Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

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Super Murjin
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Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:03 pm

So after reading Dragon Ball Super manga chapter 52 ... i'm wondering if a concept that a lot of us were thinking about was answered indirectly. The question being, can Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct be combined.
It appears that Super Saiyan is achieved through rage, an emotion, while Ultra Instinct is the exact opposite of that. So how can one be emotionless and full of rage at the same time? Is it possible. We saw Super Saiyan God which is more of a peaceful type of transformation mixed with Super Saiyan (rage) resulting in Super Saiyan Blue (perfect ki-control). Are the creators trying to keep Ultra Instinct separate from that concept?
Personally i hope so. I don't really want to see Super Saiyan combined with Ultra Instinct, Angel ki, Omni ki, or another other type of energy/state. We saw it once with god ki, as well as, with Kaio-ken. Keep the forms unique to themselves and avoid the stacking of power-ups.

I've attached a link to the page where Merus explains the difference between Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct. Very interesting. :think:

https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/dragon-b ... ction=read
Last edited by Super Murjin on Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Super Murjin » Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:04 pm

pages 40 - 42 to be exact :thumbup:

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:08 pm

When Completed Ultra Instinct Goku got enraged, he managed to take down Jiren.
It was a SSJ-like rageboost.
But did that truely make sense? Since UI should be a state in which the mind is '100 % in control'.

SSJB is different in my opinion, although it's a more controlled state than the classic forms, the rage-factor could still be used to crank it up.
It's in fact still Super Saiyan, which works through emotion, only mixed with God-Ki.

UI however should remain a state of complete neutrality. Like with Whis, he never shows any sign of rage when he fights.
I don't like the idea of UI mixed with SSJ. I hope they don't walk that path.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:30 am

To make things more complicated, UI is a technique, and the "limit breaking" silver haired form Goku uses gives him access to said technique. The form and the technique aren't one and the same, are they? Can the forms be combined? Can the technique be used while in other forms? I mean it is just a technique. Where does the form even come from? :crazy:

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:02 am

mute_proxy wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:30 am
To make things more complicated, UI is a technique, and the "limit breaking" silver haired form Goku uses gives him access to said technique. The form and the technique aren't one and the same, are they? Can the forms be combined? Can the technique be used while in other forms? I mean it is just a technique. Where does the form even come from? :crazy:

It's a 'state of mind' being translated in a form. That's how i see it.
Rage while fighting is being translated in SSJ.
Controlled rage is being translated in SSJB.
Complete peace of mind and tranquillity (which is the most efficient) while fighting is being translated in UI.

I don't see how the mindset for SSJ and UI are combinable.
When one achieves UI, power should no longer be enhanced by rage.

The fact Saiyans change (hairstyle, Oozaru-form ...) with the state of mind they are fighting in, probably has something to do with their DNA.
Other non-Saiyan warriors more tend to simply power up or apply it without changing.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by mute_proxy » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:17 am

Mister_Popo wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:02 am

The fact Saiyans change (hairstyle, Oozaru-form ...) with the state of mind they are fighting in, probably has something to do with their DNA.
Ah, that's an interesting way to put it, and makes things simpler :thumbup: it's a technique/state of mind slightly affecting appearance of a saiyan, that's not bad. I wish we had more details on it

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Lionel » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:24 pm

As an admittedly biased person, I hope this doesn't become a reality. Ultra Instinct by itself being rendered into a pseudo visual transformation for Goku already seemed to defy the premise of the technique that others like Beerus and Whis had demonstrated.

Goku will continue to grow stronger while having the technique, guaranteed. What's protecting the angels' and Daishinkan's status at the moment is the vagueness of just how much more powerful they are in relation to Beerus, other Hakaishin, and the ningen who are trying to compete with them. They can be conveniently re-positioned further up the echelon ladder if the need arises.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Tue Nov 05, 2019 5:46 pm

My reason why Goku transforms whilst using UI and Whis and Beerus don't show any sign of change, is 'head canon' basically.
It's a manner of non-official "in universe" explaining of things that otherwise don't make any sense.
The true reasoning from the franchise of using endless different shapes and forms is probably purely commercial.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:53 am

Goku attains a different look when he uses Ultra Instinct probably because the state of mind of a Saiyan has direct influence on their appearance. It shouldn’t be possible to combine Super Saiyan with it, but shonen franchises like to play with these ideas.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Thani » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:05 pm

But to be fair, Omen doesn't change Goku's appearence. And UI itself grants him silver hair just like the angels.

So even if it's a transformation, one can still assume that no visual change is needed for Beerus (using Omen) or Whis (who already have silver hair).

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by ZeroNeonix » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:51 pm

I fully expect SSB and Ultra Instinct to be combined at some point. Hopefully after they give a proper amount of time to Ultra Instinct, so it can have its time to shine before becoming obsolete. Unlike what they did with Super Saiyan God, immediately replacing it with Blue.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:30 pm

Thani wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:05 pm
But to be fair, Omen doesn't change Goku's appearence. And UI itself grants him silver hair just like the angels.

So even if it's a transformation, one can still assume that no visual change is needed for Beerus (using Omen) or Whis (who already have silver hair).
It does change a little bit. His eyes turn silver and he has a gentle flaming aura.

The point is that since it is related to emotion (or extreme control of emotion), it changes Saiyans’ appearance, while the same doesn’t happen with a non-Saiyan.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by mute_proxy » Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:46 pm

Thani wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:05 pm
But to be fair, Omen doesn't change Goku's appearence. And UI itself grants him silver hair just like the angels.
The angels have white hair, not silver

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by UpFromTheSkies » Wed Nov 13, 2019 4:35 pm

If they require opposite states of mind I dont think they can be combined. If Goku wants to be stronger in UI, he would need to become stronger in his base form, which might be why Whis was training them in base form... assuming Toriyama was thinking that far ahead in the story.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Melkaniator » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:33 am

Thani wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:05 pm
But to be fair, Omen doesn't change Goku's appearence.
It does actually, Goku's hair raises in a specific manner and his eyes go silver.
mute_proxy wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 4:46 pm

The angels have white hair, not silver
Exactly, some people want to still make that connection, but it seems forced.
Mister_Popo wrote:
Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:02 am

I don't see how the mindset for SSJ and UI are combinable.
When one achieves UI, power should no longer be enhanced by rage.
Wasn't SS no longer a rage form for Goku after Cell Tournament training?
DBS anime is a fan service series that delivers irrelevant dialogue, inconsistent writing, and lazy designs.

The DB manga never had so many mistakes, nor those were this constant.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm

I agree Goku was a lot more in control of the form after the Cell Tournament training, but in order to go full power there still seems to be some emotion involved. Remember SSB Goku vs Black and Zamasu. He was alredy in the form, but he powered up further considerably evoked by the emotion of severe rage and loss. This while SSB has a mastered SSJ1-component as well

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:31 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm
I agree Goku was a lot more in control of the form after the Cell Tournament training, but in order to go full power there still seems to be some emotion involved. Remember SSB Goku vs Black and Zamasu. He was alredy in the form, but he powered up further considerably evoked by the emotion of severe rage and loss. This while SSB has a mastered SSJ1-component as well
Didn't Old Kai say that as a Super Saiyan rage enters his heart so he isn't completely pure in that form?
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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Mister_Popo » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:45 pm

Hulk10 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:31 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm
I agree Goku was a lot more in control of the form after the Cell Tournament training, but in order to go full power there still seems to be some emotion involved. Remember SSB Goku vs Black and Zamasu. He was alredy in the form, but he powered up further considerably evoked by the emotion of severe rage and loss. This while SSB has a mastered SSJ1-component as well
Didn't Old Kai say that as a Super Saiyan rage enters his heart so he isn't completely pure in that form?

I only proposed SSJB can still be enhanced by rage, though it's a form that heavily relies on control.

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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by Hulk10 » Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:47 pm

Mister_Popo wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:45 pm
Hulk10 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:31 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm
I agree Goku was a lot more in control of the form after the Cell Tournament training, but in order to go full power there still seems to be some emotion involved. Remember SSB Goku vs Black and Zamasu. He was alredy in the form, but he powered up further considerably evoked by the emotion of severe rage and loss. This while SSB has a mastered SSJ1-component as well
Didn't Old Kai say that as a Super Saiyan rage enters his heart so he isn't completely pure in that form?

I just insinuated SSJB can still be enhanced by rage, though it's a form that relies on control.
I know you did but I was talking about the regular form.
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Re: Super Saiyan and Ultra Instinct combined?! (spoilers)

Post by HeroR » Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:20 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 5:31 pm
Mister_Popo wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:53 pm
I agree Goku was a lot more in control of the form after the Cell Tournament training, but in order to go full power there still seems to be some emotion involved. Remember SSB Goku vs Black and Zamasu. He was alredy in the form, but he powered up further considerably evoked by the emotion of severe rage and loss. This while SSB has a mastered SSJ1-component as well
Didn't Old Kai say that as a Super Saiyan rage enters his heart so he isn't completely pure in that form?
Old Kai never said that.

The idea that Super Saiyan makes you less pure hearted actually came from Toei: first in a guide book, then Move 7 with Android 13, and finally into Super with Goku making the Spirit Bomb against Jiren. Nothing like this is ever stated in the manga, although it's implied that Goku isn't completely pure going Super Saiyan the first time since he wanted to brutalized Freeza. But even that is hard to say since Goku was still considered pure when he went on his murderous rampage against King Piccolo and his children.

That said, Cabba said rage is only needed the first time and you transform more naturally afterwards (yes, back tingling), which is how Cali skipped the anger part.
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