Broly's rage: is it inherently genetic or learnable?

[Broli Broly]

So many threads and videos have been made since we got the information that Broly's Ikari is basically using the Great Ape power in human form —which makes it substantially SSJ4 in some sense— these threads discuss the possibility of Goku and/or Vegeta getting the said form in the future. The argument they basically use is that since all saiyans can turn into Oozaru when they are exposed to blutz waves of the moon while having a tail, then they can "LEARN" how to use that power in their human form like Broly did. Well, Broly's Ikari apparently doesn't need a tail, nor to be exposed to the blutz waves of the moon according to the movie. Adding to that the fact that Broly is a "special", "Mutant", "Legendary" Saiyan .. call him what you like, so, logically, what applies to him does NOT necessarily apply to other regular Saiyans. Furthermore, there's an evidence had that Ikari since he was born. Those Saiyan scientists told King Vegeta that the power of baby Broly was "fluctuating", and we've seen that he wasn't able to destroy King Vegeta' scouter until he cried (possibly he was angry / annoyed by the noise around him). It is also confirmed that Ikari is the foundation of Broly's other forms, one of which is his eponymous LSSJ form. We've seen that Broly got his unique Green ki and was significantly growing in size since he started using Ikari. Of course I can't imagine Goku & Vegeta growing exponentially in size & having that green aura like Broly, because that's what makes the latter a "mutant" in the Saiyan race. What do you guys think about this?

[GodVegetto91]

I think it’s certainly learnable by any Saiyan. It’s just that.. No! The writers shouldn’t give that to any other Saiyan. This should be unique to Broly. It’s what sets him apart as a “mutant prodigy”. Let him have his green aura/ki/power while have Goku and Vegeta using SSJ Blue and Ultra Instinct in the future.

[mute_proxy]

Doesn't he have green aura during all of his forms (even regular SS)? I think it might be genetics. Also the whole mutant thing and all

Oh wait, for some reason I thought you meant Broly's green haired form when reading the title.

I don't really see Vegeta or Goku learning the form since it's below SS1 in Broly's case, but I do think it's learnable. The emphasis on Ikari is that it's Oozaru power, it's not about Broly specifically.

[Broli Broly]

I think it’s certainly learnable by any Saiyan. It’s just that.. No! The writers shouldn’t give that to any other Saiyan. This should be unique to Broly. It’s what sets him apart as a “mutant prodigy”. Let him have his green aura/ki/power while have Goku and Vegeta using SSJ Blue and Ultra Instinct in the future.

You didn't provide any evidence as to why you think it is "certainly learnable"! It's as if someone said: "I think SS Rosé is definitely attainable by any Saiyan .. It’s just that.. No! The writers shouldn’t give that to any other Saiyan. This should be unique to Zamasu Black. It’s what sets him apart as a "Saiyan with Kaoishin soul/ki". Yes, Being a "mutant" demands necessarily a unique trait, state, condition ... etc which sets Broly apart from the rest of Saiyans. Goku & Vegeta went through dozens of tragic moments as well, and 3/4 of their life was just training and/or fighting, yet no one of them was able to achieve anything similar to that.

[Broli Broly]

Doesn't he have green aura during all of his forms (even regular SS)? I think it might be genetics. Also the whole mutant thing and all

Oh wait, for some reason I thought you meant Broly's green haired form when reading the title.

I don't really see Vegeta or Goku learning the form since it's below SS1 in Broly's case, but I do think it's learnable. The emphasis on Ikari is that it's Oozaru power, it's not about Broly specifically.

Broly started having Green aura/ki only after he unlocked his Ikari form. We know that it is about Oozaru, but the thing is .. Broly doesn't need his tail and blutz waves to access the Oozaru power like most Saiyans including Goku, Vegeta & Gohan. A mutant is according to Oxford: "An individual (or, formerly, a species or form) which has arisen by or undergone mutation, or which carries a mutant gene (in Science Fiction, usu. an individual with freak or grossly abnormal anatomy, abilities, etc.); also, a mutant gene." The concept of Oozaru is underlying the entirety of Universe 7 Saiyan Race's attributes, for it is their origin. Being the prodigy of his race, Broly is able apparently to tap into the power of Saiyajin's Origin. What further supports this idea of Ikari being unique to him is the new design and theme which toriyama came up with. He literally made New Broly a Saiyan version of Tarzan, looking totally primal & savage, and having "fur" as an indispensable part of his design. You can see clearly that Toriayama took the design of SSJ4 Goku and modified it a little bit for Broly: (the illustration of SSJ4 Goku was made by Toriyama himself in 2005)

[mute_proxy]

Broly started having Green aura/ki only after he unlocked his Ikari form

We don't know that.

Broly doesn't need his tail and blutz waves to access the Oozaru power like most Saiyans including Goku, Vegeta & Gohan.

They need the tail and blutz waves to transform into Oozaru, nothing was mentioned about using Oozaru's power. They never learned it is as good of an answer as any.

Oozaru is underlying the entirety of Universe 7 Saiyan Race's attributes, for it is their origin.

Nowhere does it say that Oozaru is their origin. That's like saying warewolfs were originally wolfs, not men.

You can see clearly that Toriayama took the design of SSJ4 Goku and modified it a little bit for Broly

Saiyans were depicted as savage hairry, fur wearing warriors since the Z days. The only similarity with SS4 is that he's a bit more hairy than the other saiyans. Toriyama's similar drawing style of characters is not a similarity. Everything you're saying is highly subjective, but you constantly use words like "obviously", "clearly", "there's evidence" (when the isn't), "confirmed" (when there isn't), I don't think I can manage a discussion like that

[Broli Broly]

We don't know that.

Have you watched the movie? I have watched it, and I can tell that Green aura appeared right after his eyes turned golden. You can ask the members here who watched the movie in case you haven't yet watched it.

They need the tail and blutz waves to transform into Oozaru, nothing was mentioned about using Oozaru's power. They never learned it is as good of an answer as any.

That's what I am hinting at! Broly himself didn't "learn" it in the traditional sense of the word. Paragus himself didn't have it and knows about it only through his son. Broly just unlocked it, in the same way Goku unlocked SSJ for the first time in Namek without knowing what it was or how it was achieved.

Nowhere does it say that Oozaru is their origin. That's like saying warewolfs were originally wolfs, not men.

That's a specualtion. The Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files also hinted at that. All Saiyans were born with hairy, Monkey-ish tail which has nothing to do with human genes/anatomy. At least this speculation has strong facts to back it up.

Everything you're saying is highly subjective, but you constantly use words like "obviously", "clearly", "there's evidence" (when the isn't), "confirmed" (when there isn't), I don't think I can manage a discussion like that

Is it prohibited to express my opinion with "obviously", "clearly" .. etc? That's my PERSONAL viewpoint and how I see things. It's not like I forced things to be "obvious" to you by simply using "obviousl" .. WTF!! I used "it's confirmed" only one time in this thread when I said: "It is confirmed that Ikari is the foundation of Broly's other forms, one of which is his eponymous LSSJ form", and that's actually the case. The movie showed FPSSJ Broly having Ikari's Golden pupils near the end of his fight against SSB Gogeta:

Before you deny, at least put in some effort to search/ask if you don't know, not keep accusing people like that!

[MKCSTEALTH]

I think it's a learnable skill. We don't really know how the Kales and Brolys work in terms of Saiyan power. Whether it's a mutation, an abundance of midichlorians S-Cells, or the "true form of a Super Saiyan", it's not been explained.

My guess is given the circumstances of Broly's upbringing, with Paragus supposedly cutting his tail off every time it grew back, he learned to focus that rage and power of an Oozaru as a Base Saiyan.

Or, it could be a result of his insane combat adaptability, being able to go from Super Saiyan Vegeta to trouncing SSB Goku and Vegeta

[Jackalope89]

I'd rather it be genetic over learnable.

For Broly and Kale, when they powered up similarly to their peers, they went Ikari over regular SSJ.

[SSJgogeto]

Something like this would be cool.

[Son Dragon]

Hey there and best wishes. Anyway I feel the transformation can be done.

Spoiler:

During the original Dragon Ball there's a panel (Chapters 160: The Power of The Great Ape & 161: The Fist of Son Goku) where Goku taps to the power of the Oozaru from his base form which is somewhat similar to what Ikari is about.

And If Ikari is something exclusive to Broly, I also believe it possible for other sayains to mimic the transformation with a version of it all their own.

Spoiler:

Also for another example during Dragon Ball Legends Shallot peforms a similar feat just before transforming into a Super Saiyan, including an edgey hairstyle and red eyes.

Furthermore as a concept Ikari might have originated from Super Saiyan 4 and the first person to ever hold that form was Goku. Who still has that form in the extended universe. Beyond that we also have Super Dragon Heroes which has a history offering characters tranformation they might not normally have.

[Broli Broly]

Something like this would be cool.

Yeah, and something like this is would also be cool


But we all know that it's next to impossible

[Broli Broly]

Hey there and best wishes. Anyway I feel the transformation can be done.

Spoiler:

During the original Dragon Ball there's a panel (Chapters 160: The Power of The Great Ape & 161: The Fist of Son Goku) where Goku taps to the power of the Oozaru from his base form which is somewhat similar to what Ikari is about.

And If Ikari is something exclusive to Broly, I also believe it possible for other sayains to mimic the transformation with a version of it all their own.

Spoiler:

Also for another example during Dragon Ball Legends Shallot peforms a similar feat just before transforming into a Super Saiyan, including an edgey hairstyle and red eyes.

Furthermore as a concept Ikari might have originated from Super Saiyan 4 and the first person to ever hold that form was Goku. Who still has that form in the extended universe. Beyond that we also have Super Dragon Heroes which has a history offering characters tranformation they might not normally have.

The cases of Goku & Shallot you mentioned supported even more the assumption that Broly's Ikari is a genetic "mutation". What Goku & Shallot did is not something special at all, since it needed the tails, and the Moon's Blutz waves which basically all full-blooded Saiyans have access to. Broly's case is apparently quite different, given the "fact" that, unlike regular Saiyans, he is able to use "Oozaru power" without the need of a tail and the Blutz waves. Here's another interesting point which supports this view:
Every Saiyan form has a "unique" color of aura:
- Base: colorless/transparent aura which is shared between all DB characters from all races.
- Kaioken: special red glowing aura
- SSJ (1, 2 & 3): yellow/Golden aura which is unique to this form.
- SSG: red & orange, flame-like aura which is notably different from that of Kaioken.
- SS Beyond god (Kami o koeta Saiya-jin): milky white aura.
- SSB: Super Saiyan Blue boasts a vibrant, fiery, electric cyan blue aura, as opposed to the blazing orange aura of Super Saiyan God.
Now, if you think about it, all the Saiyans who transformed into an Oozaru didn't emit a "unique" aura at all. Neither did Shallot in DB Heroes (a non-canon source BTW) when he used that form against Raditz. Broly's Ikari has Green aura unique to it, which is the same aura of the Legendary Super Saiyan (Cabba confirmed in the manga that they truly appear once every 1000 years):

[SSJgogeto]

Something like this would be cool.

Yeah, and something like this is would also be cool

But we all know that it's next to impossible

So what?

[Broli Broly]

Something like this would be cool.

Yeah, and something like this is would also be cool

But we all know that it's next to impossible

So what?

Being cool is not an argument, simply put.

[SSJgogeto]

Again, so what?

[Rubens]

I feel the ability to harness or to attain a form that harnesses the power of an oozaru is something saiyans might be biologically capable to do, but it's something seemingly incredibly hard to do that only Broli can achieve because of his legendary status. I guess if some saiyan did achieve that form, probably it would be nowhere near as strong as Broli's, maybe only a resemblence.

[mute_proxy]

I feel the ability to harness or to attain a form that harnesses the power of an oozaru is something saiyans might be biologically capable to do, but it's something seemingly incredibly hard to do that only Broli can achieve because of his legendary status. I guess if some saiyan did achieve that form, probably it would be nowhere near as strong as Broli's, maybe only a resemblence.

This one only has the mutant status lol

[Broli Broly]

I feel the ability to harness or to attain a form that harnesses the power of an oozaru is something saiyans might be biologically capable to do, but it's something seemingly incredibly hard to do that only Broli can achieve because of his legendary status. I guess if some saiyan did achieve that form, probably it would be nowhere near as strong as Broli's, maybe only a resemblence.

No, it's not hard. In fact, it is much easier to attain than SSJ, since both kid Goku (ch 160 & 161) and Shallot from DB heroes were able to get an Oozaru power up while still being humans with not so much effort. Pretty much any Saiyan can do that as long as he/she has a tail and he/she exposed to the Moon's waves. The differences between this and Broly's case is as follows:
1- The necessity of tails & blutz waves for regular Saiyans. Boly can access his power without the need of a tail or blutz waves.
2- The lack of any unique aura in Goku/Shallot's case. Broly's Ikari has unique Green aura.

3- In Ikari, Broly kept growing in seize until he literally dwarfed Goku ... Kid Goku & Shallot lack this feature.

4- During the transformation sequence of SSJ, Broly's eyes turned wholly red, the same as an actual Oozaru:


5- During the Transformation sequence to the "Full Power SSJ", the same thing happened again:




These pics show that all Broly's forms (Ikari, SSJ & FPSSJ) work under the same principle of Ikari: "using the power of Oozaru in human form". So unless someone thinks that Broly's signature form (FPSSJ) is attainable/ learnable, I would say Ikari/Wrathful is a Mutation which only Legendary Saiyans possess.

[Son Dragon]

I disagree with the premises. But I think the best way to test this theory is to see it in action. And until we have another saiyan whose tail is off and can control an oozaru from their base forms we really won't know the ultimate conclusions about Ikari being obtainable through normal saiyans