Question regarding Super Saiyan 2 and a Herms translation

[Victorious]

I don't know how often Herms posts here but i've got a question about how he translates a section on Super Saiyan 2 Goku and Majin Vegeta.

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P6.1-2
Context: after Majin Boo quickly reaches full power
Kaioshin: “Th-that’s impossible…Wh-why has Goku’s damage energy [filled it up] already…!?”
Gohan: “…I-I know…! Father is fighting at a level that has further surpassed Super Saiyan…Vegeta probably is too…If two incredible powers like that clash, th-the damage is astounding too…!”

So does that mean that Vegeta and Goku are two steps up from Super Saiyan or just one? They are fighting at Super Saiyan 2. But if Super Saiyan 2 further surpasses Super Saiyan does that mean they were already in a form that surpassed Super Saiyan before going Super Saiyan 2? Or does it mean he's just going further than Super Saiyan?



I notice Herms does not use further surpasses when Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2 at the Budokai.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P3.2
Context: before Gohan becomes a Super Saiyan 2
Gohan: “Well then, I’ll become one, just like you want, though I don’t know why…To top it off, should I go so far as to become a Super Saiyan that has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall?”

So what's the deal here?

[Magnificent Ponta]

So does that mean that Vegeta and Goku are two steps up from Super Saiyan or just one? They are fighting at Super Saiyan 2. But if Super Saiyan 2 further surpasses Super Saiyan does that mean they were already in a form that surpassed Super Saiyan before going Super Saiyan 2? Or does it mean he's just going further than Super Saiyan?

I take it to mean that this statement relates Super Saiyan 2 to the 'notch' forms that do, of course, surpass Super Saiyan, but rather that SSj2 surpasses them also (so looked at that way, they are 2 steps up from SSj when in SSj2).

The other statement is, I think, just a simpler phrasing that just relates the form to SSj generically, but no less accurate for that.

[Victorious]

So does that mean that Vegeta and Goku are two steps up from Super Saiyan or just one? They are fighting at Super Saiyan 2. But if Super Saiyan 2 further surpasses Super Saiyan does that mean they were already in a form that surpassed Super Saiyan before going Super Saiyan 2? Or does it mean he's just going further than Super Saiyan?

I take it to mean that this statement relates Super Saiyan 2 to the 'notch' forms that do, of course, surpass Super Saiyan, but rather that SSj2 surpasses them also (so looked at that way, they are 2 steps up from SSj when in SSj2).

The other statement is, I think, just a simpler phrasing that just relates the form to SSj generically, but no less accurate for that.

What notch forms? Like the grade forms or FPSSJ? Is Gohan in the notch form when he's saying that to Kibito? He would have to be wouldnt he?

[Magnificent Ponta]

So does that mean that Vegeta and Goku are two steps up from Super Saiyan or just one? They are fighting at Super Saiyan 2. But if Super Saiyan 2 further surpasses Super Saiyan does that mean they were already in a form that surpassed Super Saiyan before going Super Saiyan 2? Or does it mean he's just going further than Super Saiyan?

I take it to mean that this statement relates Super Saiyan 2 to the 'notch' forms that do, of course, surpass Super Saiyan, but rather that SSj2 surpasses them also (so looked at that way, they are 2 steps up from SSj when in SSj2).

The other statement is, I think, just a simpler phrasing that just relates the form to SSj generically, but no less accurate for that.

What notch forms? Like the grade forms or FPSSJ? Is Gohan in the notch form when he's saying that to Kibito? He would have to be wouldnt he?

The grade forms. They surpass SSj, and SSj2 surpasses them in turn. So Goku and Vegeta would, by the phrasing of Herms's translation (and in fact), be 2 steps above SSj when using SSj2, technically.

I don't think Gohan ever achieves a grade form himself (unless you count SSj^FP), so he can always relate the idea of the "Super Saiyan wall" to SSj generically rather than needing to always respect and spell out the idea of grade forms when he speaks (really, anyone could without being really inaccurate - they are abandoned forms, after all).

Still, this wouldn't be the only times that SSj forms are expressed in an incredibly convoluted fashion.

[Victorious]

I take it to mean that this statement relates Super Saiyan 2 to the 'notch' forms that do, of course, surpass Super Saiyan, but rather that SSj2 surpasses them also (so looked at that way, they are 2 steps up from SSj when in SSj2).

The other statement is, I think, just a simpler phrasing that just relates the form to SSj generically, but no less accurate for that.

What notch forms? Like the grade forms or FPSSJ? Is Gohan in the notch form when he's saying that to Kibito? He would have to be wouldnt he?

The grade forms. They surpass SSj, and SSj2 surpasses them in turn. So Goku and Vegeta would, by the phrasing of Herms's translation (and in fact), be 2 steps above SSj when using SSj2, technically.

I don't think Gohan ever achieves a grade form himself (unless you count SSj^FP), so he can always relate the idea of the "Super Saiyan wall" to SSj generically rather than needing to always respect and spell out the idea of grade forms when he speaks (really, anyone could without being really inaccurate - they are abandoned forms, after all).

Still, this wouldn't be the only times that SSj forms are expressed in an incredibly convoluted fashion.

Well the problem with that is when Vegeta sees Goku blow up Yakkon as an SSJ2 he says he sees Goku has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall. He doesnt say Ohh Goku has further surpassed the Super Saiyan wall.


Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…


So yeah i'd like Herms to give an opinion on this.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Well the problem with that is when Vegeta sees Goku blow up Yakkon as an SSJ2 he says he sees Goku has surpassed the Super Saiyan wall. He doesnt say Ohh Goku has further surpassed the Super Saiyan wall.


Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P10.5
Context: after Goku makes Yakon explode with his Super Saiyan aura
Vegeta: “So that bastard Kakarot has also surpassed that wall…The Super Saiyan wall…


So yeah i'd like Herms to give an opinion on this.

Well, that's fair enough - Herms is the expert; I'm just some guy trying to apply general logic to the statements.

It's just that if it's Herms you're after, you'll probably be waiting for a long while...