False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

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False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:55 am

Figured it was time to give some love/attention to one of the most (if not the most) underrated concept and transformation of this franchise (and to bring back these kind of threads that were a thing years ago). No doubt better than any over-the-top transformations and ugly recolors we see out there these days, False Super Saiyan perfectly embodies the feeling of brutal power yet retaining a rather simplistic but stylish design, as things should be.

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Though not conceptually intended to be a "quasi Super Saiyan", I actually think it's quite interesting to have this "half step from the real deal". Because of that, I have this "headcanon" that False Super Saiyan has a multiplier of x25. Unfortunately, this transformation only appeared once, never to be seen again. And when I say "never to be seen again", I mean we literally never saw it anywhere else outside its movie debut. Surprisingly enough, not even Dragon Ball Heroes, the game with the biggest rost, features this form to this day. Why? Why good things never get the recognition they deserve? That's why I'm here with this thread!

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Without the need to recolor the hair, except for a tint of red on its ends, pupils that vanish, and the iconic golden aura, False Super Saiyan sets a standard for what transformations should be. Why would we need long hair with a weird absence of eyebrows? Fur covering the body that changes the clothes of its user? A rainbow à la Power Rangers impregnating the hairs? When we can have this!

There's not much more to say about it because of its so little appearance in the franchise, but what do you think of this form? Is it one of the greatest ideas or a bad nonsense compared to what we have today? Would you like to see it make a return or be completely forgotten? Show us your love (or hate, though it kinda defeats the purpose of these threads) towards False Super Saiyan!

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:19 am

I mean... yeah, it's okay. It's like Vegeta and Nappa's wrong colourisations in their early appearances in the DBZ anime. A cute little piece of historical trivia that doesn't really need to appear again. Although seeing as Vegeta's godawful Arlia look gets action figures and alt-colour references in games occasionally, it would be nice to see some Pseudo Super Saiyan easter eggs. However, it appearing again in a serious storyline isn't really necessary when we already have a bloated list of higher, easier-to-draw-and-animate transformations.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:33 am

It’s a little difficult to get past the fact that the form exists as nothing more than a cheap marketing stunt for a subpar movie. The form wasn’t even relevant to the rest of the movie. It just came and went. They could’ve at least had Goku defeat Slug in that form.

All things considered, it’s not difficult to see why Movie 4 is as infamous as it is.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:42 am

WittyUsername wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:33 am It’s a little difficult to get past the fact that the form exists as nothing more than a cheap marketing stunt for a subpar movie.
Do you think it's possible that Toriyama provided them with this design due to it being what he was going to originally use in the manga, only for him to not only change his mind, but also introduce the form later than expected, resulting in the movie doing it first ?

Dende was introduced as earth's guardian in M6 before it happened in the manga, while the other Kais were introduced in the other world tournament before being introduced in the manga. It seems like Toriyama had no issue telling Toei about his plans and even allowing them to skip ahead of him in implementing them. If that's the case, do you think it's possible that this "false" Ssj was what Toriyama was going to do before changing his mind at the last minute ? I just can't see Toei doing something as major as this without getting his OK first.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:44 am

My thinking on this thing is that it was possibly an early concept that Toriyama had done for the original SSJ form while still in the process of writing the Freeza arc in the manga, that is before he eventually changed the form to the golden haired blue-green eyed look it would ultimately take in the series itself. Maybe when Movie 4 came out he hadn't quite figured out how Super Saiyan would look so this pupil-less pseudo/fake SSJ is likely what he had in the cards before coming up with the final product.

Heck, the movie's title in Japanese is "Super Saiyan Son Goku" even though he didn't actually become one in the series itself until days later for the manga and several months in the anime. The film came out in March 1991 and the former two didn't have the big moment happen until those respective times. By the time the first Coola movie released shortly thereafter Goku had already become a Super Saiyan proper on both fronts.
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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pm

There are three ways to take False Super Saiyan as a means of "legitimizing it" beyond it just being a rejected Super Saiyan or a Big Lipped Alligator Moment:

1) Super Saiyan Omen. Like Ultra Instinct, this form heralds the true Super Saiyan form. That's why it looks so much like it, even including some of the form's power. Hell, it even has the slightly tinted hair of Super Saiyan. That said, that slight tint was due to the coloring of the movie, and we even saw that same coloring in an actual episode of DBZ with Vegeta. No, not when Vegeta IV used his Saiyan Soul power up and had that yellow aura around him...

Image

THIS Vegeta
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In a flashback. Maybe it was an animation error, but it's curious that the same colors are used; it tells me that "False Super Saiyan" probably would look just like having a regular Super Saiyan aura in any normal lighting conditions.

Another curious thing is that, for a single frame, Goku's hair isn't standing upwards. Considering that the effect they were going for was that the power of the form was disrupting the air all around him, I wonder if the form was originally envisioned as being like Kaioken but with certain differences that made it unlike Kaioken (hence why Kaio-sama had no knowledge of what was going on at first)

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2) Failed Super Saiyan. The classic explanation, but I tend to find it pretty boring. Though it does seem fitting. I also love how the color scheme is reversed between the two since Toriyama hadn't decided that golden hair would be a more obvious indication of a power up— instead Son Goku's SKIN is gold! That's a fairly obvious change, but the glowing skin/black hair combo looks weird. It's the empty eyes that conveys the most power, but we've already seen that before (though its most famous user had yet to come).
The issue about Son Goku not being angry enough to go full Super Saiyan is completely laughable now, too. Maybe at the time it held up, but we've seen several Saiyans go Super with far, far less motivation. Hell, Caulifla didn't even feel any particular emotion; she just willed herself into becoming one. And Goten? I don't think we EVER found out why he transformed other than "he just did." Basically any emotional trigger could've thrown Goku over the edge in retrospect, even if it was just Slug saying he was going to kill Gohan or Krillin. If not, then why did Cabba transform when Vegeta (a guy he had no reason to think was evil) just THREATENED to destroy Sadala, having no real evident motivation to do so? This is the ultimate testament to the False Super Saiyan form being just a prototype, and the "not angry enough" explanation falls apart like Dragon Ball's power scaling consistency.

3) Previously unknown Feral Saiyan/precursor to Ikari. This is my favorite explanation nowadays— the idea that there's actually some unknown branch of power in the Saiyan bloodline that causes one to look a lot like a Super Saiyan but not actually be a Super Saiyan. You know, ahem... a FALSE Super Saiyan
It doesn't help that the Ikari form looks so much like it.
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I'd love it if the False Super Saiyan form was retconned into being the Ikari form, or if it was an entirely separate branch of power that basically allowed all of a Saiyan's latent potential to come to the forefront (making them stronger than even their strongest form at the time) at the cost of their reason or ability to gauge friend or foe. If that were the case, we'd actually have a reason to see it again— Son Goku using the "False Super Saiyan" form would actually make him stronger than he is in Ultra Instinct, but he'd have absolutely no control over himself and would be completely berserk until someone snapped him out of it (and thus out of the form). But it's so insignificant that we'll never see anything done with it.
Grimlock wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 3:55 am Figured it was time to give some love/attention to one of the most (if not the most) underrated concept and transformation of this franchise (and to bring back these kind of threads that were a thing years ago). No doubt better than any over-the-top transformations and ugly recolors we see out there these days, False Super Saiyan perfectly embodies the feeling of brutal power yet retaining a rather simplistic but stylish design, as things should be.
Funny as hell, Super Saiyan God appears to have actually been something like False Super Saiyan

Image
Still with red hair, but otherwise a very FSS-looking color scheme, aura, and general design. Almost like a False-False Super Saiyan.

I distinctly remember when this leak first happened way back in 2013, and I was one of the first people to mention it on the DBZF.co.uk forums. I very distinctly remember saying "Uh oh" out loud because you have to remember: people at the time thought Super Saiyan God was going to be this over-the-type Dragon Ball AF-esque Golden Super Saiyan 4, and for years afterwards were angry that it WASN'T. I mean, up until the form actually debuted, every single video on YouTube, every single piece of fanart, everything to do with Super Saiyan God portrayed it as a Golden SS4, so seeing the actual form just made me go "Uh oh."

Not because I thought it was bad, of course. I loved the idea of FSS getting some love and was actually disappointed by it looking more like Kaioken + a badly done fire aura; to this day, I don't get why it needs a literal flaming aura, especially when the best Toei can do is this crappy CGI fire. But I was just as happy it wasn't Golden SS4; that would've been dire in the long run.

Tangent, has this forum ever discussed the culture of Western fans and our general obsession with making DBZ out to be far more hypermasculine and "badass" than it is? I mean, that seems like a silly question with the likes of VegettoEX and Kunzait_83 around to constantly remind people about what the series really is, but I wanna know if there's any good threads to see any breakdowns and discussions about it.
As a black guy myself around many other DB-obsessed black guys growing up, they are almost all EXACTLY who you'd imagine a dubbie to be, taking this macro to heart and being outright offended by any suggestion DB isn't that.

This mention of Super Saiyan God once being a "Golden Super Saiyan 4" in the fandom's mind just brought that to mind.
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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:24 pm

SuperSaiyaManZ94 wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:44 amThe movie's title in Japanese is "Super Saiyan Son Goku" even though he didn't actually become one in the series itself until days later for the manga and several months in the anime.
Toriyama may have told Toei that Goku would've transformed before the movie's debut, only for things certain things to take longer than expected. The plan may have been to capitalize on the newly introduced Ssj, only for the movie to release before due to Toriyama's plans changing.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:42 pm

Toei’s decision to call the movie “Super Saiyan Son Goku” was clearly an attempt to try and preempt the transformation’s appearance in the manga. The manga had been generating quite a bit of hype surrounding the Super Saiyan concept at that point, so Toei obviously realized they could make some decent money if they titled one of their movies around that, and released it before the transformation officially appeared in the manga.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by pepd » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:56 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pm Funny as hell, Super Saiyan God appears to have actually been something like False Super Saiyan
Image
Still with red hair, but otherwise a very FSS-looking color scheme, aura, and general design. Almost like a False-False Super Saiyan.
I think I prefer this color hair. Is it from Toriyama? I would like an excuse to use it

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Matches Malone » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:01 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pmPeople at the time thought Super Saiyan God was going to be this over-the-type Dragon Ball AF-esque Golden Super Saiyan 4, and for years afterwards were angry that it WASN'T. I mean, up until the form actually debuted, every single video on YouTube, every single piece of fanart, everything to do with Super Saiyan God portrayed it as a Golden SS4, so seeing the actual form just made me go "Uh oh."
I was one of the fans thinking it'd be this over the top form, but then was completely shocked at how simple it looked. I think the main reason people didn't like it, including myself, is that we spent months with a specific idea in our heads, only to see the complete opposite out of nowhere. With that said, SsjG has become one of, if not my favorite form over the years, as not only is it a unique form, it lines up perfectly with other aspects of DB. I can't help but facepalm anytime I read "SsjG is just a recolor", as that couldn't be further form the truth. SsjB however is a form I never managed to wrap my head around, despite years passing since its introduction.
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pmHas this forum ever discussed the culture of Western fans and our general obsession with making DBZ out to be far more hypermasculine and "badass" than it is?
I'd assume it has, especially with how long its been around. If I'm not mistaking, this site has been around since the 90s-00s, which is when DB had the most misconceptions surrounding it in the west.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:09 pm

I just realised something... in Super Dragon Ball Heroes there's the "Super Saiyan Berserk" corrupted transformation for Goku that removes his pupils, tans his skin and gives him a dark aura. It's only featured for like... five underwhelming seconds, but I wonder if it was included as a sneaky reference to Pseudo Super Saiyan. Maybe they could retcon PSSJ to being the result of Goku getting corrupted by Slug's Demon Clan energy or some nonsense like that.
Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pm As a black guy myself around many other DB-obsessed black guys growing up, they are almost all EXACTLY who you'd imagine a dubbie to be, taking this macro to heart and being outright offended by any suggestion DB isn't that.
Painfully accurate. I think the culture has changed somewhat, but there's still loads of content out there pandering to the stereotypical Western fan demographic, like MaSTAR Media's godawful Anime War series which I would have completely forgotten about if someone hadn't awakened my suppressed memories of its existence.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:12 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:08 pmFunny as hell, Super Saiyan God appears to have actually been something like False Super Saiyan
It would be Super Saiyan God with Ultra Instinct hair but red. I like the change in the hairstyle but without the need to recolor it. Ultra Instinct would probably have another hairstyle had they given it to Super Saiyan God in the first place. Would like to see how Vegeta would look like with that messy hair, by the way.

Anyway, great post overall, Yuli Ban! I liked the three options you provided, gave me some ideas to think about.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:38 am

One extra response: to those who say that this might've been Toriyama's original idea for Super Saiyan, you're basically right. Recall that Toriyama's idea to make Super Saiyan golden-haired genuinely was a late decision. We only have golden-haired Super Saiyan because it was easier and faster to draw in a blackblack-and-white manga. No need to spend time inking in black hair. Plus it was easy to tell that a change had occurred; loads of information with very few strokes. Basically all around a good design choice that could only have happened in a B&W manga (because let's be honest, if Dragon Ball was a full-color manga from the start, we'd have gotten fruity-colored transformations long, long before now).

False Super Saiyan is a look as to what Super Saiyan would have been had Toriyama not decided to capitalize on a brilliant bit of laziness. Because think about it in more colorless terms. All it looks like then is exactly what Kaioken sometimes does, except presumably without pupils. So no color in the hair made sense. If you saw Goku using the form against Slug on the pages of the manga, what would communicate to you that Goku transformed and didn't just use a particularly wrathful Kaioken ×20?

Heck, False Super Saiyan might've even been the reason why we got golden-haired Super Saiyan once Toriyama saw it'd have been too easy to mix up Super Saiyan with Kaioken in the manga, even if we've never gotten a statement about it. It's fleetingly possible.
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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by MasenkoHA » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:05 am

I always liked it better than the canon version.

But what was Toei smoking when they showed it off for 3 seconds only for regular Goku to finish off the movie villain with a genki dama for the third time in a row?

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by MyVisionity » Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:32 pm

I think any more time spent on the transformation during the movie would have been too much.

I agree that maybe Goku could have finished off Slug in that form. Kind of like how he transforms at the very end of Movie 5 and defeats Coola.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Cursed Lemon » Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:34 pm

So what's the time frame between when this movie came out vs. when super saiyan officially appeared in the manga/anime?
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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Yuli Ban » Tue Jun 29, 2021 5:20 pm

Yuli Ban wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:38 am One extra response: to those who say that this might've been Toriyama's original idea for Super Saiyan, you're basically right. Recall that Toriyama's idea to make Super Saiyan golden-haired genuinely was a late decision. We only have golden-haired Super Saiyan because it was easier and faster to draw in a blackblack-and-white manga. No need to spend time inking in black hair. Plus it was easy to tell that a change had occurred; loads of information with very few strokes. Basically all around a good design choice that could only have happened in a B&W manga (because let's be honest, if Dragon Ball was a full-color manga from the start, we'd have gotten fruity-colored transformations long, long before now).

False Super Saiyan is a look as to what Super Saiyan would have been had Toriyama not decided to capitalize on a brilliant bit of laziness. Because think about it in more colorless terms. All it looks like then is exactly what Kaioken sometimes does, except presumably without pupils. So no color in the hair made sense. If you saw Goku using the form against Slug on the pages of the manga, what would communicate to you that Goku transformed and didn't just use a particularly wrathful Kaioken ×20?

Heck, False Super Saiyan might've even been the reason why we got golden-haired Super Saiyan once Toriyama saw it'd have been too easy to mix up Super Saiyan with Kaioken in the manga, even if we've never gotten a statement about it. It's fleetingly possible.
Case in point:
Image

Latter is Kaioken (vs Ginyu). But in the manga, that easily could have been what False Super Saiyan (e.g. pre-finalized Super Saiyan) looked like as well. Toriyama likes simple designs (for good reason), but this would be downright confusing.


Building off that, this is what pre-finalized/False Super Saiyan would've canonically looked like without the weird coloring Toei was doing at that time:
Image
Basically if Toriyama decided against coloring the hair white/gold.


However, if that lighting WAS inexplicably a part of the form (before it became the fanon-accepted trait of the form), this is probably what Super Saiyan would've looked like if movie 4 was followed up on in canon (and I edited the color of some anime screens because I'm going under the assumption that the specific lighting conditions in movie 4 were, as aforementioned, a specific color palette Toei was playing with and that FSSJ would look different in daylight— there are no such "corrected" color drawings of FSSJ so I had to do this myself):
Image
Image
Image
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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Shaddy » Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:15 pm

Nah, it's boring, lacks a proper identity and has no real significance outside of the movie it's in.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by Grimlock » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:07 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:05 amBut what was Toei smoking when they showed it off for 3 seconds only for regular Goku to finish off the movie villain with a genki dama for the third time in a row?
Maybe Toei somehow knew Toriyama would come up with his own transformation which could turn out differently from what they did, so they opted to decrease its screentime? Who knows, but yeah... I'd very much liked to see more of False Super Saiyan.
Cursed Lemon wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:34 pm So what's the time frame between when this movie came out vs. when super saiyan officially appeared in the manga/anime?
Goku transforms into Super Saiyan in 26 March 1991 in the manga, while Movie 4 was released in 09 March 1991. We don't know when the movie production started.

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Re: False Super Saiyan Appreciation Thread

Post by SuperSaiyaManZ94 » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:01 pm

Goku transforms into Super Saiyan in 26 March 1991 in the manga, while Movie 4 was released in 09 March 1991. We don't know when the movie production started.
Yes the film came out in March '91 while the Freeza arc was still airing, so given that i would have to guess the movie was in production from roughly December 1990 until maybe around early February 1991. It's likely that the DB/DBZ movies were produced and animated at least a couple months prior to their premiere at the respective spring and summer (aside from DB movie 1 which released in December '86) Toei Cartoon Festival/Anime Fair.

It's possible that the movie was in production while the anime was on hiatus over the Christmas break, so the animation staff would've had plenty of time to work on it.
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