would only last a year, so I made up three sagas.*

* Theses three sagas were the original Dragon Ball adventure, The training for the 21st Tenkaichi Budoukai and the 21st Tenakaichi Budoukai.

[DaemonCorps]

I heard Dragonball was suppost to end right after Bulma hit Goku with her car. He was suppost to die but the editors pushed him to do more. :Wink:

Toriyama: See, what I'm aiming for is this sort of short but sweet tragedy--

Editor: Rejected!

Anyways, "yay!" an interesting topic!

If it did stop there, the ending would've been so good if we saw Goku disintegrating (Bardock style) during Planet Namek's destruction- with Bardock's spirit saying, 'You did it, my son'. Then as Goku fades away into nothing, he'd say, 'Piccolo, look after Gohan for me...' with a smile on his face. THEN, you'd do a Dragonball GT-style ending, with flashbacks of Goku's childhood.

Wow... . Of course, this has to to be drawn. Get to it, AnnouncerGuy!

[fanboy]And Goku should still be in SSJ until the very last second, when he fully disappears. And just to show parallels, Freeza's body should just be shown dead on the ground without anybody looking out for him, like his dad or something[/fanboy]

And I guess the whole thing with Freeza being able to breath in the vacuum of space would have either been a bluff on Freeza's behalf, or removed completely if the series were to end there.

As for my own thoughts on the subject, I think it was pretty interesting that DB always built up in its bad guys: the bumbling Pilaf and co., the Red Ribbon, Piccolo Daimaou/Jr., the Saiyans, Freeza. But after Freeza, you're kinda stuck with kinda similar characters: intergalactic bad guys who in general want to destroy the universe.

And yeah, the whole explanation with Guru and the other Namekians coming back and Goku finding Ginyu's space pod do seem like it was thought up by someone who wanted the DB series to continue. This also explains why we got so much filler during the Freeza fight-- because the animotors were [probably] under the impression that the series was going to end until the last second, in which the animators were already well into the final fight for the anime. Well, at least, DB never got as bad as Naruto .

And I also agree that DB without Trunks and the rest of the characters just seems incomplete. Then again, we wouldn't have known about them anyways, so... yeah.

And DBW, thanks for letting the rest of us know how much we're missing just because Viz doesn't have the balls and/or rights to release the Daizenshuu.

:whew: sorry for all of the "and"s

[Rocketman]

And I also agree that DB without Trunks and the rest of the characters just seems incomplete.

Trunks is overrated. The series would've been better ending at Freeza.