Android 17 was never SSG/SSB tier in the anime ToP before the fight with Anilaza

[dragonball0900]

This might seem weird, but I've been watching the anime version of the tournament of power, very closely this time, and noticed that 17 was nerfed at various points in the tournament, and never showed any feat that puts him at god/blue level UNTIL the fight with Anilaza came. On the contrary, it seems that he was always portrayed to be Base Saiyan tier, and was nerfed throughout all of the tournament until the final fights against Anilaza and Universe 11 came. Literally, every fight before Anilaza that 17 had in the tournament are feats that even Base Goku/Vegeta/Gohan could do.

Now, this is excluding the fight he had with Goku on the islands before the tournament (we know that 17 was definitely god/blue tier there since it was a sparring match against Goku’s transformations). But let’s check all the 10 fights 17 had during the ACTUAL tournament, but BEFORE the fights with Anilaza and Universe 11:

• Android 17 vs Hermila (U2): Hermila is total fodder. His ki blasts were ineffective against 17’s barrier. So not so much going on here.

• Android 17 vs Dyrasem (U10): Again. Fodder. Even Piccolo was shown to be far stronger than this U10 guy in both anime and manga.

• Android 17 vs Kahseral (U11): We know who Kahseral is. The general of the Pride Troopers. We thought he would be something special in the tournament, but he wasn’t. Even 18 was able to dodge his attacks easily. The manga further goes with this guy as being below even Base Goku. The only good things Kahseral can do is when he works with his teammates. This time, he was all by himself, and got stomped.

• Android 17 vs Kakunsa (U2) and Bikal (U2): This is where the fun begins, and what proves 17 to be base saiyan tier at this part of the tournament. 17 struggled more with Kakunsa than with Kahseral, and had a much better fight. One would say Kakunsa was close to 17’s “blue tier” strength. But that soon gets automatically contradicted when we see Base Goku dominating Rozie and had her cornered. So unless you believe Kakunsa is WAY stronger than her partner, it’s clear that 17’s opponent was simply fodder that even Base Goku could defeat. Bikal (the girl with the wings) performed much worse, so there’s no problem here.

• Android 17 vs Ribrianne (U2): And here’s even more. 17 was fighting evenly against Ribrianne, and 17’s barrier was literally broken by her. How could that work if later on we see strong guys like Toppo not being able to such feat? That means 17 was holding back against Ribrianne, and never used his “blue tier” powers. It’s all proved later on when Base Goku fights Ribrianne and wasn’t even struggling, even when she transformed. That also means SSJ Vegeta was holding back against Ribrianne earlier on. Toei seems to like her. That’s why she got a lot of screentime and gave her many outlier scenes here and there.

• Android 17 vs Katopesla (U3): Katopesla was nothing but fodder until his final transformation against SSJ Vegeta. Here is no exception. He was fast, but wasn’t strong, which was a problem when facing against 17. 18 said she could have handled him too after seeing how weak he is. But given how fast he was to her previously, it only means Katopesla was just fast, but wasn’t strong. We see how he transformed later on, but even that form wasn’t anything against Base Vegeta…

• Android 17 vs Rozie (U2): Just like Kakunsa, he beat Rozie in more or less the same way, if not easier. This is around the 18 vs Ribrianne fight. He wasn’t anywhere near blue tier here giving that for a moment he was being held by a U3 robot, who is certainly nowhere near 17’s full power we see later on against people with higher levels like Toppo and Jiren.

• Android 17, Android 18 and Tired Base Goku vs Zirloin (U2), Rabanra (U2) and Zarbuto (U2): Here is more evidence that he was just base tier. This is when U2 was eliminated. He fought equally against a version of a character he previously easily defeated, and had his barrier broken again by these U2 copies of the Kamikaze Fireballs. And then we see him not being able to even stand up against the Pretty Black Hole, while a TIRED BASE Goku could manage to move. This episode nerfed 17 the most.

• Android 17 vs Damon (U4): Nothing to explain here, since we know Damon’s gimmick is his size, but once they found him he was nothing but just a little bug (too bad Piccolo hadn’t discovered this sooner).

• Android 17 and 18 vs Viara (U3): 17 was clearly nerfed (once again) to be on par with his sister. Otherwise, he would have defeated this robot easily. We know that these robots are somewhere around base saiyan tier, and were only a threat either when there are three of them together (like against the saiyans), and when they merged into one being (Koichiarator). But aside from that, these robots were nothing special. The only thing this robot in particular had is his durability, which I’m sure is nothing compared to god/blue tier levels of power 17 manages to reach at full strength.

And that’s it. We know what happens against Anilaza and Universe 11. Those are the only moments from the tournament when 17 was actually shown to really matter (and it’s no surprise given the feats he had against Toppo and Jiren). But before that, he was basically the typical “Base Saiyan” type character. Someone who holds back his strength to considerably degrees until the actual fun begins. And this seems funny because 17 is an android and should be going at full strength all the time. But hey, this is Toei we are talking about, right?

[Jord]

In order to enjoy Super you should forget about the concept of Power levels or any semblance of logic regarding to power increases. This not only manifests itself with 17 but also with

• Roshi being suddenly capable to join the fight against Frieza and then for survival after acknowledging he was too weak to add anything to fights at the beginning of DBZ.

• Frieza just training for a while and becoming stronger than Cell, Buu, etc.

Super is more focused on bring back popular characters from Z like Roshi, Frieza and Trunks instead of showing growth. They simply get random power ups and then are able to hang with the current characters.

[MechaTrunks]

• Frieza just training for a while and becoming stronger than Cell, Buu, etc.

Sorry but this is completely in character and coherent with DBZ. Freeza had the power he had wihtout having had a real fight in his whole life. It's only obvious that if he started to train his power would multiply by 10-15 like it did, and if we compare to Goku and the gains he had through his multiple trainings, he in fact should continue to power up at immense speed.

The problem now would be if Freezer stays at this PL now that he is motivated to train, not him becoming as strong as he did.

Regards.

[Mike XL]

I always thought 17s power was pretty overrated. Goku went SSB against him, but all that meant was that 17 was stronger than SSJ 2 and he needed to up his power, SSJ 3 is an obsolete form that drains energy needlessly so it makes sense that he would skip that. Against Jiren, he took a back seat to a badly damaged/fatigued Freeza who did most of the head to head fighting, even commentating how tough both Freeza and Jiren were, despite them both being nowhere near full strength. While 17 was damaged at that point, his power should have still near full strength as Androids don't fatigue. Even against Aniraza, he used of his barrier and targeted Anirazas weak spot, it really wasn't about his power. If I had to place him, I'd say he was decently above Piccolo but comfortably behind Gohan and especially Freeza.

[Koitsukai]

I do remember seeing 17 struggled with some low life in the earlier parts of the ToP. It's hard to say how strong 17 is, a real blue level character like Toppo was out of his league, even though he made Goku go blue(Mike XL brings a fair point), his Aniraza win doesn't really make him clear-cut blue level, after all he did benefit from 5 other people holding Aniraza down and got the edge thanks to his OP barrier and his enemy's weakspot.

I guess enduring so much from Jiren is the greatest accomplishment on his part.

[ZombieVito]

And this seems funny because 17 is an android and should be going at full strength all the time. But hey, this is Toei we are talking about, right?

Sure if he wants to kill his opponents.

This is a tournament when you cannot kill. 17 can't go all out because a single mistake would mean he's out of the tournament.

Also I remember that with a U2 girl he was learning her fighting style while fighting her. Kinda hard to do that when he one shots her.

He's obviously Blue tier but not on the upper level of it with the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Toppo or Goku Black.

[dragonball0900]

And this seems funny because 17 is an android and should be going at full strength all the time. But hey, this is Toei we are talking about, right?

Sure if he wants to kill his opponents.

This is a tournament when you cannot kill. 17 can't go all out because a single mistake would mean he's out of the tournament.

Also I remember that with a U2 girl he was learning her fighting style while fighting her. Kinda hard to do that when he one shots her.

He's obviously Blue tier but not on the upper level of it with the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Toppo or Goku Black.

Yeah I agree. It's obvious that 17 here is blue tier.

But the thing is, he didn't use that blue tier strength at all throughout the fights, and was nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier throughout the whole tournament before Anilaza entered.

Android 17 got the same treatment as Android 18 and Piccolo, who were also nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier plenty of times during the tournament, despite being much stronger than that. That's when trying to analyze what happens in the anime very closely.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah I agree. It's obvious that 17 here is blue tier.

But the thing is, he didn't use that blue tier strength at all throughout the fights, and was nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier throughout the whole tournament before Anilaza entered.

Android 17 got the same treatment as Android 18 and Piccolo, who were also nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier plenty of times during the tournament, despite being much stronger than that. That's when trying to analyze what happens in the anime very closely.

But Piccolo is base tier. 18 even weaker than that.

I don't think 17 not going all out during the tournament is nerfing him.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah I agree. It's obvious that 17 here is blue tier.

But the thing is, he didn't use that blue tier strength at all throughout the fights, and was nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier throughout the whole tournament before Anilaza entered.

Android 17 got the same treatment as Android 18 and Piccolo, who were also nerfed to be Base Saiyan tier plenty of times during the tournament, despite being much stronger than that. That's when trying to analyze what happens in the anime very closely.

But Piccolo is base tier. 18 even weaker than that.

I don't think 17 not going all out during the tournament is nerfing him.

I doubt Piccolo and 18 were intended to be base tier. We have Krillin and Max Roshi being close to base tier as seen and proven in both the recruitment arc and in the tournament itself. If Piccolo and 18 were base tier, they would be weaker than them. And that wouldn't make sense. We even see them both doing feats that a base saiyan wouldn't do, like stomping SSJ2 Gohan (who is far far stronger than any Trio of Danger, one of them who would have been beaten by Base Gohan if he wasn't poisoned), fighting one of the U6 namekians (after they released their full power) for a brief moment, or defeating Ribrianne at her final form. They were nerfed most of the time to be base tier, just like how Android 17 was nerfed to be base tier throughout all of the tournament (just look how 17 wasn't able to stand up against the Pretty Black Hole, while a TIRED Base Goku could achieve that feat, it's clear that he was nerfed).

[ZombieVito]

I doubt Piccolo and 18 were intended to be base tier. We have Krillin and Max Roshi being close to base tier as seen and proven in both the recruitment arc and in the tournament itself. If Piccolo and 18 were base tier, they would be weaker than them. And that wouldn't make sense. We even see them both doing feats that a base saiyan wouldn't do, like stomping SSJ2 Gohan (who is far far stronger than any Trio of Danger, one of them who would have been beaten by Base Gohan if he wasn't poisoned), fighting one of the U6 namekians (after they released their full power) for a brief moment, or defeating Ribrianne at her final form. They were nerfed most of the time to be base tier, just like how Android 17 was nerfed to be base tier throughout all of the tournament (just look how 17 wasn't able to stand up against the Pretty Black Hole, while a TIRED Base Goku could achieve that feat, it's clear that he was nerfed).

Kuririn and Roshi aren't remotely close to base Goku. They are confirmed to be weaker than the Super Saiyan kids in official material. You also take the recruitment fights way too seriously. It's confirmed Goku was just testing them in their fights.

Gohan is exactly as strong as his Boo arc self before training with Piccolo in E88. This is confirmed in the very same episode. After their training base Gohan is finally on base tier with Piccolo not far behind. This is further shown in the tournament when they perform similarly.

17 wasn't nerfed. Goku just has more experience with higher gravity. The androids never did. This is exactly as when Trunks couldn't take the 100 times gravity while training with Vegeta. Something Goku at 90,000 easily could yet Trunks at 10,000,000+ couldn't.

[dragonball0900]

I doubt Piccolo and 18 were intended to be base tier. We have Krillin and Max Roshi being close to base tier as seen and proven in both the recruitment arc and in the tournament itself. If Piccolo and 18 were base tier, they would be weaker than them. And that wouldn't make sense. We even see them both doing feats that a base saiyan wouldn't do, like stomping SSJ2 Gohan (who is far far stronger than any Trio of Danger, one of them who would have been beaten by Base Gohan if he wasn't poisoned), fighting one of the U6 namekians (after they released their full power) for a brief moment, or defeating Ribrianne at her final form. They were nerfed most of the time to be base tier, just like how Android 17 was nerfed to be base tier throughout all of the tournament (just look how 17 wasn't able to stand up against the Pretty Black Hole, while a TIRED Base Goku could achieve that feat, it's clear that he was nerfed).

Kuririn and Roshi aren't remotely close to base Goku. They are confirmed to be weaker than the Super Saiyan kids in official material. You also take the recruitment fights way too seriously. It's confirmed Goku was just testing them in their fights.

Gohan is exactly as strong as his Boo arc self before training with Piccolo in E88. This is confirmed in the very same episode. After their training base Gohan is finally on base tier with Piccolo not far behind. This is further shown in the tournament when they perform similarly.

17 wasn't nerfed. Goku just has more experience with higher gravity. The androids never did. This is exactly as when Trunks couldn't take the 100 times gravity while training with Vegeta. Something Goku at 90,000 easily could yet Trunks at 10,000,000+ couldn't.

They were never said to be weaker than Goten and Trunks in the anime. That interview only mentioned why Goten and Trunks were not chosen when they could easily turned SSJ. It doesn't mean strength. Plus didn't the narrator said the ones on the team are the strongest of Universe 7? That means that the earthlings were boosted to be above Goten and Trunks. Hence why they can easily compete against Base Goku. Goku was only testing Krillin when he went SSB. Before that he needed SSJ to counter Krillin's techniques and skill. That shows Krillin was not far below Base Goku. And Goku directly said he was feeling excited when fighting against Roshi, and said that was the strength Roshi was using when not holding back. Narrative wise, Roshi is supposed to be close to Base Goku tier.

Gohan was never said to be on the same level as in the Buu Saga. They were talking about returning his Ultimate power back, since Gohan had no longer access to his Ultimate form until that point. Remember that Gohan got stronger when training with Piccolo before the U6 tournament, and then could force Goku to transform into SSJ during their fight post Zamasu Saga. That means that Gohan was already reaching that tier, but he still wasn't strong enough since he didn't have his Ultimate power up.

Androids have infinite energy, they should easily be able to stand up. And it doesn't matter if they are not used to. Trunks was at least able to move. 17 is supposed to be thousands of times stronger than Base Goku, let alone a Tired Base Goku. I understand about 18, but 17 should have easily being able to stand up, yet Tired Base Goku was the only one able to do that. If 17 was blue tier in that scene, he would have easily stand up no matter the gravity, and helped SSB Goku against the Pretty Black Hole. Being not used to a gravity despite the fact that someone thousands of times weaker than you can stand up easily is no excuse.

And that is not the only feat that proves 17 was nerfed. I already mentioned lots of ToP fights from 17 in the opening post that shows he was nerfed to be at the level of Base Goku and 18 (who was also nerfed) to fight alongside them against people at that tier. Just like how Piccolo was also nerfed to fight at the same level as Base Gohan. Android 18 and Piccolo should be at least weaker than SSJ tier, but that's it. I doubt they were intended to be Base Saiyan tier since that would make them pointless in the tournament and would make them weaker than the earthlings (who clearly proved to be at that level).

[ZombieVito]

They were never said to be weaker than Goten and Trunks in the anime. That interview only mentioned why Goten and Trunks were not chosen when they could easily turned SSJ. It doesn't mean strength. Plus didn't the narrator said the ones on the team are the strongest of Universe 7? That means that the earthlings were boosted to be above Goten and Trunks. Hence why they can easily compete against Base Goku. Goku was only testing Krillin when he went SSB. Before that he needed SSJ to counter Krillin's techniques and skill. That shows Krillin was not far below Base Goku. And Goku directly said he was feeling excited when fighting against Roshi, and said that was the strength Roshi was using when not holding back. Narrative wise, Roshi is supposed to be close to Base Goku tier.

Gohan was never said to be on the same level as in the Buu Saga. They were talking about returning his Ultimate power back, since Gohan had no longer access to his Ultimate form until that point. Remember that Gohan got stronger when training with Piccolo before the U6 tournament, and then could force Goku to transform into SSJ during their fight post Zamasu Saga. That means that Gohan was already reaching that tier, but he still wasn't strong enough since he didn't have his Ultimate power up.

Androids have infinite energy, they should easily be able to stand up. And it doesn't matter if they are not used to. Trunks was at least able to move. 17 is supposed to be thousands of times stronger than Base Goku, let alone a Tired Base Goku. I understand about 18, but 17 should have easily being able to stand up, yet Tired Base Goku was the only one able to do that. If 17 was blue tier in that scene, he would have easily stand up no matter the gravity, and helped SSB Goku against the Pretty Black Hole. Being not used to a gravity despite the fact that someone thousands of times weaker than you can stand up easily is no excuse.

And that is not the only feat that proves 17 was nerfed. I already mentioned lots of ToP fights from 17 in the opening post that shows he was nerfed to be at the level of Base Goku and 18 (who was also nerfed) to fight alongside them against people at that tier. Just like how Piccolo was also nerfed to fight at the same level as Base Gohan. Android 18 and Piccolo should be at least weaker than SSJ tier, but that's it. I doubt they were intended to be Base Saiyan tier since that would make them pointless in the tournament and would make them weaker than the earthlings (who clearly proved to be at that level).

It was about power and no the humans are nowhere near base tier. You are taking these fights way too seriously. Writers have said they were just warm ups/tests. They are meaningless for powerscaling because of it.

Gohan never forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan, this is pure headcanon. The fact is that Gohan didn't return to his Boo arc power until episode 88. It's right there on the episode. Please watch it.

It doesn't matter if 17 is x times stronger. He never has experienced gravity that surpasses that of Earth. He's not going to be able to move.

Again. 17 holding out on people during the tournament is not nerfing him. How hard is this to understand?

[dragonball0900]

They were never said to be weaker than Goten and Trunks in the anime. That interview only mentioned why Goten and Trunks were not chosen when they could easily turned SSJ. It doesn't mean strength. Plus didn't the narrator said the ones on the team are the strongest of Universe 7? That means that the earthlings were boosted to be above Goten and Trunks. Hence why they can easily compete against Base Goku. Goku was only testing Krillin when he went SSB. Before that he needed SSJ to counter Krillin's techniques and skill. That shows Krillin was not far below Base Goku. And Goku directly said he was feeling excited when fighting against Roshi, and said that was the strength Roshi was using when not holding back. Narrative wise, Roshi is supposed to be close to Base Goku tier.

Gohan was never said to be on the same level as in the Buu Saga. They were talking about returning his Ultimate power back, since Gohan had no longer access to his Ultimate form until that point. Remember that Gohan got stronger when training with Piccolo before the U6 tournament, and then could force Goku to transform into SSJ during their fight post Zamasu Saga. That means that Gohan was already reaching that tier, but he still wasn't strong enough since he didn't have his Ultimate power up.

Androids have infinite energy, they should easily be able to stand up. And it doesn't matter if they are not used to. Trunks was at least able to move. 17 is supposed to be thousands of times stronger than Base Goku, let alone a Tired Base Goku. I understand about 18, but 17 should have easily being able to stand up, yet Tired Base Goku was the only one able to do that. If 17 was blue tier in that scene, he would have easily stand up no matter the gravity, and helped SSB Goku against the Pretty Black Hole. Being not used to a gravity despite the fact that someone thousands of times weaker than you can stand up easily is no excuse.

And that is not the only feat that proves 17 was nerfed. I already mentioned lots of ToP fights from 17 in the opening post that shows he was nerfed to be at the level of Base Goku and 18 (who was also nerfed) to fight alongside them against people at that tier. Just like how Piccolo was also nerfed to fight at the same level as Base Gohan. Android 18 and Piccolo should be at least weaker than SSJ tier, but that's it. I doubt they were intended to be Base Saiyan tier since that would make them pointless in the tournament and would make them weaker than the earthlings (who clearly proved to be at that level).

It was about power and no the humans are nowhere near base tier. You are taking these fights way too seriously. Writers have said they were just warm ups/tests. They are meaningless for powerscaling because of it.

Gohan never forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan, this is pure headcanon. The fact is that Gohan didn't return to his Boo arc power until episode 88. It's right there on the episode. Please watch it.

It doesn't matter if 17 is x times stronger. He never has experienced gravity that surpasses that of Earth. He's not going to be able to move.

Again. 17 holding out on people during the tournament is not nerfing him. How hard is this to understand?

The writers never said that. They only said that Goku holds back in blue during his fights to test their opponents. That's only about the usage of the blue form. In no way the writers said Goku was holding back in Base form against Krillin or Roshi. Remember, Goku was feeling excited when he was clashing his fists with Roshi. That's indication that humans were base saiyan tier. And let's not forget the feats they had in the tournament. Ganos was able to block punches from Base Goku. Max Power Roshi beat Ganos in his strongest form, and Ganos is supposed to be no push over in Universe 4. The narrator also stated those 10 were the strongest fighters in U7. The whole point of the interview was about trying to explain why Toriyama didn't choose Goten and Trunks for the tournament if they could turn into SSJ. It's basically an out of universe explanation. And it's not even about the anime itself. The anime was not even written directly by Toriyama, and its power scaling is far too messy. The earthlings being boosted to that level is clearly one of them.

Goku had to transform during his fight with the Great Saiyaman. Why the need to transform if he could just fight in base? This was not to "test Gohan's courage" like when using blue. It's obvious that Goku needed SSJ against Gohan. The whole point of Episode 88 was to give Gohan his Ultimate form back. That's what Piccolo was telling Gohan during their training, that Gohan needed his Ultimate form again (aka, the power he used against Buu) so that he could be at his highest peak.

There were many characters in the past that had never experienced gravity before and were still able to move easily. Remember Gohan when he entered the RoSaT for the first time? He had never experienced high gravity before. He noticed the gravity was slightly heavier in the RoSaT, but that's it. And that is a Gohan that is obviously far stronger than someone who can easily move on 10 times gravity. The gap between 17 and the Pretty Black Hole gravity should be bigger than the gap between Android Saga Gohan and the 10 times gravity. There's no excuse for 17. He has infinite energy, so he should struggle FAR less.

17 literally struggled against fodder during the tournament. He even had his barrier broken plenty of times against U2 fodder. Yet later on when he WAS actually Blue tier, his barrier could not be broken by bigger threats like Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren. 17 was blatantly shown to be on the same tier as Base Goku throughout the tournament, fighting opponents that Base Goku could also fight. The same is with Piccolo, being able to fight people that Base Gohan could fight. Of course, you can argue they were suppressed to that level (aka holding back), and I am fine with that. I won't disagree. But the point is that they are actually much stronger than those outlier feats they showed, and it is clearly proven.

[ZombieVito]

The writers never said that. They only said that Goku holds back in blue during his fights to test their opponents. That's only about the usage of the blue form. In no way the writers said Goku was holding back in Base form against Krillin or Roshi. Remember, Goku was feeling excited when he was clashing his fists with Roshi. That's indication that humans were base saiyan tier. And let's not forget the feats they had in the tournament. Ganos was able to block punches from Base Goku. Max Power Roshi beat Ganos in his strongest form, and Ganos is supposed to be no push over in Universe 4. The narrator also stated those 10 were the strongest fighters in U7. The whole point of the interview was about trying to explain why Toriyama didn't choose Goten and Trunks for the tournament if they could turn into SSJ. It's basically an out of universe explanation. And it's not even about the anime itself. The anime was not even written directly by Toriyama, and its power scaling is far too messy. The earthlings being boosted to that level is clearly one of them.

Goku had to transform during his fight with the Great Saiyaman. Why the need to transform if he could just fight in base? This was not to "test Gohan's courage" like when using blue. It's obvious that Goku needed SSJ against Gohan. The whole point of Episode 88 was to give Gohan his Ultimate form back. That's what Piccolo was telling Gohan during their training, that Gohan needed his Ultimate form again (aka, the power he used against Buu) so that he could be at his highest peak.

There were many characters in the past that had never experienced gravity before and were still able to move easily. Remember Gohan when he entered the RoSaT for the first time? He had never experienced high gravity before. He noticed the gravity was slightly heavier in the RoSaT, but that's it. And that is a Gohan that is obviously far stronger than someone who can easily move on 10 times gravity. The gap between 17 and the Pretty Black Hole gravity should be bigger than the gap between Android Saga Gohan and the 10 times gravity. There's no excuse for 17. He has infinite energy, so he should struggle FAR less.

17 literally struggled against fodder during the tournament. He even had his barrier broken plenty of times against U2 fodder. Yet later on when he WAS actually Blue tier, his barrier could not be broken by bigger threats like Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren. 17 was blatantly shown to be on the same tier as Base Goku throughout the tournament, fighting opponents that Base Goku could also fight. The same is with Piccolo, being able to fight people that Base Gohan could fight. Of course, you can argue they were suppressed to that level (aka holding back), and I am fine with that. I won't disagree. But the point is that they are actually much stronger than those outlier feats they showed, and it is clearly proven.

This is headcanon the post. I'm done debating you.

[dragonball0900]

I'm only stating what I see from the anime (as well as such basic logic regarding DB gravity levels). Besides, the anime itself is already far too inconsistent with its power scaling, debates with heavily opposing sides like this will obviously happen. Agree to disagree then.

[BWri]

And this seems funny because 17 is an android and should be going at full strength all the time. But hey, this is Toei we are talking about, right?

Sure if he wants to kill his opponents.

This is a tournament when you cannot kill. 17 can't go all out because a single mistake would mean he's out of the tournament.

Also I remember that with a U2 girl he was learning her fighting style while fighting her. Kinda hard to do that when he one shots her.

He's obviously Blue tier but not on the upper level of it with the likes of Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, Toppo or Goku Black.

Yeah, there isn't any nerfing going on. Most of the fighters were holding back to either conserve energy, which 17 doesn't have to worry about, or to keep from killing their opposition. It's exactly what ZombieVito says there.

[Peach]

Yes, he was. He pushed Goku into going SSB when he was recruited. Goku mentioned in the anime and manga both that he didn't intend to use that form. And 17 was holding back when they stopped the fight.

[dragonball0900]

Yeah, there isn't any nerfing going on. Most of the fighters were holding back to either conserve energy, which 17 doesn't have to worry about, or to keep from killing their opposition. It's exactly what ZombieVito says there.

Then explain how 17 wasn't able to handle the gravity of the Pretty Black Hole while a Tired Base Goku could, or why his barriers kept being broken by U2 fodder when later on post-Anilaza fight it manages to resist attacks from Anilaza, Toppo and Jiren.

I don't mind if you say he was holding back/he was nerfed. I'm totally fine with that idea that he was holding back. But if you only watched episode 118 without any context from other episodes, you would think he was weaker than Base Goku in the tournament, given how his feats were similar, if not worse. 17 (as well as 18 and Piccolo) were nerfed throughout the tournament to fight alongside base saiyan characters like Goku and Gohan. Otherwise, 17 would have finished with all the U2 contestants with one punch.

I'm saying this since I've been watching the anime tournament of power countless of times since they keep airing it on TV. And because of that, it's easier to spot many of the inconsistencies and feats of the characters that the anime gives us.

Yes, he was. He pushed Goku into going SSB when he was recruited. Goku mentioned in the anime and manga both that he didn't intend to use that form. And 17 was holding back when they stopped the fight.

If you read my topic, I said that the 17 vs Goku fight on the islands was the exception. It's right there in my opening post.

I'm talking about 17 in the tournament itself. He was nerfed/suppressed in a level around Base Saiyan tier throughout the entire time until Anilaza came along.

[dragonball0900]

Also, "17 wouldn't go full power or otherwise he would kill his opponents".

He doesn't need to be full power. He could have easily beaten Ribrianne, the last 3 U2 members from Episode 118, and the U3 robot he was fighting with alongside 18, without even killing them if he uses more of his power.

But instead, he was fighting evenly against them. That automatically means he was nerfed, otherwise he would have just knocked them out without using that much force and throw them off the arena.

[DestructoDisc]

This is headcanon the post.

Well duh. Pretty much everything said here or in any other strength related thread is headcanon. We can say whatever we want but it's a known fact that Super is an inconsistent mess when it comes to power levels (heck, Dragon Ball in general has been that ever since the Buu saga, hell you can argue that it has been like that since the Cell saga). It's why these debates exist. Unless Toriyama himself comes out and clarifies the strength of each and every character in Super, all we can do is build our own headcanons.